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Primary school admission, discriminating by age

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  • 10-11-2020 4:03pm
    #1
    Electric Nitwit
    Registered Users Posts: 10,717 ✭✭✭✭


    Hi all,

    I'm looking into primary school admission for my daughter, who is a June birth. We're moving area so have missed the waiting lists closing which is frustrating but can't be helped

    We're looking at Maynooth Educate Together but I think this is a more general point. Would others agree that giving preference to older children over younger is extremely unfair?

    I don't mean prioritising 5 year olds over 4 year olds, I mean prioritising winter births over summer births, which is how I read the admission policy, which states:
    7. Oversubscription
    a) Junior Infants

    In the event that the school is oversubscribed, the school will, when deciding on applications for admission, apply the following selection criteria in the order listed below to those applications that are received within the timeline for receipt of applications as set out in the school's annual admission notice for Junior Infants:

    Priority Category 1: Applicant students who are siblings of children and enrolled in the school at the same time with priority to students who are 4 years of age on or before 1 June of the year the school year concerned

    Priority Category 2: Applicant students who are 4 years of age on or before 1 June of the year the school year concerned:

    Priority Category 3: All other applicants

    In the event that there are two or more students tied for a place or places in any of the selection criteria categories above (the number of applicants exceeds the number of remaining places), by way of age with the place allocated to the older child.

    In an oversubscribed school such as this, does the underlined section imply they're virtually closed to children born late in the school year? (As well as no longer accepting four year olds)
    I plan to contact the school about this to discuss my concern but I wanted to check first if others think I'm right to be concerned

    I've had a quick check of other ET schools and, for all the others I looked at, the final stage is a lottery, which seems much fairer

    Thanks in advance for any input


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    #2
    byhookorbycrook
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,481 Mod ✭✭✭✭byhookorbycrook


    Each school is free to set its own admissions policy, once it's in line with the 2018 Act. Older children should be prioritized, in my opinion. By setting the date at 4 years in June before admission, I think that's more "generous" than is usual, age wise.


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    #3
    Electric Nitwit
    Registered Users Posts: 10,717 ✭✭✭✭Electric Nitwit


    byhookorbycrook wrote: »
    Each school is free to set its own admissions policy, once it's in line with the 2018 Act. Older children should be prioritized, in my opinion. By setting the date at 4 years in June before admission, I think that's more "generous" than is usual, age wise.
    I absolutely get that each school sets their own policy, but I don't see why you think older children should get priority. Maybe we're looking at it differently...

    If there's one place left and there's a 4yr old and a 5yr old, fair enough. The 4yr old could defer and benefit the following year

    But if there's one place left and two kids aged, say, 5yrs 1 month and 5 years 6 months, why should the eldest get priority?


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    #4
    Jim2007
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,026 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    We're looking at Maynooth Educate Together but I think this is a more general point. Would others agree that giving preference to older children over younger is extremely unfair?

    I don’t see how fair comes into it. So long as they are complying with the law there is nothing to argue about.

    It would see logical that you take older children first as their need is greater. Younger children will benefit from being older on entry, older children will not.


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    #5
    Jim2007
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,026 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    Electric Nitwit wrote: »
    If there's one place left and there's a 4yr old and a 5yr old, fair enough. The 4yr old could defer and benefit the following year

    But if there's one place left and two kids aged, say, 5yrs 1 month and 5 years 6 months, why should the eldest get priority?

    That is called consistency, it’s what people prefer and it is easier to explain and be understood.


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    #6
    Electric Nitwit
    Registered Users Posts: 10,717 ✭✭✭✭Electric Nitwit


    Jim2007 wrote: »
    I don’t see how fair comes into it. So long as they are complying with the law there is nothing to argue about.

    It would see logical that you take older children first as their need is greater. Younger children will benefit from being older on entry, older children will not.
    Again, I'm not questioning passing on kids who can defer a year. I'm questioning prioritising, say, a January birth over a March birth


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    #7
    byhookorbycrook
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,481 Mod ✭✭✭✭byhookorbycrook


    Unfortunately, if a school is oversubscribed, they have to cut off somehow- age is open and transparent, I'd prefer it to a "lottery."
    ETA Not implying that schools mentioned would do anything underhand.


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    #8
    jrosen
    Registered Users Posts: 1,629 ✭✭✭jrosen


    Its nothing to do with discrimination and all to do with managing numbers.

    Schools have to have a cut off as they simply cant accept each and every child that applies. There are only so many school teachers, classrooms and therefore so many bums allowed on seats.

    Edit to add, if you apply for JI and its a low birth year chances are all students would be accepted. Even those closer to age 4. But if you apply and it happens to be a high birth year for that community then there simply has to be a cut off


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    #9
    Electric Nitwit
    Registered Users Posts: 10,717 ✭✭✭✭Electric Nitwit


    byhookorbycrook wrote: »
    Unfortunately, if a school is oversubscribed, they have to cut off somehow- age is open and transparent, I'd prefer it to a "lottery."
    ETA Not implying that schools mentioned would do anything underhand.
    Can I ask why you'd prefer it to a lottery?
    Obviously I'm biased with a summer child, but I feel it's very unfair that she likely has no chance when a lottery would treat all children fairly. Especially so given its Educate Together and their charter states "all children have equal rights of access to the school"

    Regarding open and transparent, the same could be said if they prioritised alphabetically by surname. If you were "Young" you'd feel pretty aggrieved by that, wouldn't you?
    jrosen wrote: »
    Its nothing to do with discrimination and all to do with managing numbers.

    Schools have to have a cut off as they simply cant accept each and every child that applies. There are only so many school teachers, classrooms and therefore so many bums allowed on seats
    Again, I completely understand the need to have a policy for oversubscription, but why should the cut off be by age? From what I can see, most don't, most have a lottery


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    #10
    glack
    Registered Users Posts: 692 ✭✭✭glack


    I think the age criteria works when it means a 5 year old gets a place over a four year old - this I have no issue with. But generally speaking, any child who is 5 needs to be going to school that September. So prioritising those older in that case is unfair. Any school I know that uses age, it results in all/most children being 5 getting a place and the 4 year olds would be prioritised the following year - so eventually all children will get a place.


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    #11
    jrosen
    Registered Users Posts: 1,629 ✭✭✭jrosen


    Electric Nitwit wrote: »
    Can I ask why you'd prefer it to a lottery?
    Obviously I'm biased with a summer child, but I feel it's very unfair that she likely has no chance when a lottery would treat all children fairly. Especially so given its Educate Together and their charter states "all children have equal rights of access to the school"


    Again, I completely understand the need to have a policy for oversubscription, but why should the cut off be by age? From what I can see, most don't, most have a lottery

    What do you think the cut off should be if not age?

    Generally enrollment policies allow for siblings/children of teachers etc. Age is listed but typically only when a school is oversubscribed will the school defer to age.
    The alternative is you can have a 4 year old start and leave a 5.5 year old without a place. That makes no sense.
    But if you have a year with mostly 5+ kids, then unfortunately the youngest gets the cut. It seems pretty sensible and fair to me

    I say that as a parent with Summer kids


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    #12
    Electric Nitwit
    Registered Users Posts: 10,717 ✭✭✭✭Electric Nitwit


    jrosen wrote: »
    What do you think the cut off should be if not age?

    Generally enrollment policies allow for siblings/children of teachers etc. Age is listed but typically only when a school is oversubscribed will the school defer to age.
    The alternative is you can have a 4 year old start and leave a 5.5 year old without a place. That makes no sense.
    But if you have a year with mostly 5+ kids, then unfortunately the youngest gets the cut. It seems pretty sensible and fair to me

    I say that as a parent with Summer kids
    As I said, most other schools I've checked say it's a lottery (after siblings etc) which is undeniably fair. Personally I think locality should be used as a factor but I get how that's not practical everywhere. And again, I understand a 5yr old over a 4yr old who can defer a year

    We obviously just disagree, but I don't get how you think the youngest getting the cut is sensible or fair. Born in November? First choice for you. Born in June? Ooh, sorry? Never mind that you're well documented to be at a disadvantage already, now you get shunted down the road too


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    #13
    Feets
    Registered Users Posts: 270 ✭✭Feets


    From other schools that I have seen, some do have a cut off, it could be March or June. This tends to happen in populated areas with a young population. The school basically knows it can fill it with the June cut off. It makes sense to do it that way...


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    #14
    Deeec
    Registered Users Posts: 4,735 ✭✭✭Deeec


    A child with a summer birth date should start school at 5. It is crazy to start a child at age 4 - the maturity they gain in that extra year makes a huge difference. The school is right to use age - it is not discrimination - in most cases the child will be top of the list for a place in the school the following year. Also please don't contact the school to discuss this issue - you very well may find your child will not get a place ever in that school!!


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    #15
    Electric Nitwit
    Registered Users Posts: 10,717 ✭✭✭✭Electric Nitwit


    Deeec wrote: »
    A child with a summer birth date should start school at 5. It is crazy to start a child at age 4 - the maturity they gain in that extra year makes a huge difference
    Again, I've said several times I have no issue with them picking 5yr olds over 4yr olds who can defer. My issue is over two five year olds being decided between by age
    Deeec wrote: »
    ...in most cases the child will be top of the list for a place in the school the following year
    I wish I believed this, but I just don't. Especially as the initial priority goes to the existing waiting lists so there's very few places left to be allocating
    Deeec wrote: »
    Also please don't contact the school to discuss this issue - you very well may find your child will not get a place ever in that school!!
    That has crossed my mind! But I'd like think they wouldn't actually do that


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    #16
    Deeec
    Registered Users Posts: 4,735 ✭✭✭Deeec


    Electric Nitwit wrote: »
    Again, I've said several times I have no issue with them picking 5yr olds over 4yr olds who can defer. My issue is over two five year olds being decided between by age

    I think in the case of two five year children close in age other criteria will be looked at to decide - siblings, proximity to school. In the school my children attend having a parent who attended the school is also a big advantage.


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    #17
    Electric Nitwit
    Registered Users Posts: 10,717 ✭✭✭✭Electric Nitwit


    Deeec wrote: »
    I think in the case of two five year children close in age other criteria will be looked at to decide - siblings, proximity to school. In the school my children attend having a parent who attended the school is also a big advantage.
    I copied the full policy into the OP, they use siblings initially but absolutely don't use any other criteria afterwards (well, they certainly don't disclose it anyway)


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    #18
    Del2005
    Registered Users Posts: 18,897 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    Electric Nitwit wrote: »
    As I said, most other schools I've checked say it's a lottery (after siblings etc) which is undeniably fair. Personally I think locality should be used as a factor but I get how that's not practical everywhere. And again, I understand a 5yr old over a 4yr old who can defer a year

    We obviously just disagree, but I don't get how you think the youngest getting the cut is sensible or fair. Born in November? First choice for you. Born in June? Ooh, sorry? Never mind that you're well documented to be at a disadvantage already, now you get shunted down the road too

    So you are willing to accept selection on family status, which is one of the 9 discrimination groups, but not age, which is also one but doesn't apply to under 18s.

    If you don't like age limits then family status should be a similar issue, why should a 4 year old with a sibling get in ahead of a 5 year old without?


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    #19
    Princess Calla
    Registered Users Posts: 5,802 ✭✭✭Princess Calla


    Electric Nitwit wrote: »
    Again, I've said several times I have no issue with them picking 5yr olds over 4yr olds who can defer. My issue is over two five year olds being decided between by age


    I wish I believed this, but I just don't. Especially as the initial priority goes to the existing waiting lists so there's very few places left to be allocating


    That has crossed my mind! But I'd like think they wouldn't actually do that

    Where in the guidelines does it mention 5 year olds?

    4 is the youngest they will take , but 5 year olds will get priority over them.

    If the whole class is made up of 5 year olds and over subscribed of course the youngest will not be accepted. It makes much more sense for the youngest to join the following years class. A January 5 year old will be 5 and 9 months starting school if they missed out on the place they'd be 6 and 9 months, nearly 7 starting school with the potential of being in a class with 4 year olds is crazy. At least the June child would be closer to 6 starting school.

    Though if you don't like the school rules you don't have to send your child to that particular school.


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    #20
    Deeec
    Registered Users Posts: 4,735 ✭✭✭Deeec


    Electric Nitwit wrote: »
    I copied the full policy into the OP, they use siblings initially but absolutely don't use any other criteria afterwards (well, they certainly don't disclose it anyway)

    If you know any parents with children in the school maybe have a chat with them and see if they know what procedures there is. I think sometimes the 'criteria' for rejecting a child are not always transparent - sometimes age doesnt even come into it. Its very hard to prove the school is discriminating though.


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    #21
    Electric Nitwit
    Registered Users Posts: 10,717 ✭✭✭✭Electric Nitwit


    Princess Calla wrote: »
    A January 5 year old will be 5 and 9 months starting school if they missed out on the place they'd be 6 and 9 months, nearly 7 starting school with the potential of being in a class with 4 year olds is crazy. At least the June child would be closer to 6 starting school
    Legally, children must have started their formal education by the age of 6 years so deferment is not an option


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    #22
    Deeec
    Registered Users Posts: 4,735 ✭✭✭Deeec


    Electric Nitwit wrote: »
    Legally, children must have started their formal education by the age of 6 years so deferment is not an option

    Unfortunately you cant always get what you want. Your child is not gauranteed a place until it is offered. If a 5 year old isnt offered a place in the school then you have to find another school. Most people in high demand areas would apply to several different schools.


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    #23
    Electric Nitwit
    Registered Users Posts: 10,717 ✭✭✭✭Electric Nitwit


    Deeec wrote: »
    Unfortunately you cant always get what you want. Your child is not gauranteed a place until it is offered. If a 5 year old isnt offered a place in the school then you have to find another school. Most people in high demand areas would apply to several different schools.
    I absolutely get that, that was a reply to someone talking about them starting at 6+

    I completely understand that popular schools are oversubscribed and there's no way to guarantee a place. But I still take issue with age being a decisive factor


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    #24
    byhookorbycrook
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,481 Mod ✭✭✭✭byhookorbycrook


    Electric Nitwit wrote: »
    Legally, children must have started their formal education by the age of 6 years so deferment is not an option
    Yes, they must be in "school" but that doesn't mean your first choice of school. Whatever way a school tries to cut off, if oversubscribed, is going to be unpopular with someone, but that's just the way it has to be.


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    #25
    Electric Nitwit
    Registered Users Posts: 10,717 ✭✭✭✭Electric Nitwit


    byhookorbycrook wrote: »
    Yes, they must be in "school" but that doesn't mean your first choice of school. Whatever way a school tries to cut off, if oversubscribed, is going to be unpopular with someone, but that's just the way it has to be.
    Why would a lottery be unpopular?
    (in advance, I don't mean unpopular with those who miss out)


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    #26
    Deeec
    Registered Users Posts: 4,735 ✭✭✭Deeec


    Electric Nitwit wrote: »
    Why would a lottery be unpopular?
    (in advance, I don't mean unpopular with those who miss out)

    A lottery system could create situations where siblings have to attend different schools which would be difficult for parents or a child living next door to a school but has to travel 10 miles to another school because that was the luck of the draw! A lottery system would be crazy.


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    #27
    Electric Nitwit
    Registered Users Posts: 10,717 ✭✭✭✭Electric Nitwit


    Deeec wrote: »
    A lottery system could create situations where siblings have to attend different schools which would be difficult for parents...
    Applied after the sibling criteria
    Deeec wrote: »
    ...or a child living next door to a school but has to travel 10 miles to another school because that was the luck of the draw!
    What about a child living next door to a school but has to travel 10 miles to another school because they're born in the summer?
    Deeec wrote: »
    A lottery system would be crazy.
    It's what most schools that I've looked at do. I've checked other Educate Together schools, including all the ones in Kildare, to see what was normal


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    #28
    JCDUB
    Registered Users Posts: 1,225 ✭✭✭JCDUB


    Electric Nitwit wrote: »
    But I still take issue with age being a decisive factor

    Yeah, we get that. I believe you've mentioned it once or twice.
    The enrolment policy is legal, and it is what it is.
    Get over it, or else look for another school.

    Working in the industry, I can safely say that you are the type of parent that some schools will try to avoid.
    Your child isn't even attending the school and you're already about to kick up a fuss over your perception of a perfectly legitimate policy.

    Doesn't bode well for future smooth teacher/principal parent relationships........

    Mod Note: Attack the post if you must, but not the poster!


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    #29
    Electric Nitwit
    Registered Users Posts: 10,717 ✭✭✭✭Electric Nitwit


    JCDUB wrote: »
    Yeah, we get that. I believe you've mentioned it once or twice.
    The enrolment policy is legal, and it is what it is.
    Get over it, or else look for another school.

    Working in the industry, I can safely say that you are the type of parent that some schools will try to avoid.
    Your child isn't even attending the school and you're already about to kick up a fuss over your perception of a perfectly legitimate policy.

    Doesn't bode well for future smooth teacher/principal parent relationships........
    Feel free to try to address the point rather than resort to ad hominem attacks. Or feel free to not comment


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    #30
    Deeec
    Registered Users Posts: 4,735 ✭✭✭Deeec


    In my experience a 5 year old child born in the summer is ideal and will not lose out based on age. You appear to really want your child to start school at age 4 - which means they will possibly not get a place at age 4. No child is discriminated against because they were born in the summer!


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    #31
    Electric Nitwit
    Registered Users Posts: 10,717 ✭✭✭✭Electric Nitwit


    Deeec wrote: »
    In my experience a 5 year old child born in the summer is ideal and will not lose out based on age. You appear to really want your child to start school at age 4 - which means they will possibly not get a place at age 4. No child is discriminated against because they were born in the summer!
    Oh no, crossed wires. I want my kid to start when she's 5. But I worry that she'll miss out due to being a "young 5" compared to other applicants


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