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Home heating automation

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    #2402
    dendof
    Registered Users Posts: 214 ✭✭dendof


    deezell wrote: »
    Before the TRV comes on and calls the boiler, where is the heated water from the stove going? Is there a stove stat and pump that circulates it to the other open radiators? And are they sufficiently hot without the intervention of the oil boiler? If this is the case, then the oil will have vert little work to do if the circulating boiler water is already heated. It will add to the heat then cut out when the heated water reaches the temperature set on the boiler stat ( not a room stat). If this is set to say 55-60°, and the stove is already circulating at or near this, then it might not come on at all.
    Realistically, a boiler is a controlled system, capable of heating constantly to a desired schedule. A stove will not match it for output, unless it's one of those huge ones that can take a half barrow of fuel at a time. A more modest stove will at best assist the oil boiler to reach and keep a scheduled temperature. If you don't want the oil to come on when a TRV opens, you can dissociate it from any main Tado stat relay. It will now just open and close, and expect there to be a heat flow over which it has no control. If the stove is not lit or is only ticking over, there won't be sufficient heat in the flow to bring the room up to temperature quickly. It's a question of choice, controlled on demand heating to a temperature schedule, or incidental heating at the mercy of the stove.
    Thanks for the reply deezell :)

    Currently the water that the stove heats goes to all the rads bar the TRV one.
    There is a stat set to 60 to be pumped then.
    So I guess then the oil is not getting used a lot, even if geting called a bit by the TRV.
    Think I'm safe to expand the TRVs for Black Friday!


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    #2403
    deezell
    Registered Users Posts: 6,525 ✭✭✭deezell


    Fwiw, oil heating is costing about 4.4c per KWh at the moment, with the current low cost of kerosene. Solid fuel for the stove is much higher, smokeless stove nuggets run at 5.55c per KWh, and bagged dried timber is up to near double that, with bulk bought softwood the best value at 5.57c/KWh. Efficiency also comes into play, a modern condenser boiler is over 92% efficient, a stove struggles to achieve 70%, usually because too much air is admitted and very hot flue gasses are escaping up the chimney, compared to the tepid steam that leaves an oil condenser boiler. It's not necessarily cost effective to be trying to 'save' oil by using solid fuel.
    I love the stove, but I'm conscious that it's more expensive to run full house heating on purchased fuel, plus you have to drive to collect it, dispose of ash etc. If you have a good supply of your own timber, an axe and a saw, then you are making a saving, and as the old Chinese saying goes, ' He who chops his own firewood, warms himself twice.' Ah so.


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    #2404
    planck26
    Registered Users Posts: 19 ✭planck26


    Hi, newbie here thinking of making the leap for a Tado system (or similar), and would appreciate a sensecheck from the resident experts please...
    Current system: Viessmann gas condenser boiler, single zone with 12 rads (old manual TRVs) and HW cylinder (with motorized valve and manual thermostat). Danfoss 2-channel programmer (FP715Si) and single manual thermostat in the hall, wired to the boiler in the utility room.
    I want to put smart TRVs (initially 4) in some rooms to give me better temp control, and some degree of zoning. The key room is a large open kitchen/living space with two big rads.
    Some questions:

    1. Am I right in thinking that for the kitchen/living room I'd need a "Wireless Temperature Sensor" (in Tado-speak) to manage the two TRVs?
    2. Do I need to replace the current Danfoss programmer with the "Extension Kit", or should I just replace the thermostat and TRVs?
    3. I think I need Tado's "Wireless Heating and Hot Water Starter Pack" and a pack of TRVs - is that right?
    4. And finally, very much a "nice to have"... would Tado or any other system allow me to also control an electric rad in a garden room, via the same app?

    Thanks for any guidance.


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    #2405
    deezell
    Registered Users Posts: 6,525 ✭✭✭deezell


    planck26 wrote: »
    Hi, newbie here thinking of making the leap for a Tado system (or similar), and would appreciate a sensecheck from the resident experts please...
    Current system: Viessmann gas condenser boiler, single zone with 12 rads (old manual TRVs) and HW cylinder (with motorized valve and manual thermostat). Danfoss 2-channel programmer (FP715Si) and single manual thermostat in the hall, wired to the boiler in the utility room.
    I want to put smart TRVs (initially 4) in some rooms to give me better temp control, and some degree of zoning. The key room is a large open kitchen/living space with two big rads.
    Some questions:

    1. Am I right in thinking that for the kitchen/living room I'd need a "Wireless Temperature Sensor" (in Tado-speak) to manage the two TRVs?
    2. Do I need to replace the current Danfoss programmer with the "Extension Kit", or should I just replace the thermostat and TRVs?
    3. I think I need Tado's "Wireless Heating and Hot Water Starter Pack" and a pack of TRVs - is that right?
    4. And finally, very much a "nice to have"... would Tado or any other system allow me to also control an electric rad in a garden room, via the same app?

    Thanks for any guidance.

    1. Only if you want. You can slave one TRV off the other, using its temperature sensor for both.
    2. Your choice. If You want HW timing on the app, get the kit.
    3. Yes if you want the ext kit.

    4. I can think of three ootions.
    a. If you get the ext kit, but continue to use the Danfoss for HW timing, you can use the ext kit HW live signal to operate a mains relay for your electric rad, which I assume has its own built in stat.
    b. If you want independent control, just add an additional tafo stat to the garden room, use it's output to switch a mains relay to turn on the electric rad.
    c. Alternatively, you could link a tado zone via smart software such as IFTTT to operate a smart mains switch/socket, so when say " Kitchen Zone" is on, IFTTT will detect and operate Garden room mains relay.


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    #2406
    planck26
    Registered Users Posts: 19 ✭planck26


    deezell wrote: »
    1. Only if you want. You can slave one TRV off the other, using its temperature sensor for both.
    2. Your choice. If You want HW timing on the app, get the kit.
    3. Yes if you want the ext kit.

    4. I can think of three ootions.
    a. If you get the ext kit, but continue to use the Danfoss for HW timing, you can use the ext kit HW live signal to operate a mains relay for your electric rad, which I assume has its own built in stat.
    b. If you want independent control, just add an additional tafo stat to the garden room, use it's output to switch a mains relay to turn on the electric rad.
    c. Alternatively, you could link a tado zone via smart software such as IFTTT to operate a smart mains switch/socket, so when say " Kitchen Zone" is on, IFTTT will detect and operate Garden room mains relay.

    Excellent, I'll try slaving the TRVs first so. Good to know there are some options for the electric rad too. Now just a matter of timing for a good Black Friday deal...

    Thanks for your help deezell, much appreciated. :)


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    #2407
    paulgrogan.eu
    Registered Users Posts: 289 ✭✭paulgrogan.eu


    planck26 wrote: »
    Excellent, I'll try slaving the TRVs first so. Good to know there are some options for the electric rad too. Now just a matter of timing for a good Black Friday deal...

    Thanks for your help deezell, much appreciated. :)


    As a recent convert of a very basic system to full Tado, you're in for the world of pleasure I can assure you. I did my install over the summer and it's been great since. Like you I bought up the parts when they were on various cyber / black sales etc, and probably got nearly 50% off it all. In terms of the TRV's, watch for deals on the quatro packs (4 packs). I have smart TRV's on all my rads and it's amazing, well worth the investment, but did so when they were on sale.


    Just on this particular point here, Deezell is 100% here, however I do have a large kitchen like yours and I'm finding a little snag in that the TRV I use to monitor the temp gets blocked if one of the doors is left open and thus doesn't read right. I could use another stat, but I'm having issues with it dropping offline due to its distance from the Bridge (to be solved soon). However overall I feel the wireless sensor that they've recently released is a great offering and something that I'm going to move too, as I think it will allow me to just have a more central location for my temp sensor and also given it's such a large room, for anyone visiting it will offer an easy to find location to adjust that room's temp. Tado have a deal on these at the moment so that's just worth keeping in mind.


    But again what Deezell is saying is 100% accurate and will work.


    Paul


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    #2408
    christy c
    Registered Users Posts: 2,193 ✭✭✭christy c


    Trying to add Drayton wiser to Google Home and keep getting the message "Couldn't update the setting. Check your connection" after signing in to wiser. Anyone manage to fix this? Seems a common problem for Hue lighting.

    Special thanks to Deezell for his advice on the the initial set up of the system.


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    #2409
    championc
    Registered Users Posts: 6,074 ✭✭✭championc


    planck26 wrote: »
    Excellent, I'll try slaving the TRVs first so. Good to know there are some options for the electric rad too. Now just a matter of timing for a good Black Friday deal...

    Thanks for your help deezell, much appreciated. :)

    Just one thing to bear in mind but TRV's can only be grouped in groups of 10 for the purpose of calling for heat. In other words, each TRV has the ability to actually fire the boiler independently. So you can set all rads off and when you turn one rad on, the boiler will fire and just that single room will be warmed to your desired temperature.

    So if you go with 12, then two units can act normally regarding opening and closing at the chosen temperature, but if the boiler is off, it cannot turn the boiler on.

    However, joining two rad TRV's together may then mean than you are just down to one remaining.

    But there's no doubt that Tado is a fantastic system. The flexibility is brilliant, particularly being able to heat individual rooms with all others turned off. So I might use more gas by heating when I didn't previously turn the heating on, but I'm saving by just only heating the rooms in use at particular times.

    For instance (and for the benefit of those considering installing Tado), I don't heat my sitting room in the mornings, and only do on Saturday and Sunday afternoons. I could heat the bathroom from 07:00 to 07:15 and maybe the kitchen from 07:15 to 07:30 and from 09:00 onwards, and at specific temperatures each time


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    #2410
    SierraTango
    Registered Users Posts: 114 ✭✭SierraTango


    Looking for a bit of advice on a smart heating system. I have an air to water heat pump and two zones and HW. Noticed the tado was on sale. Would I be able to use smart TRVs with a low temperature rad?


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    #2411
    deezell
    Registered Users Posts: 6,525 ✭✭✭deezell


    SierraTango wrote: »
    Looking for a bit of advice on a smart heating system. I have an air to water heat pump and two zones and HW. Noticed the tado was on sale. Would I be able to use smart TRVs with a low temperature rad?

    No reason why not, the principle is the same, as long as the heat pump is called by a Tado thermostat relay, then the TRVs can actively call the system for heat as well as individual control of their room/zone.
    Tado indicates control for heating only in air to water systems, which implies HW supply remains under control of the heat pump controller, which is fine.

    EDIT; Check that the valve bodies on your radiators are TRV valves, not ordinary screw down tap like valves. If these need to be changed, it's likely that the radiator valve spigot is of a larger bore, typically 1 inch for low temperature radiators, so you will need to source valve TRV bodies that can handle the possibly greater flow from a low temperature system. Add a photo of the rad valve bodies currently fitted if you can.


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    #2412
    masterboy123
    Registered Users Posts: 5,721 ✭✭✭masterboy123


    I am running tight on budget.

    Is there a cheaper smart thermostat than Drayton?

    2 heating zones + 1 hot water.


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    #2413
    deezell
    Registered Users Posts: 6,525 ✭✭✭deezell


    masterboy123 wrote: »
    I am running tight on budget.

    Is there a cheaper smart thermostat than Drayton?

    2 heating zones + 1 hot water.

    Drayton hard to beat, currently about €200, but keep an eye out for black cyber punk deals or whatever. Tado were hugely discounted for a 12 hr window, you could have brought in a two zone+HW kit for about that. Drayton very easy to Insta'll, especially if you have a current 3 zone controller on the wall.


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    #2414
    masterboy123
    Registered Users Posts: 5,721 ✭✭✭masterboy123


    Thanks Deezell.
    I will wait for the black Friday deal.
    I contacted an electrician who said he will charge €100 for installation of any smart system. Could I do it myself? Please see attached image of what we have now.


    20201105-110823.jpg
    deezell wrote: »
    Drayton hard to beat, currently about €200, but keep an eye out for black cyber punk deals or whatever. Tado were hugely discounted for a 12 hr window, you could have brought in a two zone+HW kit for about that. Drayton very easy to Insta'll, especially if you have a current 3 zone controller on the wall.


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    #2415
    deezell
    Registered Users Posts: 6,525 ✭✭✭deezell


    masterboy123 wrote: »
    Thanks Deezell.
    I will wait for the black Friday deal.
    I contacted an electrician who said he will charge €100 for installation of any smart system. Could I do it myself? Please see attached image of what we have now.

    Do you have wall thermostats in the two zones? Either way, it's a cinch to swap Drayton Wiser 3 zone controller for the EPH, the wiser stats are wireless, if you have existing wired stats to the EPH, remove and link the wires, or else leave and turn up full. Tado install a little different, only one stat can be wireless, one must be wired.


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    #2416
    Sleepy
    Registered Users Posts: 24,158 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    We had the heating controls upgraded last year and got what I'm pretty sure is a BEOK BOT-313 WiFi Thermostat installed. Everything worked fine until we changed WiFi provider from Vodafone to Eir and ever since installing the new router, we've been unable to get the mobile app to connect to the thermostat (following the connection instructions in the link above)

    What I've tried to date to resolve the issue:

    1. Ensured the router (an Eir branded Sagecom model) has it's 2.4 ghz WiFi channel configured to "802.11b+g+n"
    2. Uninstalled and re-installed the Beok Home(eu) app on my mobile


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    #2417
    deezell
    Registered Users Posts: 6,525 ✭✭✭deezell


    Sleepy wrote: »
    We had the heating controls upgraded last year and got what I'm pretty sure is a BEOK BOT-313 WiFi Thermostat installed. Everything worked fine until we changed WiFi provider from Vodafone to Eir and ever since installing the new router, we've been unable to get the mobile app to connect to the thermostat (following the connection instructions in the link above)

    What I've tried to date to resolve the issue:

    1. Ensured the router (an Eir branded Sagecom model) has it's 2.4 ghz WiFi channel configured to "802.11b+g+n"
    2. Uninstalled and re-installed the Beok Home(eu) app on my mobile

    Factory reset the Beok.


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    #2418
    Sleepy
    Registered Users Posts: 24,158 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    deezell wrote: »
    Factory reset the Beok.


    Via holding down the down arrow, pressing power and then M until getting to the FAC setting and changing it to 10 or 32? I've tried both options every time I've tried to connect in order to get the wifi icon flashing fast.

    There doesn't appear to be a hardware option for resetting There's a small hole at the bottom but inserting a pin doesn't seem to meet any resistance or reset switch?


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    #2419
    deezell
    Registered Users Posts: 6,525 ✭✭✭deezell


    Sleepy wrote: »
    Via holding down the down arrow, pressing power and then M until getting to the FAC setting and changing it to 10 or 32? I've tried both options every time I've tried to connect in order to get the wifi icon flashing fast.

    There doesn't appear to be a hardware option for resetting There's a small hole at the bottom but inserting a pin doesn't seem to meet any resistance or reset switch?

    Also try the WPS button on the router when connecting


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    #2420
    Sleepy
    Registered Users Posts: 24,158 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    No joy. Other things I've tried:

    Removed all special characters from the ssid and password for the 2.4ghz channel, currently just upper and lower case letters
    Have tried with phone both connected and disconnected from the 2.4ghz wifi, mobile data switched off for both attempts.
    Tried on both FAC settings (10 and 32)

    I'm 99% sure this is something to do with the router rather than the thermostat as it worked flawlessly on our older Vodafone router (which sadly they actually collected for a change, was hoping to swap it for the Eir router).


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    #2421
    deezell
    Registered Users Posts: 6,525 ✭✭✭deezell


    Sleepy wrote: »
    No joy. Other things I've tried:

    Removed all special characters from the ssid and password for the 2.4ghz channel, currently just upper and lower case letters
    Have tried with phone both connected and disconnected from the 2.4ghz wifi, mobile data switched off for both attempts.
    Tried on both FAC settings (10 and 32)

    I'm 99% sure this is something to do with the router rather than the thermostat as it worked flawlessly on our older Vodafone router (which sadly they actually collected for a change, was hoping to swap it for the Eir router).

    This exact problem arose for a poster on August, I posted on
    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=114458166&postcount=2094

    The key suggestion was to turn off 10Gz in the router, and have the phone app connected by 2.4 so it would hand over this connection to the BEOK. Later you can turn on dual 10/2.4. The OP replied that the WPS button had solved it.


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    #2422
    Sleepy
    Registered Users Posts: 24,158 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    Hmm, had a look at that post. Wi-Fi Analyzer sees only our router SSID and some of our neighbours even when within a foot of the thermostat... No signal visible at all from it when in "Twinkly mode".


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    #2423
    championc
    Registered Users Posts: 6,074 ✭✭✭championc


    Sleepy wrote: »
    No joy. Other things I've tried:

    Removed all special characters from the ssid and password for the 2.4ghz channel, currently just upper and lower case letters
    Have tried with phone both connected and disconnected from the 2.4ghz wifi, mobile data switched off for both attempts.
    Tried on both FAC settings (10 and 32)

    I'm 99% sure this is something to do with the router rather than the thermostat as it worked flawlessly on our older Vodafone router (which sadly they actually collected for a change, was hoping to swap it for the Eir router).

    Try restricting your SSID to 802.11b/g only, until you get it setup ???


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    #2424
    John mac
    Registered Users Posts: 5,111 ✭✭✭John mac


    so my controller died last week , (had an old clock timer in the garage so its ok for now ,
    right now i dont have a thermostat , i have trv's on most of the rads , and no 3way for just heating hot water ,
    have a ball valve i turn off for summer just to heat hot water . (no immersion either )
    now for new controller , have a short list , not in any order

    Hive,
    honeywell TR6
    drayron wiser
    nest

    am I missing anything obvious , tado seems to be off the table as its charging a sub .

    can they all controll extra trvs, like the drayton ?
    are the tvr's compatible with each other ?

    thanks


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    #2425
    masterboy123
    Registered Users Posts: 5,721 ✭✭✭masterboy123


    Is it possible to get Drayton Wiser without their radiator valves?
    Thanks
    deezell wrote: »
    Drayton hard to beat, currently about €200, but keep an eye out for black cyber punk deals or whatever. Tado were hugely discounted for a 12 hr window, you could have brought in a two zone+HW kit for about that. Drayton very easy to Insta'll, especially if you have a current 3 zone controller on the wall.


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    #2426
    championc
    Registered Users Posts: 6,074 ✭✭✭championc


    John mac wrote: »
    am I missing anything obvious , tado seems to be off the table as its charging a sub .

    Yes you are I think - the Tado subscription only covers Open Window Detection and Geofencing (turning the heating off if you leave the house)

    I'm not overly convinced with the operation of the open window detection since many times, a rad has come on in a room with an open window. And for the Geofencing, you can't have the house freezing during winter if you head off to work for the day.

    Mind you, I just bought a second hand v3 Internet Bridge and I've both for free. All other components are brand new v3+ bits


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    #2427
    deezell
    Registered Users Posts: 6,525 ✭✭✭deezell


    masterboy123 wrote: »
    Is it possible to get Drayton Wiser without their radiator valves?
    Thanks

    Yes of course. The Kit 1, 2 and 3 are just stats with one or two CH zones, and optional HW control. TRVs can be added later if required.


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    #2428
    deezell
    Registered Users Posts: 6,525 ✭✭✭deezell


    John mac wrote: »
    so my controller died last week , (had an old clock timer in the garage so its ok for now ,
    right now i dont have a thermostat , i have trv's on most of the rads , and no 3way for just heating hot water ,
    have a ball valve i turn off for summer just to heat hot water . (no immersion either )
    now for new controller , have a short list , not in any order

    Hive,
    honeywell TR6
    drayron wiser
    nest

    am I missing anything obvious , tado seems to be off the table as its charging a sub .

    can they all controll extra trvs, like the drayton ?
    are the tvr's compatible with each other ?

    thanks
    TRVs are unique to their brand.

    Nest have no integrated TRV product.

    If you want summer HW only you need to install a motorised valve in place of the ball valve, controlled from your chosen stat/controller. The motorised valve has a relay built in to fire the boiler when CH is on. You can then connect the HW timer relay of your chosen system directly to the boiler to supply HW only in the summer, or any time. Note this is not a full 2 zone system, HW will also heat during a CH call.


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    #2429
    masterboy123
    Registered Users Posts: 5,721 ✭✭✭masterboy123


    Thanks so much.

    I am midway between picking up Drayton 3 Channel thermostat vs Hive system. Both are coming at the same price 200 pounds.

    Any thoughts?
    deezell wrote: »
    Yes of course. The Kit 1, 2 and 3 are just stats with one or two CH zones, and optional HW control. TRVs can be added later if required.


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    #2430
    emaherx
    Registered Users Posts: 5,980 ✭✭✭emaherx


    championc wrote: »
    And for the Geofencing, you can't have the house freezing during winter if you head off to work for the day.

    No, but surely you can set a lower temperature for while you are away?


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    #2431
    deezell
    Registered Users Posts: 6,525 ✭✭✭deezell


    masterboy123 wrote: »
    Thanks so much.

    I am midway between picking up Drayton 3 Channel thermostat vs Hive system. Both are coming at the same price 200 pounds.

    Any thoughts?

    If your existing 3 zone system has a single 3 channel controller, the Drayton Kit 3 receiver is a simple swap, box for box. For 3 zones hive requires two receivers, still a simple install.


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