M20 and Rail alternatives for Limerick to Cork travel

cgcsb · 01-12-2020 12:32pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Rolling stock is probably a limiting factor for a good number of years.

Sorting LJ is the first part of the problem that needs sorting, and then removal of level crossings both on Colbert to LJ and LJ to Cork. The dual track of Colbert to LJ would be next.

I think that a Luas project for both Cork and Limerick should also feature as related projects. Not much point in arriving at Colbert or Kent and - then what?

Unfortunately the LSMATS is very short sited and doesn't propose any light rail or commuter rail service, even though the strategy is up until 2040. Bus Connects will improve public transport within Limerick but it'll only be buses.

Sam Russell · 01-12-2020 12:55pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Unfortunately the LSMATS is very short sited and doesn't propose any light rail or commuter rail service, even though the strategy is up until 2040. Bus Connects will improve public transport within Limerick but it'll only be buses.

Short sighted is par for the course when it comes to planning for infrastructure, particularly PT and in Rail particular.

I would have thought a Minister for Transport, a member of the Green Party, would be all over this.

Cookiemunster · 01-12-2020 1:19pm

Limerick needs to be way more densely populated before any light rail could be considered. Even by 2040 I can't see that being the case. The suburban sprawl will still be there. There are plenty of planning applications and permissions in for it to be extended even further all around the city. The council really don't help themselves.

Even the current rail lines don't really work for commuter rail as they are mostly nowhere near where the need to be. There's nothing at all in Castletroy and the Ennis line touches the outskirts of Moyross before meandering out into the countryside again before turning back into the city.

mdmix · 01-12-2020 3:36pm

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Limerick needs to be way more densely populated before any light rail could be considered. Even by 2040 I can't see that being the case. The suburban sprawl will still be there. There are plenty of planning applications and permissions in for it to be extended even further all around the city. The council really don't help themselves.

Even the current rail lines don't really work for commuter rail as they are mostly nowhere near where the need to be. There's nothing at all in Castletroy and the Ennis line touches the outskirts of Moyross before meandering out into the countryside again before turning back into the city.

our national policy (Ireland 2040) is weighted towards increasing density and improving transport, but our (Limerick) local policy is aimed towards promoting sprawl (LNDR & Mungret housing development by LCC). Any housing application for medium density developments is immediately challenged by locals citing traffic concerns. We need a dramatic shift in local policy to address this.

Micro-mobility will increase the footprint of transport systems equip to support it (rail/light rail). There are 3 local road projects, that if we were following the national policy, would not be needed - the NDR, Mungret distributer road and Bloodmill road upgrades. Had LCCC had any vision, the money spent/being sought for these projects could well have payed for light rail from a park and ride M7 city east to another park and ride off the M20 city west. This would support the majority of the urban population, commuters, students, shopping and business districts. Such a system would fit in well with the suggested 10,000 person community just off the grounds of Limerick train station and a suggested improved interurban rail plan.

instead we are faced with the prospect of piecemeal bus improvements. At this rate, by 2040 LCCC will be arguing for additional traffic lanes on the M7 and N18.

cgcsb · 02-12-2020 9:56am

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Limerick needs to be way more densely populated before any light rail could be considered. Even by 2040 I can't see that being the case. The suburban sprawl will still be there. There are plenty of planning applications and permissions in for it to be extended even further all around the city. The council really don't help themselves.

Even the current rail lines don't really work for commuter rail as they are mostly nowhere near where the need to be. There's nothing at all in Castletroy and the Ennis line touches the outskirts of Moyross before meandering out into the countryside again before turning back into the city.

It's a 2040 strategy, that's 20 years from now. A different world, policy is that the centres of the regional cities will grow exponentially in that time, fossil fuel cars will not be for sale, likely car ownership in general will be more expensive and car sharing schemes more common. Last year more apartments than houses got planning permission for the first time in the state. Things are changing.

rebs23 · 02-12-2020 10:49am

Could the title of this thread be changed? It's not a question of road v rail, it's adding a direct rail corridor in conjunction with the direct motorway.

Mod: I have changed it so the M20 is not shown as either/or but and so the rail option can be seen as an extra rather than replacing the M20.

We know the M20 has to go ahead even if the Minister is not sure.

Cookiemunster · 02-12-2020 11:42am

cgcsb wrote: »

It's a 2040 strategy, that's 20 years from now. A different world, policy is that the centres of the regional cities will grow exponentially in that time, fossil fuel cars will not be for sale, likely car ownership in general will be more expensive and car sharing schemes more common. Last year more apartments than houses got planning permission for the first time in the state. Things are changing.

Strategy. I love that word. How much of the early 2000s National Spatial Strategy has made it into the real world today? We're still waiting for the the vast majority of it.

I live in the real world and I'm very confident that Limerick and the other regional cities will (unfortunately) still be sprawled in 20 years time.

All the apartment building permissions are in Dublin. And how many are actually getting built? Other than student accommodation there are very few apartment developments outside of Dublin.

People will also still very much be driving cars. A large percentage of them will be electric, but ICE cars will be available for another decade, so will be on the roads for another 20 years.

Geuze · 02-12-2020 11:44am

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

In the context of this project, sorting LJ coupled with the planned removal of level crossing to Cork should deliver regular and decent journey time services between Cork and Limerick. I don't think anything else is realistic under this project. Both cities have separate internal transport plans

By "decent", what are we talking about?

Bass Reeves · 02-12-2020 12:06pm

rebs23 wrote: »

Could the title of this thread be changed? It's not a question of road v rail, it's adding a direct rail corridor in conjunction with the direct motorway.

But in reality that's the choice. Any chance of viability of a rail option depends on the stopping of the M20. It is unlikely that any government would allocate funds for both projects. The actual provision of either a substantial upgrade to existing line or the provision of a new line from Limerick to Rathluirc( Gaelic name of Charlesville) is only part of the cost. For these line to even have a chance of drawing commuters (and this is highly questionable) new large scale urbann rail projects would need to be put in place for Limerick and Cork. You would have to add in the cost of rolling stock for these projects. The total costs of these projects would exceed the cost of the M20.

When you consider that such a project would have to compete with urban rail projects in Dublin it hard to see it getting priority funding. The M20 is a priority project. It is critical to the development of a counter hub to Dublin which sucks in economic activity.

The big question of any rail project is will it attract commuters in such numbers to sustain a level of service that will ensure it a viable alternative to people using there cars. At present considering the amount invested in it only 2%of commuters use rail as an option and that includes the large urban rail projects in Dublin. 20%use bus. Nearly as many people travel to work on bikes as by rail in Ireland.

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-cp6ci/p6cii/p6mtw/

With the limitations on funds and the fact that there will always be choices to be made it makes more sense to consider what there pact if spend differently. Most journeys on the N20 originate and terminate on it or adjacent to it. The actual through traffic is not what is need to be catered for. Even a person living in Blarney or Patrickwell will not travel into the city center to catch a train to the other city center even for the purpose of lifestyle shopping.

Rail needs peak volumes of commuters to assure peak and off peak services. Peak services need to be 4-5 times per hours services to attract customers. Customers then need to be dropped within 500meters of there workplace. Without a huge spend on Urban rail in Cork and Limerick would this be possible. But the sting in the tail is if constructed would it be viable to provide the services to attract commuters from there cars.

With the advent of WFH it is quite likely peak volumes will reduce this in itself causes a problem as commuters would require a more flexible service if only going into an office for 4-6 hours a couple of days a week. Commuters have shown themselves to be more time sensitive than price sensitive.

Therefore if along with the cost of the M20 we have 4-500million+ to spend is spending on cycle paths or bus services a much better choice than big spend fantasy rail projects

Pete_Cavan · 02-12-2020 12:57pm

Bass Reeves wrote: »

But in reality that's the choice. Any chance of viability of a rail option depends on the stopping of the M20.

That's not the choice, there is a wide spectrum of options in between M20 + major rail investment and M20 + zero rail investment (there are obviously other options not including the M20 but they are unlikely). I think the most likely outcome is M20 + modest rail investment, say around €10m. With level crossing already planned for removal, I think the most benefits would come from upgrades to LJ.

trellheim · 02-12-2020 1:11pm

With a modest spend beyond the level crossing replacement what extra benefits could be easily done Cork-Limerick ? If you build M20 outer ring to outer ring should drop to 70 mins or so driving it so rail would need to be competitive which I can't see unless you toll the M20 at port tunnel peak hours levels.

riddlinrussell · 02-12-2020 3:59pm

trellheim wrote: »

With a modest spend beyond the level crossing replacement what extra benefits could be easily done Cork-Limerick ? If you build M20 outer ring to outer ring should drop to 70 mins or so driving it so rail would need to be competitive which I can't see unless you toll the M20 at port tunnel peak hours levels.

Rail doesn't need to be 'competitive' at least not time wise, there are a lot of knock on effects outside of the Cork to Limerick journey to some of the proposed changes, if the proposed works were to include reconfiguring Limerick Junction, Closing all LCs LJ to Colbert, *maybe* dualling. You get a massive increase in operational flexibility for IE. Direct Cork/Limerick trains is one benefit, and those can now have a far higher frequency (rolling stock permitting), Improved frequency and speed also possible for Dublin/Limerick, Dublin/Cork (Due to operational improvements at LJ and the aforementioned closed LCs on the Cork line)

Depending on the level of work proposed at LJ you could *maybe* go as far as through train options from Limerick towards Waterford (Probably pie in the sky) And that could be made a more attractive service as a result.

cgcsb · 02-12-2020 4:32pm

trellheim wrote: »

With a modest spend beyond the level crossing replacement what extra benefits could be easily done Cork-Limerick ? If you build M20 outer ring to outer ring should drop to 70 mins or so driving it so rail would need to be competitive which I can't see unless you toll the M20 at port tunnel peak hours levels.

By rail at present, 90 minutes, including a 7 minute wait to change is possible. Reconfiguring LJ to allow for direct trains, removing level crossings (already happening), 70 minute journeys are of course possible and this would be a modest investment. the dualing/electrification of L to LJ plus future Cork-Dub upgrade would mean rail journey times would be well ahead of motorway.

At present there are lots of intercity rail journey times nowhere near competitive with road, as a result of decades of under investment in rail. Some notable examples:

Dublin to Belfast, Galway, Sligo, Wexford
Galway to Limerick

Cookiemunster · 02-12-2020 4:49pm

Everyone keeps talking about beating motorway times with trains. This though ignores the fact that the vast a majority of city to city traffic is freight. There is very little demand for private city center to city center travel. Most traffic of the current N20 is commuting from North County Cork and County Limerick to industrial estates around Limerick City or from the Mallow area to industrial estates around Cork City.

Beating motorway city center to city center times won't entice anyone onto a train that they've no use for.

riddlinrussell · 03-12-2020 11:41am

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Everyone keeps talking about beating motorway times with trains. This though ignores the fact that the vast a majority of city to city traffic is freight. There is very little demand for private city center to city center travel. Most traffic of the current N20 is commuting from North County Cork and County Limerick to industrial estates around Limerick City or from the Mallow area to industrial estates around Cork City.

Beating motorway city center to city center times won't entice anyone onto a train that they've no use for.

Exactly, the main benefits of improving the rail along here will be operational and allow IE to offer better services that work for more people (hopefully)

rebs23 · 04-12-2020 12:56pm

riddlinrussell wrote: »

Exactly, the main benefits of improving the rail along here will be operational and allow IE to offer better services that work for more people (hopefully)

Another reason for a direct link from Charleville to Limerick is that it significantly increases the long term viability of the Limerick to Galway line as it creates a direct link from Cork to Galway. It's fair to say that Limerick-Galway along with Limerick - Ballybrophy and Limerick - Waterford are three routes under most threat of closing due to very low passenger numbers.

riddlinrussell · 04-12-2020 1:21pm

rebs23 wrote: »

Another reason for a direct link from Charleville to Limerick is that it significantly increases the long term viability of the Limerick to Galway line as it creates a direct link from Cork to Galway. It's fair to say that Limerick-Galway along with Limerick - Ballybrophy and Limerick - Waterford are three routes under most threat of closing due to very low passenger numbers.

And as I said depending on the level of works at Limerick Junction, Galway-Waterford could be enabled and improve use on that line. Obviously there is more to be done on those routes if they are to provide value, but Limerick Junction being sorted and Dual track/passing loops on single track lines would dramatically change the operating patterns for many of our current routes for the better.

Sam Russell · 04-12-2020 2:52pm

riddlinrussell wrote: »

And as I said depending on the level of works at Limerick Junction, Galway-Waterford could be enabled and improve use on that line. Obviously there is more to be done on those routes if they are to provide value, but Limerick Junction being sorted and Dual track/passing loops on single track lines would dramatically change the operating patterns for many of our current routes for the better.

Of course Colbert needs work if there are to be through routes - the LJ to Ennis train changes end at Colbert.

riddlinrussell · 04-12-2020 3:14pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Of course Colbert needs work if there are to be through routes - the LJ to Ennis train changes end at Colbert.

Could that not be 'solved' with a double ended train? Driver can change ends during the stop at Colbert, its a major station so would imagine you'd do a long enough dwell at it. Of course you'd be right if we wanted some sort of Cork-Galway non-stop express, but I cant see a train passing Limerick without stopping.

Obviously the ideal solution would be 'closing the triangle' and a station adjacent to it, but how is that set up for the space to do it, and would a station there get local use?

L1011 · 04-12-2020 3:35pm

All our trains can be driven from both ends.

There's basically no way to create a through platform Limerick-Waterford; reversing would have to be used as is already done at Kilkenny and Killarney. Ditto other hypotheticals like Cork-Galway; whether via Mallow/LJ or a rebuilt line (unless you wanted to entirely skip Limerick!)

Moving the station further from the city is not an answer.

M20 and Rail alternatives for Limerick to Cork travel

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