Lead ban

tudderone · 26-11-2020 11:08pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Oh and just for you clay pigeon and .22 rifle hunters who think this doesn't affect them ...IT DOES!
Lead shot cant now be used within the "200-meter "buffer zone of the wetland" IE that puddle that forms at the bottom of the field where you have the clay range. Or the 90% of which in Ireland's clay ranges are in now areas that could be declared "wetlands".

Ditto you won't be shooting any bunnies out on Farmer Brown's field because of that instant forming "wetland" after a heavy downpour of rain.,as your .22 ammo is lead isn't it?:(

As for that shower of MEPs that voted against this. I suggest some serious letters and emails to them stating that their action on this has reflected on their parties who put them in Europe, and their party members in your area need not bother calling in any local, national, or EU election again and need not bother looking for your votes.

Yup, democracy my hairy white arse. If a lead ban comes in i'm done, the youngest gun i have is at least 50 years old, my shotgun was made at the latest in 1910. I refuse to deact them or other sorts of butchering. This is nothing to do with the environment, its gun-control done by the back door. :mad:

Grizzly 45 · 27-11-2020 12:20am

Dear Santa.
For Xmas 2020
Could I please have the max amount of ammo possible on my license,and a sympathetic gun dealer who will store as much ammo as I can possibly buy to keep me shooting my favourite old gun due to the lead ban?
Thanks
The Irish gun owner.

tudderone · 27-11-2020 12:38am

Watch an SI being brought in so fast your head would spin Grizz, before any stockpiling can be done. Also watch out for the little extras attached, they always squeeze a few in.

Grizzly 45 · 27-11-2020 1:17am

Better get started then...But no need to panic utterly too..How will this be enforced and checked in reality on the ground? Who will enforce this? Can it be enforced effectively too? What powers will there be to "stop and search" by whatever body, and on private property? TBH ,i doubt we will be that important a problem with COVID still being a plague until I estimate 2024. Sure they can "ban lead shot in Ireland" but what about stocks of shells still out there?Are we going to have NPWS and AGS in their waders coming out to blinds on an estuary at 5AM thru the mud to check with a magnet each and every shotgun shell?

You can make laws, but you have to be able to enforce them as well.
There is still 2 years run in time on this and up to then lead is still available and there will be a lot of ructions between then and now and if we get the lead out and our sht together, we could come out of this a lot better than we think.

Zxthinger · 27-11-2020 1:21pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Better get started then...But no need to panic utterly too..How will this be enforced and checked in reality on the ground? Who will enforce this? Can it be enforced effectively too? What powers will there be to "stop and search" by whatever body, and on private property? TBH ,i doubt we will be that important a problem with COVID still being a plague until I estimate 2024. Sure they can "ban lead shot in Ireland" but what about stocks of shells still out there?Are we going to have NPWS and AGS in their waders coming out to blinds on an estuary at 5AM thru the mud to check with a magnet each and every shotgun shell?

You can make laws, but you have to be able to enforce them as well.
There is still 2 years run in time on this and up to then lead is still available and there will be a lot of ructions between then and now and if we get the lead out and our sht together, we could come out of this a lot better than we think.

They cant enforce anything here and they know that, so chances are that they'll run for an all out ban.

tudderone · 27-11-2020 2:45pm

Zxthinger wrote: »

They cant enforce anything here and they know that, so chances are that they'll run for an all out ban.

Yes, they will make importation of any lead ammunition impossible and thats that.

Uinseann_16 · 27-11-2020 4:02pm

Even if 1 million birds due from load poisoning from the guardian article I read today ( imho that's bull) that is nothing compared to what cats kill each year so why in all that is Holy is there not a cat ban if this is indeed to protect the environment?

Grizzly 45 · 28-11-2020 12:15am

tudderone wrote: »

Yes, they will make importation of any lead ammunition impossible and thats that.

THIS remarkable device might become a seller .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNnemAV7q_Q

Serious enough videos on how to make lead shot out there if we have to.
Lock up your roof lead!

28-11-2020 12:29am

tudderone wrote: »

Yes, they will make importation of any lead ammunition impossible and thats that.

If the UK escapes without implementing this I imagine the old smuggling routes will be a thing again between us the the north.

Zxthinger · 01-12-2020 5:59pm

The elephant in the room is not recreational shooting but the wide spread use of glyphosate containing herbicides. It's been well documented that the use of these acidic proteins kills the bioreactant flaura which allows heavy metals to leach out of the ground.

Sprays corn and potato stalks ?????

tudderone · 01-12-2020 7:46pm

The Rifleman wrote: »

If the UK escapes without implementing this I imagine the old smuggling routes will be a thing again between us the the north.

All their shooting orgs, including the turncoat BASC, have signed up to ban lead for game shooting with 5 years.

badaj0z · 01-12-2020 8:14pm

I found the figures below with simple Google searches. They are both from the UK and from publications that support the lead ban in shooting. Look closely. You will soon note that the figures show that cats kill 270 times as many birds than are killed by lead shot. It is time to look at banning cats. Share this on all the social media you can to see if it has any impact.

https://www.birdguides.com/news/uk-shooting-industry-set-to-fight-eu-lead-ammunition-ban/#:~:text=Birds%20often%20mistake%20tiny%20shot,and%20the%20wider%20public%20alike.

The decision comes despite the well-known negative impacts of lead poisoning in both humans and wildlife. More than 6,000 tonnes of lead ammunition are fired over the UK countryside every year in areas where birds feed, and are left behind strewn on the ground. Birds often mistake tiny shot pellets for grit or seeds, and ingest them. Up to 100,000 waterbirds in the UK die every year through ingesting poisonous lead shot. Dead and dying birds are usually taken quickly by predators – making their deaths unseen and 'invisible' to shooters and the wider public alike.

https://www.rspb.org.uk/birds-and-wildlife/advice/gardening-for-wildlife/animal-deterrents/cats-and-garden-birds/are-cats-causing-bird-declines/#:~:text=an%20important%20habitat-,The%20statistics,known%20to%20have%20been%20caught.

The most recent figures of how many creatures are killed by cats are from the Mammal Society. They estimate that cats in the UK catch up to 100 million prey items over spring and summer, of which 27 million are birds.
This is the number of prey items which were known to have been caught. We don't know how many more the cats caught, but didn't bring home, or how many escaped but subsequently died.
The most frequently caught birds, according to the Mammal Society, are probably:
• house sparrows
• blue tits
• blackbirds
• starlings

tudderone · 01-12-2020 8:41pm

badaj0z wrote: »

I found the figures below with simple Google searches. They are both from the UK and from publications that support the lead ban in shooting. Look closely. You will soon note that the figures show that cats kill 270 times as many birds than are killed by lead shot. It is time to look at banning cats. Share this on all the social media you can to see if it has any impact.

https://www.birdguides.com/news/uk-shooting-industry-set-to-fight-eu-lead-ammunition-ban/#:~:text=Birds%20often%20mistake%20tiny%20shot,and%20the%20wider%20public%20alike.

The decision comes despite the well-known negative impacts of lead poisoning in both humans and wildlife. More than 6,000 tonnes of lead ammunition are fired over the UK countryside every year in areas where birds feed, and are left behind strewn on the ground. Birds often mistake tiny shot pellets for grit or seeds, and ingest them. Up to 100,000 waterbirds in the UK die every year through ingesting poisonous lead shot. Dead and dying birds are usually taken quickly by predators – making their deaths unseen and 'invisible' to shooters and the wider public alike.

https://www.rspb.org.uk/birds-and-wildlife/advice/gardening-for-wildlife/animal-deterrents/cats-and-garden-birds/are-cats-causing-bird-declines/#:~:text=an%20important%20habitat-,The%20statistics,known%20to%20have%20been%20caught.

The most recent figures of how many creatures are killed by cats are from the Mammal Society. They estimate that cats in the UK catch up to 100 million prey items over spring and summer, of which 27 million are birds.
This is the number of prey items which were known to have been caught. We don't know how many more the cats caught, but didn't bring home, or how many escaped but subsequently died.
The most frequently caught birds, according to the Mammal Society, are probably:
• house sparrows
• blue tits
• blackbirds
• starlings

YES ! I like a wally spend a good few bob every winter feeding the song birds, nyjer seed, sunflower seeds, suet balls etc, i love seeing them around the place. The other day i was watching the birds on the tree outside and a bloody cat appears and was going for them, it got told off and no mistake. It should be law to have a bell on a cat.

01-12-2020 8:45pm

Would birds not mistake steel shot for feed also? What would happen if that was ingested? Just curious if this has been considered and what the will happen in this scenario.

tudderone · 01-12-2020 8:53pm

Not to mention Wind turbines. In the greater scheme of things, shooting accounts for sfa of the bird numbers killed. Especially considering the amount of birds released, conservation work done, habitat upkeep, predators controlled. Just more evidence this ban is about gun control and nothing to do with pollution.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAj00IFpq_g

badaj0z · 01-12-2020 8:54pm

We are not alone. Stoke this up, get all cats banned for destruction of the environment.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-45347136

01-12-2020 9:17pm

badaj0z wrote: »

We are not alone. Stoke this up, get all cats banned for destruction of the environment.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-45347136

I hate cats.

Funny enough there was a thread started the other week asking if it was legal to shoot them

ace86 · 02-12-2020 1:59am

tudderone wrote: »

All their shooting orgs, including the turncoat BASC, have signed up to ban lead for game shooting with 5 years.

Well if they leave Europe they don’t really have to follow any directive from there regardless of a deal or not I should think.The shooting organisations might have signed up for it but that could all change post brexit if they want to stay going and get money for themselves.

tudderone · 02-12-2020 2:02am

ace86 wrote: »

Well if they leave Europe they don’t really have to follow any directive from there regardless of a deal or not I should think.The shooting organisations might have signed up for it but that could all change post brexit if they want to stay going and get money for themselves.

Nope, it seems to be about big driven shoots and game dealers not wanting to sell game, most of which goes abroad, with lead in it. That is where the money is and the basc and other shooting orgs are not going to bite the hand that feeds. Ordinary shooters can get stuffed it appears.

tudderone · 02-12-2020 1:39pm

"Europe bans lead shot"

"it will be “practically impossible for Olympic and non-Olympic international clay shooting competitions to be held in any EEA country. Already one rain shower would mean that using lead shot is not allowed, and these are lead shot-only events. Further, it is estimated that over 600 shooting ranges have permanent water features present. No assessment of the impacts of this law on clay shooting was conducted.”

https://www.vintageguns.co.uk/magazine/europe-bans-lead-shot

Grizzly 45 · 02-12-2020 1:57pm

tudderone wrote: »

"Europe bans lead shot"

" No assessment of the impacts of this law on clay shooting was conducted.”

https://www.vintageguns.co.uk/magazine/europe-bans-lead-shot

TYPICAL!!!!:rolleyes::rolleyes: What is it about the English mentality that seems to be one of total indifference until they get blindsided with the bloody obvious,clear and present danger that anyone else can see?
They seem to do it from everything from world wars to this kind of a situation.
Strange race altogether.

tudderone · 02-12-2020 2:55pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

TYPICAL!!!!:rolleyes::rolleyes: What is it about the English mentality that seems to be one of total indifference until they get blindsided with the bloody obvious,clear and present danger that anyone else can see?
They seem to do it from everything from world wars to this kind of a situation.
Strange race altogether.

Em, i think it was Dr David Scallan who wrote that piece. Anyway they are out of the eu for nearly a year now, they don't afaik have to implement the eu laws.

Grizzly 45 · 02-12-2020 3:03pm

ASFIK,they do have to keep some previous EU legislation up to a certain date on their books.
Moot point anyway in this case.As the EU would simply prohibit ammo from being imported from the UK if it contains lead.:(

SVI40 · 02-12-2020 3:17pm

None of this is about protecting birds, or lead pollution.

It is about the slow destruction of our sport, and removing firearms from civilians. It will either become too expensive to shoot, if we get a replacement for lead, or what ever replaces it will not suit, and we slowly give up shooting.

Without ammunition we have no need for firearms, so no justification in having them.

Or maybe, I should just wear a tin foil hat! I just do not trust those that we elect, or the civil servants who come up with these ideas.

02-12-2020 3:53pm

SVI40 wrote: »

None of this is about protecting birds, or lead pollution.

It is about the slow destruction of our sport, and removing firearms from civilians. It will either become too expensive to shoot, if we get a replacement for lead, or what ever replaces it will not suit, and we slowly give up shooting.

Without ammunition we have no need for firearms, so no justification in having them.

Or maybe, I should just wear a tin foil hat! I just do not trust those that we elect, or the civil servants who come up with these ideas.

You are correct. No need for a tin foil hat just yet. The EU are very open with their anti gun stance. Same with political parties here.

tudderone · 02-12-2020 4:45pm

A worrying apect is the presumption of guilt if you were to be found to be within 100 meters of wetland and had lead cartridges on you. Wouldn't this be illegal ?

SVI40 · 02-12-2020 7:05pm

tudderone wrote: »

A worrying apect is the presumption of guilt if you were to be found to be within 100 meters of wetland and had lead cartridges on you. Wouldn't this be illegal ?

It's certainly goes against all natural justice, and our presumption of innocence.

GooseB · 02-12-2020 7:20pm

How many people here wrote to the MEP's about this prior to the voting taking place? What did people actively do? I sent a letter to all our MEP's except the Greens because they are beyond useless.

I received a reply from one of them last Friday, after the final voting had finished. I won't say who it was as I consider this private correspondence (regardless if it was copied/pasted to everyone or not).

It is my understanding that there are no current proposals under consideration by the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage for a total nationwide ban on the use of lead shot.

I understand that there will be concern around the implementation of this proposed regulation. I have made representations to the Minister for Housing, Darragh O’Brien TD, asking him to ensure that his Department will maintain consultation with relevant interests including hunting and farming organisations as to how best to implement the proposal should it become law .

I don't understand the last words "should it become law". This has been voted on and surely it should have said "when it becomes law"?

Anyway, I thanked them for being the only one to have the decency to reply and tried to put my case forward for the upcoming bans on all civilian lead ammo and the problems it would cause.

So what did anyone else receive back in reply?

tudderone · 02-12-2020 8:28pm

GooseB wrote: »

How many people here wrote to the MEP's about this prior to the voting taking place? What did people actively do? I sent a letter to all our MEP's except the Greens because they are beyond useless.

I received a reply from one of them last Friday, after the final voting had finished. I won't say who it was as I consider this private correspondence (regardless if it was copied/pasted to everyone or not).

I don't understand the last words "should it become law". This has been voted on and surely it should have said "when it becomes law"?

Anyway, I thanked them for being the only one to have the decency to reply and tried to put my case forward for the upcoming bans on all civilian lead ammo and the problems it would cause.

So what did anyone else receive back in reply?

I emailed them and got zip. Apart from the greens, as like you i deem them to be the enemy.

richiedel123 · 02-12-2020 9:02pm

Got 3 replies to be fair. One good reply one bad reply and one big debate that ended up in a bit of to and Froing but I knew my point would never have been listened to so I was really wasting my breath. But I tried so there wasn't much more I could do.
To be honest I don't think many meps would have even properly read it. Just seen lead = bad so decided they would vote for it. I watched the agenda for the plenary where it was voted and they had a full agenda of proposals to be voted on. I think the lead ban would have been bottom of their list to worry about

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Lead ban

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