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Phev emissions scandal?

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    #2
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,265 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    Lantus wrote: »
    I would agree with the lead analyst that these are fake electric cars whose purpose is to skim money off niave governments through free money grants.


    https://www.transportenvironment.org/press/plug-hybrids-new-emissions-scandal-tests-show-higher-pollution-claimed

    Stop all grants now to both these cars and evs to promote real competition and lean efficient design.

    High emissions means higher than advertised fuel consumption so consumers lose out as well.
    I wouldn’t say that their findings are true for most people. Several of the people I know with PHEV drive on battery 95% of the time. Granted my sample size is off 5 retirees, who seldom travel more than 15km from home.


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    #3
    Kramer
    Registered Users Posts: 3,224 ✭✭✭Kramer


    Lantus wrote: »
    I would agree with the lead analyst that these are fake electric cars whose purpose is to skim money off niave governments through free money grants.

    Taxpayers monies :D.
    In fact, they (PHEVs) have to be charged much more frequently than battery electric cars, which do around 300km on a single charge.

    Well fcúk me. Who'd have guessed it? Smaller batteries need more frequent recharging :eek:.
    But the truth is that most PHEVs are just not well made. They have weak electric motors, big, polluting engines, and usually can’t fast charge.

    What a load of BS :rolleyes:. It really is tabloid type trash. That "research" has obviously been funded by some special interest group.


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    #4
    Old diesel
    Registered Users Posts: 5,786 ✭✭✭Old diesel


    PHEVs are a transition tech.

    It's known that many people are worried about going full EV.

    Because they do really long journeys or just range anxiety.

    PHEVs can work well if you do a lot of short trips around town (doable on full EV part of PHEV) with some longer trips.

    Problem is when like diesels with DPFs - the cars end up in user situations that aren't what they are meant for.

    For example if a sales rep uses a PHEV for 1 k miles a week and never plugs in. (Extreme example - these guys are probably still in diesels)


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    #5
    whippet
    Registered Users Posts: 7,668 ✭✭✭whippet


    of course there will be abuse of the system especially when there is up to €7.5k available in SEAI and VRT grants / rebates.

    But to assume that PHEVs are only suitable for urban dwellers is nonsense - i'm rural and I can go a couple of weeks at the moment with out using a drop of petrol - 90% of my normal driving is within EV range and I do have an old diesel on the driveway as well


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    #6
    GerardKeating
    Registered Users Posts: 7,528 ✭✭✭GerardKeating


    ted1 wrote: »
    Several of the people I know with PHEV drive on battery 95% of the time. Granted my sample size is off 5 retirees, who seldom travel more than 15km from home.

    MY sample size is even smaller, I only know one PHEV driver, and after a few months of 100% battery driving, the car "wants" to run on fuel for an hour or so.


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    #7
    whippet
    Registered Users Posts: 7,668 ✭✭✭whippet


    GerardKeating wrote: »
    MY sample size is even smaller, I only know one PHEV driver, and after a few months of 100% battery driving, the car "wants" to run on fuel for an hour or so.

    and in my case - I also do want to drive in petrol for a while - pressing the Xtraboost button and opening the taps is always a nice feeling


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    #8
    Dayor Knight
    Registered Users Posts: 743 ✭✭✭Dayor Knight


    I sniff an agenda here......


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    #9
    Lantus
    Registered Users Posts: 3,027 ✭✭✭Lantus


    GerardKeating wrote: »
    MY sample size is even smaller, I only know one PHEV driver, and after a few months of 100% battery driving, the car "wants" to run on fuel for an hour or so.

    An expensive vehicle choice to drive a few km every week. No problem with any amount spent on a car but a wonder how many have lulled into some money saving argument that just doesn't stack up. Especially given the shocking premium that a phev demands plus the money lining grants that manufacturers have extorted from governments under the ludricous pre tence that without it they wouldn't sell.

    Just like we needed to subsidise blu Ray players. Lcd tvs, touchscreen devices.... Oh, wait a minute....


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    #10
    whippet
    Registered Users Posts: 7,668 ✭✭✭whippet


    Lantus wrote: »
    An expensive vehicle choice to drive a few km every week.

    People have been driving small miles in expensive motors since they were first around.

    Generally people buy expensive motors because they like them and want them


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    #11
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,265 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    whippet wrote: »

    Generally people buy expensive motors because they like them and want them

    Expensive motors to one person are not expensive to another.


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    #12
    Lantus
    Registered Users Posts: 3,027 ✭✭✭Lantus


    ted1 wrote: »
    Expensive motors to one person are not expensive to another.

    Agreed and with whippet1.

    It's certain that wealthier people will buy such cars. No issue. So is that the main consumer? Rich low mileage drivers that didn't need or care about saving a cent but lovr the idea of driving an underpowered electric motor for a few km because that's their first choice??


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    #13
    kaahooters
    Registered Users Posts: 642 ✭✭✭kaahooters


    Lantus wrote: »
    Agreed and with whippet1.

    It's certain that wealthier people will buy such cars. No issue. So is that the main consumer? Rich low mileage drivers that didn't need or care about saving a cent but lovr the idea of driving an underpowered electric motor for a few km because that's their first choice??

    how are evs underpowered?


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    #14
    Miscreant
    Registered Users Posts: 2,198 ✭✭✭Miscreant


    kaahooters wrote: »
    how are evs underpowered?

    I'm pretty sure that Lantus is referring to PHEVs and not EVs (seeing as this is the thread we find ourselves in). Typically, the electric motor in a PHEV is not as powerful as that of a full EV.

    I do sense a bit of a bias in the article from the OP although I also believe that there is a grain of truth in there somewhere too. Once the ICE kicks in for a PHEV it is providing motive power to the wheels and also turning the generator to provide electricity to top up the battery. This has to have an effect on emissions as the engine is trying to do 2 jobs at once.

    Bjorn Nyland did a test of a Kia XCeed PHEV this week and he got a consumption figure of 7l/100km at an average speed of 120kph (with a relatively depleted battery). That is quite high consumption in my mind and would seem to lend a little credence to the article that PHEVs pump out more emissions than the manufacturers state.

    This whole argument comes down to the mechanism used to test these vehicles and their emissions. The WLTP has a set of guidelines laid out that manufacturers must follow to be valid. The test in the article may not be adhering to these guidelines and then complaining that the results are different.

    If a consumer feels a PHEV suits their needs, they get a good deal and are happy with the car then what is the problem? Until there is a "Dieselgate" type investigation carried out by several different and independent testing bodies then the article in the OP is merely an opinion piece.


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    #15
    Del2005
    Registered Users Posts: 18,872 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    Lantus wrote: »
    An expensive vehicle choice to drive a few km every week. No problem with any amount spent on a car but a wonder how many have lulled into some money saving argument that just doesn't stack up. Especially given the shocking premium that a phev demands plus the money lining grants that manufacturers have extorted from governments under the ludricous pre tence that without it they wouldn't sell.

    Just like we needed to subsidise blu Ray players. Lcd tvs, touchscreen devices.... Oh, wait a minute....

    Loads of people bought expensive diesels to drive a few km per week when the greens where pushing diesel and the governments bought in by lowering taxes on one of the dirtiest fuels available for vehicles.

    People follow the "cheap" tax by spending thousands on an unsuitable vehicles to save a few Euro on the cheapest part of vehicle ownership.


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    #16
    kaahooters
    Registered Users Posts: 642 ✭✭✭kaahooters


    so ive read the article 4 time now, and its a bit of a mess, but im putting that down to the multiple translations needed for that site.

    unfortunately the point on the author is missed.

    yes the current state of phev vehicles is poor at best, but the currently they are early adopter / beta testing a new hybrid effectively.

    the fact sheet that the article was ..... loosely based off

    https://theicct.org/sites/default/fi...sept2020-0.pdf

    basically says,

    provide grants to longer range hybrid ev
    manufactures should build bigger batteries in the phev
    give them fast charging.

    even taking into account the extra emissions, there still the lowest of all types of ice

    https://imgur.com/a/8S6mCnM

    so im not sure where the game of Chinese whispers started from, but its gone from:

    "there an ok start, must try harder next year"

    to lantus post, which i dont understand, of :

    "Stop all grants now to both these cars and evs to promote real competition and lean efficient design.

    High emissions means higher than advertised fuel consumption so consumers lose out as well."

    posting on an ev forum to denounce grants for evs and complain on higher fuel usage?, im sure you have a point, but i cant see what it is.


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    #17
    BKtje
    Registered Users Posts: 8,035 ✭✭✭BKtje


    So as a recent convert to PHEV I thought I'd weigh in on this for my own personal use case.

    Just so you know the cars stats.
    Electric motor: 75KW (100hp)
    ICE 118KW (158hp)
    Combined: 163KW (218HP)

    Battery: 15.6KW
    Usable: approx 12KW
    Weight wet: 2200kg

    Charge: AC - 7.2KW/h and DC - 24KW/h
    ted1 wrote: »
    Several of the people I know with PHEV drive on battery 95% of the time. Granted my sample size is off 5 retirees, who seldom travel more than 15km from home.
    My commute is 62KM with mostly roads limited to 80KPH. On the way to work I drop about 120m in total but it is mountainous.

    Commute to work: I do about 56KM with the ICE motor turned off. I use approx 1l/100km
    Commute to home: I do about 50KM with the ICE turned off and about 1.6l per 100km

    Total 106km of 128 commute done electric. With the remaining 22 km done at about 1.3l per 100km. This is done in winterish conditions with the morning about 0 degrees and return about 4degrees.


    Miscreant wrote: »
    I do sense a bit of a bias in the article from the OP although I also believe that there is a grain of truth in there somewhere too. Once the ICE kicks in for a PHEV it is providing motive power to the wheels and also turning the generator to provide electricity to top up the battery. This has to have an effect on emissions as the engine is trying to do 2 jobs at once.
    My car only charges with recuperation and not the battery. However I believe it will charge a minimum amount as all the systems (starter motor, touch screens, lights etc) as it does not have a standard battery.

    As an interesting aside. I left work the other day with my battery reading 0km.
    By the time I made it home my km done without ICE read 23km of 62km (downhill portions, recuperation etc). My fuel usage was 5l per 100 for the 62km and average speed was about 60kph. Energy usage was 0.1kw per 100km so my battery was well and truely empty.


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    #18
    Casati
    Registered Users Posts: 3,013 ✭✭✭Casati


    BKtje wrote: »
    So as a recent convert to PHEV I thought I'd weigh in on this for my own personal use case.

    Just so you know the cars stats.
    Electric motor: 75KW (100hp)
    ICE 118KW (158hp)
    Combined: 163KW (218HP)

    Battery: 15.6KW
    Usable: approx 12KW
    Weight wet: 2200kg

    Charge: AC - 7.2KW/h and DC - 24KW/h


    My commute is 62KM with mostly roads limited to 80KPH. On the way to work I drop about 120m in total but it is mountainous.

    Commute to work: I do about 56KM with the ICE motor turned off. I use approx 1l/100km
    Commute to home: I do about 50KM with the ICE turned off and about 1.6l per 100km

    Total 106km of 128 commute done electric. With the remaining 22 km done at about 1.3l per 100km. This is done in winterish conditions with the morning about 0 degrees and return about 4degrees.




    My car only charges with recuperation and not the battery. However I believe it will charge a minimum amount as all the systems (starter motor, touch screens, lights etc) as it does not have a standard battery.

    As an interesting aside. I left work the other day with my battery reading 0km.
    By the time I made it home my km done without ICE read 23km of 62km (downhill portions, recuperation etc). My fuel usage was 5l per 100 for the 62km and average speed was about 60kph. Energy usage was 0.1kw per 100km so my battery was well and truely empty.

    This type of example is similar to what other PHEV’s users I know have seen and it’s this type of user case that PHEV’s are perfect for. Aside from being cheaper than full EV’s a PHEV also gives you the option to drive 600/800km without having to either charge or fill the tank. You have to spend at least 100k to get an EV that will do the same trick.

    Cars like the new Proceed PHEV with RRP of around 29k before big discounts also make it clear that PHEV’s are not just the preserve of the wealthy. I honestly think PHEV’s will become biggest single category seller in tens years, followed by EV’s and then pure Diesel.


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    #19
    BKtje
    Registered Users Posts: 8,035 ✭✭✭BKtje


    To be fair this car was not cheap (With full options it's 70k chf (65k euro) and if I were to make the choice now I'd probably go full EV). When I ordered the car I did not know where I would be working and the charging infrastructure available. That said similar PHEV's like the GTE do similar for a lot less.

    That said I absolutely adore the car(very luxurious :o) and how easy all the systems make the driving experience.


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    #20
    KCross
    Registered Users Posts: 12,070 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    Casati wrote: »
    I honestly think PHEV’s will become biggest single category seller in tens years, followed by EV’s and then pure Diesel.

    Thats what the car manufacturers are hoping for too... particularly BMW! :)

    I think they will be disappointed though. PHEV's will get more popular in the years ahead but then slide out of existence with the rest of ICE tech as governments put the squeeze on anything with an ICE in it.


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    #21
    PaulRyan97
    Registered Users Posts: 461 ✭✭PaulRyan97


    Is it possible PHEVs will start to get replaced by more REX style vehicles? Cars with like a 40-50kwh battery and a small engine to charge it when necessary?


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    #22
    Lantus
    Registered Users Posts: 3,027 ✭✭✭Lantus


    Casati wrote: »
    This type of example is similar to what other PHEV’s users I know have seen and it’s this type of user case that PHEV’s are perfect for. Aside from being cheaper than full EV’s a PHEV also gives you the option to drive 600/800km without having to either charge or fill the tank. You have to spend at least 100k to get an EV that will do the same trick.

    Cars like the new Proceed PHEV with RRP of around 29k before big discounts also make it clear that PHEV’s are not just the preserve of the wealthy. I honestly think PHEV’s will become biggest single category seller in tens years, followed by EV’s and then pure Diesel.

    Grants have never helped either the consumer or market and are just seen as an easy way by suppliers, installers and manufacturers as a way to boost profits. The kia niro shouldn't cost 40k (before grants) to magically make it 32k. Paid for by money taken from hard working people who probably can't afford these cars anyway.

    Phev is interesting tech and I have enjoyed all the evs I have driven. But we have to deliver a real viable product which isn't fudged by subsidies.

    As the lockdown has shown. Structural changes in the way we work have a huge effect on emissions. A real tangible massive difference achieved at a global level. This is how we will tackle emissions long term. Not lining the pockets of car manufacturers for phev. Batteries and motors are very common tech. Doesn't warrant a grant.


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    #23
    Dohvolle
    Registered Users Posts: 3,283 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    Dayor Knight wrote: »
    I sniff an agenda here......

    Like the cigarette manufacturers telling you e-cigarettes are bad for you?


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