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COVID-19: Vaccine/antidote and testing procedures Megathread [Mod Warning - Post #1]

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Comments

  • #7052
    polesheep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,950 ✭✭✭polesheep


    Pasteur. wrote: »
    It's already started

    Do you have examples?


  • #7053
    Approved User Assesment
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56 ✭✭Approved User Assesment


    hmmm wrote: »
    I've heard it all now, the Geneva convention - I ask you.

    There's nothing in Irish discrimination laws about vaccinations and businesses refusing service to people who are not vaccinated. There may be some argument under the Constitution in respect of access to certain services (e.g. education), but it's a limited subset.

    Any country signed up to the Geneva Convention is bound to it, does it not supersede local laws?

    Within that there is very likely clauses regarding voluntary informed consent regarding informed consent being required for medical treatments.

    Think it was revised after the Nazi Doctors medical experiments upon their POWs in the 1940's. They were later tried for violating the universal right of informed consent under this and the Nuremberg Code.

    If there is such a right, any discrimination as a result of an available choice, would surely not sit well as a result of a travel bans, event discrimination and so on.


  • #7054
    Gael23
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,147 ✭✭✭✭Gael23


    What’s going on with the Oxford vaccine? Doesn’t sound good


  • #7055
    Fodla
    Closed Accounts Posts: 281 ✭✭Fodla


    JDD wrote: »
    Jesus, I feel sorry for anyone who has an autoimmune disease and works in a healthcare environment. It must be very worrying that you might pick up something that you can't fight off. Unless of course she works in a physical rehabilitation hospital or something.

    It certainly possible that vaccination could become mandatory here. I know we have a right to bodily integrity under the Constitution, but like everything in the Constitution, the right is limited by the words "as far as practicable". So when you're weighing up an individual's right to bodily integrity, with a larger groups constitutional right to health, it's likely that the court will decide in favour of the larger group. I think there have in fact been some previous court decisions that have touched on the topic of vaccinations in the context of contagious diseases, and have stated that mandatory vaccinations could be allowable under the Constitution.

    That's a last resort though. If 70-80% choose to get vaccinated over the course of next year, they probably will have no need for legislation.

    So, if I were an anti-vaxxer, I'd be studiously posting on this website extolling the virtues of taking the vaccine. The more other people take it, the less likely the anti-vaxxer will be forced to get it themselves.

    I would hope that anyone faced with being forced to take a vaccine would pack their bags immediately and emigrate. If find the idea of being forced to take a vaccine frightening.


  • #7056
    ACitizenErased
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭ACitizenErased


    Gael23 wrote: »
    What’s going on with the Oxford vaccine? Doesn’t sound good

    The FDA want data, nothing more. It’s not bad news in the slightest.


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  • #7057
    Utopia Parkway
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,007 ✭✭✭✭Utopia Parkway


    Gael23 wrote: »
    What’s going on with the Oxford vaccine? Doesn’t sound good

    I have a sense some politics and big pharma rivalries are at play here.


  • #7058
    stephenjmcd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,443 ✭✭✭✭stephenjmcd


    Gael23 wrote: »
    What’s going on with the Oxford vaccine? Doesn’t sound good

    FDA want half dose full dose ran in the US, hasn't been done there yet. They won't accept data from a trial ran in the EU

    AstraZeneca saying its not expected to impact EU and UK.


  • #7059
    Deeper Blue
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,398 ✭✭✭Deeper Blue


    You'd swear the Oxford vaccine had failed the way some people are going on

    People need to read beyond the headlines in the likes of the daily star


  • #7060
    Water John
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,831 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    Fodla wrote: »
    I would hope that anyone faced with being forced to take a vaccine would pack their bags immediately and emigrate. If find the idea of being forced to take a vaccine frightening.

    Shush, Irish Stones and a whole lot of Italians will be coming here looking for asylum.


  • #7061
    odyssey06
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,430 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Approved User Assesment wrote: »
    Any country signed up to the Geneva Convention is bound to it, does it not supersede local laws?
    Within that there is very likely clauses regarding voluntary informed consent regarding informed consent being required for medical treatments.
    Think it was revised after the Nazi Doctors medical experiments upon their POWs in the 1940's. They were later tried for violating the universal right of informed consent under this and the Nuremberg Code.
    If there is such a right, any discrimination as a result of an available choice, would surely not sit well as a result of a travel bans, event discrimination and so on.

    Are we POWs?
    The Geneva convention is irrelevent.

    Many countries have mandatory vaccination laws pre-existing covid.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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  • #7062
    odyssey06
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,430 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Fodla wrote: »
    I would hope that anyone faced with being forced to take a vaccine would pack their bags immediately and emigrate. If find the idea of being forced to take a vaccine frightening.

    Many countries will insist upon it before letting you in, I suspect.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • #7063
    CruelSummer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,324 ✭✭✭CruelSummer


    The gloves are off now between the Pharma companies. This article states that the volunteers of both the Pfizer and Moderna jab were not given guidelines as to how to behave after receiving the shots and most likely wore masks + socially distanced as everyone else does...I assumed they were exposed to the virus in some controlled manner.

    https://www.businessinsider.com/vaccine-trials-pfizer-moderna-didnt-regulate-participants-masks-social-distancing-2020-11


  • #7064
    odyssey06
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,430 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    CruelSummer wrote: »
    The gloves are off now between the Pharma companies. This article states that the volunteers of both the Pfizer and Moderna jab were not given guidelines as to how to behave after receiving the shots and most likely wore masks + socially distanced as everyone else does...I assumed they were exposed to the virus in some controlled manner.

    https://www.businessinsider.com/vaccine-trials-pfizer-moderna-didnt-regulate-participants-masks-social-distancing-2020-11

    That would be a challenge trial and would unethical in this phase of testing.

    The article says:
    But experts don't expect these variations to significantly alter the findings, since the volunteers were randomly — and blindly — assigned to one group or the other.

    No reason to think one group were distancing or taking more or less risks or precautions than the other.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • #7065
    speckle
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,251 ✭✭✭speckle


    Isnt there a challenge trial potentially starting in London?


  • #7066
    odyssey06
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,430 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    speckle wrote: »
    Isnt there a challenge trial potentially starting in London?

    Potentially yes but only with a "Vaccine candidate that has been proven safe in clinical trials could be given to a group of healthy adults in this age range, who are then exposed to the virus in a controlled environment."

    https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanres/article/PIIS2213-2600(20)30518-X/fulltext

    Maybe I have misinterpreted but I dont think they could have been run in parallel to the trials we are currently discussing.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • #7067
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    speckle wrote: »
    Isnt there a challenge trial potentially starting in London?

    Due to begin in January subject to regulatory approval.


  • #7068
    Hmmzis
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,004 ✭✭✭Hmmzis


    CruelSummer wrote: »
    The gloves are off now between the Pharma companies. This article states that the volunteers of both the Pfizer and Moderna jab were not given guidelines as to how to behave after receiving the shots and most likely wore masks + socially distanced as everyone else does...I assumed they were exposed to the virus in some controlled manner.

    https://www.businessinsider.com/vaccine-trials-pfizer-moderna-didnt-regulate-participants-masks-social-distancing-2020-11

    Now the press is complaining that the trials have been run properly? What's wrong with those people?

    Randomized double blind placebo conteolled is the gold standard in trials, neither the recipients or the trial runners know who got what, all are blind to it and are supposed to behave like they normally would.


  • #7069
    Fodla
    Closed Accounts Posts: 281 ✭✭Fodla


    Mr Ryan from WHO said today that we'd need to socially distance after being vaccinated. Anyone get the feeling all these measures are permanent?


  • #7070
    timsey tiger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,768 ✭✭✭timsey tiger


    odyssey06 wrote: »
    That would be a challenge trial and would unethical in this phase of testing.

    The article says:
    But experts don't expect these variations to significantly alter the findings, since the volunteers were randomly — and blindly — assigned to one group or the other.

    No reason to think one group were distancing or taking more or less risks or precautions than the other.

    I think there is a significant risk that the vaccinated group may have taken more risks. If the shot gave you a sore arm etc. you might well unconsiously take more risks. The AZ one gave a different vaccine to counter this hazard.

    Of course this would make the vaccine appear worse than it actually is, or the AZ one relatively better than the Pfizer, Moderna ones.


  • #7071
    funnydoggy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,065 ✭✭✭funnydoggy


    Fodla wrote: »
    Mr Ryan from WHO said today that we'd need to socially distance after being vaccinated. Anyone get the feeling all these measures are permanent?



    Nope.


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  • #7072
    funnydoggy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,065 ✭✭✭funnydoggy


    The participants acted like rational human beings afterwards.

    Nothing to see here methinks.


  • #7073
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Fodla wrote: »
    Mr Ryan from WHO said today that we'd need to socially distance after being vaccinated. Anyone get the feeling all these measures are permanent?

    What's the issue with that perfectly logical statement?

    On an individual level it takes up to 6 weeks before the vaccine will have full effect.

    On a societal level not everyone is going to get it the same week, it will be 6 months to get it to 70+ % of the population and only then will full relaxation occur.


  • #7074
    Sky King
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,431 ✭✭✭Sky King


    Fodla wrote: »
    Mr Ryan from WHO said today that we'd need to socially distance after being vaccinated. Anyone get the feeling all these measures are permanent?

    Its not like you can get your vaccine and then go licking door handles on your way home, it takes weeks to kick in.

    Also...What determines the need for social distancing and other restrictions is the incidence rate perr 100k. This will gradually reduce as the vaccine gets out into the community. When that goes down, the measures go too. But it could take months.


  • #7075
    Fodla
    Closed Accounts Posts: 281 ✭✭Fodla


    Sky King wrote: »
    What determines the need for social distancing and other restrictions is the incidence rate perr 100k. This will gradually reduce as the vaccine gets out into the community. When that goes down, the measures go too.

    That's what I'm worried about. Will the restrictions ever be lifted? Not a single country in the world has got rid of masks, for example. There's no evidence, therefore, to suggest they'll ever be got rid of. I thought I'd post this in here because the vaccine was said to be the ticket back to normality. Now it seems it isn't. More moving of the goalposts, I fear.


  • #7076
    Sky King
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,431 ✭✭✭Sky King


    Fodla wrote: »
    That's what I'm worried about. Will the restrictions ever be lifted? Not a single country in the world has got rid of masks, for example. There's no evidence, therefore, to suggest they'll ever be got rid of. I thought I'd post this in here because the vaccine was said to be the ticket back to normality. Now it seems it isn't. More moving of the goalposts, I fear.

    My opinion is that we'll get back to normal eventually. In the meantime we'll have another 2 months or so of the current shytshow, followed by a slow improvement into a sping/ summer where we can do many things we want, but are not fully back to normal.


  • #7077
    Fodla
    Closed Accounts Posts: 281 ✭✭Fodla


    Sky King wrote: »
    My opinion is that we'll get back to normal eventually. In the meantime we'll have another 2 months or so of the current shytshow, followed by a slow improvement into a sping/ summer where we can do many things we want, but are not fully back to normal.

    But when do you think we'll be fully back to normal? No masks especially. I can live with the distancing thing for a while.


  • #7078
    Deeper Blue
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,398 ✭✭✭Deeper Blue


    Fodla wrote: »
    That's what I'm worried about. Will the restrictions ever be lifted?

    Yes
    Fodla wrote: »
    Not a single country in the world has got rid of masks, for example. There's no evidence, therefore, to suggest they'll ever be got rid of.

    It's been 8 months. Hardly enough to come to the conclusion that masks will be here forever.
    Fodla wrote: »
    I thought I'd post this in here because the vaccine was said to be the ticket back to normality. Now it seems it isn't. More moving of the goalposts, I fear.

    "Now it seems it isn't"

    The vaccine companies released their results literally the other day. Now all of a sudden this isn't the way back to normality? :confused:


  • #7079
    CruelSummer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,324 ✭✭✭CruelSummer


    Hmmzis wrote: »
    Now the press is complaining that the trials have been run properly? What's wrong with those people?

    Randomized double blind placebo conteolled is the gold standard in trials, neither the recipients or the trial runners know who got what, all are blind to it and are supposed to behave like they normally would.

    In your opinion is that enough to say 95% efficacy despite the fact they’ve behaved as we all are now with social distance & mask wearing? Were these volunteers selected from virus hotspots and jobs where exposure is likely?


  • #7080
    Fodla
    Closed Accounts Posts: 281 ✭✭Fodla


    El Sueño wrote: »
    Yes



    It's been 8 months. Hardly enough to come to the conclusion that masks will be here forever.



    "Now it seems it isn't"

    The vaccine companies released their results literally the other day. Now all of a sudden this isn't the way back to normality? :confused:

    It was the immediate talk of vaccines complementing the current measures that got me worried.


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  • #7081
    charlie14
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,579 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    Fodla wrote: »
    That's what I'm worried about. Will the restrictions ever be lifted? Not a single country in the world has got rid of masks, for example. There's no evidence, therefore, to suggest they'll ever be got rid of. I thought I'd post this in here because the vaccine was said to be the ticket back to normality. Now it seems it isn't. More moving of the goalposts, I fear.


    Why do you appear to believe countries would get rid of masks at this stage ?
    You do realise don`t you that nobody has actually been vaccinated yet and the virus is still running rampant in practically every country.


This discussion has been closed.
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