Primary school admission, discriminating by age

Electric Nitwit

Hi all,

I'm looking into primary school admission for my daughter, who is a June birth. We're moving area so have missed the waiting lists closing which is frustrating but can't be helped

We're looking at Maynooth Educate Together but I think this is a more general point. Would others agree that giving preference to older children over younger is extremely unfair?

I don't mean prioritising 5 year olds over 4 year olds, I mean prioritising winter births over summer births, which is how I read the admission policy, which states:

7. Oversubscription
a) Junior Infants

In the event that the school is oversubscribed, the school will, when deciding on applications for admission, apply the following selection criteria in the order listed below to those applications that are received within the timeline for receipt of applications as set out in the school's annual admission notice for Junior Infants:

Priority Category 1: Applicant students who are siblings of children and enrolled in the school at the same time with priority to students who are 4 years of age on or before 1 June of the year the school year concerned

Priority Category 2: Applicant students who are 4 years of age on or before 1 June of the year the school year concerned:

Priority Category 3: All other applicants

In the event that there are two or more students tied for a place or places in any of the selection criteria categories above (the number of applicants exceeds the number of remaining places), by way of age with the place allocated to the older child.

In an oversubscribed school such as this, does the underlined section imply they're virtually closed to children born late in the school year? (As well as no longer accepting four year olds)
I plan to contact the school about this to discuss my concern but I wanted to check first if others think I'm right to be concerned

I've had a quick check of other ET schools and, for all the others I looked at, the final stage is a lottery, which seems much fairer

Thanks in advance for any input

byhookorbycrook

Each school is free to set its own admissions policy, once it's in line with the 2018 Act. Older children should be prioritized, in my opinion. By setting the date at 4 years in June before admission, I think that's more "generous" than is usual, age wise.

Electric Nitwit

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Each school is free to set its own admissions policy, once it's in line with the 2018 Act. Older children should be prioritized, in my opinion. By setting the date at 4 years in June before admission, I think that's more "generous" than is usual, age wise.

I absolutely get that each school sets their own policy, but I don't see why you think older children should get priority. Maybe we're looking at it differently...

If there's one place left and there's a 4yr old and a 5yr old, fair enough. The 4yr old could defer and benefit the following year

But if there's one place left and two kids aged, say, 5yrs 1 month and 5 years 6 months, why should the eldest get priority?

Jim2007

We're looking at Maynooth Educate Together but I think this is a more general point. Would others agree that giving preference to older children over younger is extremely unfair?

I don’t see how fair comes into it. So long as they are complying with the law there is nothing to argue about.

It would see logical that you take older children first as their need is greater. Younger children will benefit from being older on entry, older children will not.

Jim2007

Electric Nitwit wrote: »

If there's one place left and there's a 4yr old and a 5yr old, fair enough. The 4yr old could defer and benefit the following year

But if there's one place left and two kids aged, say, 5yrs 1 month and 5 years 6 months, why should the eldest get priority?

That is called consistency, it’s what people prefer and it is easier to explain and be understood.

Electric Nitwit

Jim2007 wrote: »

I don’t see how fair comes into it. So long as they are complying with the law there is nothing to argue about.

It would see logical that you take older children first as their need is greater. Younger children will benefit from being older on entry, older children will not.

Again, I'm not questioning passing on kids who can defer a year. I'm questioning prioritising, say, a January birth over a March birth

byhookorbycrook

Unfortunately, if a school is oversubscribed, they have to cut off somehow- age is open and transparent, I'd prefer it to a "lottery."
ETA Not implying that schools mentioned would do anything underhand.

jrosen

Its nothing to do with discrimination and all to do with managing numbers.

Schools have to have a cut off as they simply cant accept each and every child that applies. There are only so many school teachers, classrooms and therefore so many bums allowed on seats.

Edit to add, if you apply for JI and its a low birth year chances are all students would be accepted. Even those closer to age 4. But if you apply and it happens to be a high birth year for that community then there simply has to be a cut off

Electric Nitwit

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Unfortunately, if a school is oversubscribed, they have to cut off somehow- age is open and transparent, I'd prefer it to a "lottery."
ETA Not implying that schools mentioned would do anything underhand.

Can I ask why you'd prefer it to a lottery?
Obviously I'm biased with a summer child, but I feel it's very unfair that she likely has no chance when a lottery would treat all children fairly. Especially so given its Educate Together and their charter states "all children have equal rights of access to the school"

Regarding open and transparent, the same could be said if they prioritised alphabetically by surname. If you were "Young" you'd feel pretty aggrieved by that, wouldn't you?

jrosen wrote: »

Its nothing to do with discrimination and all to do with managing numbers.

Schools have to have a cut off as they simply cant accept each and every child that applies. There are only so many school teachers, classrooms and therefore so many bums allowed on seats

Again, I completely understand the need to have a policy for oversubscription, but why should the cut off be by age? From what I can see, most don't, most have a lottery

glack

I think the age criteria works when it means a 5 year old gets a place over a four year old - this I have no issue with. But generally speaking, any child who is 5 needs to be going to school that September. So prioritising those older in that case is unfair. Any school I know that uses age, it results in all/most children being 5 getting a place and the 4 year olds would be prioritised the following year - so eventually all children will get a place.

jrosen

Electric Nitwit wrote: »

Can I ask why you'd prefer it to a lottery?
Obviously I'm biased with a summer child, but I feel it's very unfair that she likely has no chance when a lottery would treat all children fairly. Especially so given its Educate Together and their charter states "all children have equal rights of access to the school"


Again, I completely understand the need to have a policy for oversubscription, but why should the cut off be by age? From what I can see, most don't, most have a lottery

What do you think the cut off should be if not age?

Generally enrollment policies allow for siblings/children of teachers etc. Age is listed but typically only when a school is oversubscribed will the school defer to age.
The alternative is you can have a 4 year old start and leave a 5.5 year old without a place. That makes no sense.
But if you have a year with mostly 5+ kids, then unfortunately the youngest gets the cut. It seems pretty sensible and fair to me

I say that as a parent with Summer kids

Electric Nitwit

jrosen wrote: »

What do you think the cut off should be if not age?

Generally enrollment policies allow for siblings/children of teachers etc. Age is listed but typically only when a school is oversubscribed will the school defer to age.
The alternative is you can have a 4 year old start and leave a 5.5 year old without a place. That makes no sense.
But if you have a year with mostly 5+ kids, then unfortunately the youngest gets the cut. It seems pretty sensible and fair to me

I say that as a parent with Summer kids

As I said, most other schools I've checked say it's a lottery (after siblings etc) which is undeniably fair. Personally I think locality should be used as a factor but I get how that's not practical everywhere. And again, I understand a 5yr old over a 4yr old who can defer a year

We obviously just disagree, but I don't get how you think the youngest getting the cut is sensible or fair. Born in November? First choice for you. Born in June? Ooh, sorry? Never mind that you're well documented to be at a disadvantage already, now you get shunted down the road too

Feets

From other schools that I have seen, some do have a cut off, it could be March or June. This tends to happen in populated areas with a young population. The school basically knows it can fill it with the June cut off. It makes sense to do it that way...

Deeec

A child with a summer birth date should start school at 5. It is crazy to start a child at age 4 - the maturity they gain in that extra year makes a huge difference. The school is right to use age - it is not discrimination - in most cases the child will be top of the list for a place in the school the following year. Also please don't contact the school to discuss this issue - you very well may find your child will not get a place ever in that school!!

Electric Nitwit

Deeec wrote: »

A child with a summer birth date should start school at 5. It is crazy to start a child at age 4 - the maturity they gain in that extra year makes a huge difference

Again, I've said several times I have no issue with them picking 5yr olds over 4yr olds who can defer. My issue is over two five year olds being decided between by age

Deeec wrote: »

...in most cases the child will be top of the list for a place in the school the following year

I wish I believed this, but I just don't. Especially as the initial priority goes to the existing waiting lists so there's very few places left to be allocating

Deeec wrote: »

Also please don't contact the school to discuss this issue - you very well may find your child will not get a place ever in that school!!

That has crossed my mind! But I'd like think they wouldn't actually do that

Deeec

Electric Nitwit wrote: »

Again, I've said several times I have no issue with them picking 5yr olds over 4yr olds who can defer. My issue is over two five year olds being decided between by age

I think in the case of two five year children close in age other criteria will be looked at to decide - siblings, proximity to school. In the school my children attend having a parent who attended the school is also a big advantage.

Electric Nitwit

Deeec wrote: »

I think in the case of two five year children close in age other criteria will be looked at to decide - siblings, proximity to school. In the school my children attend having a parent who attended the school is also a big advantage.

I copied the full policy into the OP, they use siblings initially but absolutely don't use any other criteria afterwards (well, they certainly don't disclose it anyway)

Del2005

Electric Nitwit wrote: »

As I said, most other schools I've checked say it's a lottery (after siblings etc) which is undeniably fair. Personally I think locality should be used as a factor but I get how that's not practical everywhere. And again, I understand a 5yr old over a 4yr old who can defer a year

We obviously just disagree, but I don't get how you think the youngest getting the cut is sensible or fair. Born in November? First choice for you. Born in June? Ooh, sorry? Never mind that you're well documented to be at a disadvantage already, now you get shunted down the road too

So you are willing to accept selection on family status, which is one of the 9 discrimination groups, but not age, which is also one but doesn't apply to under 18s.

If you don't like age limits then family status should be a similar issue, why should a 4 year old with a sibling get in ahead of a 5 year old without?

Princess Calla

Electric Nitwit wrote: »

Again, I've said several times I have no issue with them picking 5yr olds over 4yr olds who can defer. My issue is over two five year olds being decided between by age


I wish I believed this, but I just don't. Especially as the initial priority goes to the existing waiting lists so there's very few places left to be allocating


That has crossed my mind! But I'd like think they wouldn't actually do that

Where in the guidelines does it mention 5 year olds?

4 is the youngest they will take , but 5 year olds will get priority over them.

If the whole class is made up of 5 year olds and over subscribed of course the youngest will not be accepted. It makes much more sense for the youngest to join the following years class. A January 5 year old will be 5 and 9 months starting school if they missed out on the place they'd be 6 and 9 months, nearly 7 starting school with the potential of being in a class with 4 year olds is crazy. At least the June child would be closer to 6 starting school.

Though if you don't like the school rules you don't have to send your child to that particular school.

Deeec

Electric Nitwit wrote: »

I copied the full policy into the OP, they use siblings initially but absolutely don't use any other criteria afterwards (well, they certainly don't disclose it anyway)

If you know any parents with children in the school maybe have a chat with them and see if they know what procedures there is. I think sometimes the 'criteria' for rejecting a child are not always transparent - sometimes age doesnt even come into it. Its very hard to prove the school is discriminating though.

Electric Nitwit

Princess Calla wrote: »

A January 5 year old will be 5 and 9 months starting school if they missed out on the place they'd be 6 and 9 months, nearly 7 starting school with the potential of being in a class with 4 year olds is crazy. At least the June child would be closer to 6 starting school

Legally, children must have started their formal education by the age of 6 years so deferment is not an option

Deeec

Electric Nitwit wrote: »

Legally, children must have started their formal education by the age of 6 years so deferment is not an option

Unfortunately you cant always get what you want. Your child is not gauranteed a place until it is offered. If a 5 year old isnt offered a place in the school then you have to find another school. Most people in high demand areas would apply to several different schools.

Electric Nitwit

Deeec wrote: »

Unfortunately you cant always get what you want. Your child is not gauranteed a place until it is offered. If a 5 year old isnt offered a place in the school then you have to find another school. Most people in high demand areas would apply to several different schools.

I absolutely get that, that was a reply to someone talking about them starting at 6+

I completely understand that popular schools are oversubscribed and there's no way to guarantee a place. But I still take issue with age being a decisive factor

byhookorbycrook

Electric Nitwit wrote: »

Legally, children must have started their formal education by the age of 6 years so deferment is not an option

Yes, they must be in "school" but that doesn't mean your first choice of school. Whatever way a school tries to cut off, if oversubscribed, is going to be unpopular with someone, but that's just the way it has to be.

Electric Nitwit

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Yes, they must be in "school" but that doesn't mean your first choice of school. Whatever way a school tries to cut off, if oversubscribed, is going to be unpopular with someone, but that's just the way it has to be.

Why would a lottery be unpopular?
(in advance, I don't mean unpopular with those who miss out)

Deeec

Electric Nitwit wrote: »

Why would a lottery be unpopular?
(in advance, I don't mean unpopular with those who miss out)

A lottery system could create situations where siblings have to attend different schools which would be difficult for parents or a child living next door to a school but has to travel 10 miles to another school because that was the luck of the draw! A lottery system would be crazy.

Electric Nitwit

Deeec wrote: »

A lottery system could create situations where siblings have to attend different schools which would be difficult for parents...

Applied after the sibling criteria

Deeec wrote: »

...or a child living next door to a school but has to travel 10 miles to another school because that was the luck of the draw!

What about a child living next door to a school but has to travel 10 miles to another school because they're born in the summer?

Deeec wrote: »

A lottery system would be crazy.

It's what most schools that I've looked at do. I've checked other Educate Together schools, including all the ones in Kildare, to see what was normal

JCDUB

Electric Nitwit wrote: »

But I still take issue with age being a decisive factor

Yeah, we get that. I believe you've mentioned it once or twice.
The enrolment policy is legal, and it is what it is.
Get over it, or else look for another school.

Working in the industry, I can safely say that you are the type of parent that some schools will try to avoid.
Your child isn't even attending the school and you're already about to kick up a fuss over your perception of a perfectly legitimate policy.

Doesn't bode well for future smooth teacher/principal parent relationships........

Mod Note: Attack the post if you must, but not the poster!

Electric Nitwit

JCDUB wrote: »

Yeah, we get that. I believe you've mentioned it once or twice.
The enrolment policy is legal, and it is what it is.
Get over it, or else look for another school.

Working in the industry, I can safely say that you are the type of parent that some schools will try to avoid.
Your child isn't even attending the school and you're already about to kick up a fuss over your perception of a perfectly legitimate policy.

Doesn't bode well for future smooth teacher/principal parent relationships........

Feel free to try to address the point rather than resort to ad hominem attacks. Or feel free to not comment

Deeec

In my experience a 5 year old child born in the summer is ideal and will not lose out based on age. You appear to really want your child to start school at age 4 - which means they will possibly not get a place at age 4. No child is discriminated against because they were born in the summer!

Electric Nitwit

Deeec wrote: »

In my experience a 5 year old child born in the summer is ideal and will not lose out based on age. You appear to really want your child to start school at age 4 - which means they will possibly not get a place at age 4. No child is discriminated against because they were born in the summer!

Oh no, crossed wires. I want my kid to start when she's 5. But I worry that she'll miss out due to being a "young 5" compared to other applicants

JCDUB

Electric Nitwit wrote: »

Feel free to try to address the point rather than resort to ad hominem attacks. Or feel free to not comment

I addressed the point when I said the policy is perfectly legal and legitimate.

Nowhere did I resort to any attacks.

Best of luck with your hunt for a school, I hope it goes well for you.

Deeec

Electric Nitwit wrote: »

Oh no, crossed wires. I want my kids to start when she's 5. But I worry that she'll miss out due to being a "young 5" compared to other applicants

You may be worrying over nothing. The school may not be as popular ( I dont mean that in a bad way) as you think. Its possible no kids get turned away. Ring the school (dont give your name though) for further clarification.

Also look at other schools in the area.

Electric Nitwit

Deeec wrote: »

You may be worrying over nothing. The school may not be as popular ( I dont mean that in a bad way) as you think. Its possible no kids get turned away. Ring the school (dont give your name though) for further clarification.

Also look at other schools in the area.

Thanks Deeec, I appreciate your replies.
I have spoken to the secretary earlier this year and know there's already 73 on the waiting list for two classes. I know not all will take a place but they'll almost certainly be well oversubscribed and there'll be very few places left for those who missed the waiting list (we're moving area so we did. We're on the waiting list for our local school in Dublin at the moment but cannot afford to stay here)

jrosen

Electric Nitwit wrote: »

Thanks Deeec, I appreciate your replies.
I have spoken to the secretary earlier this year and know there's already 73 on the waiting list for two classes. I know not all will take a place but they'll almost certainly be well oversubscribed and there'll be very few places left for those who missed the waiting list (we're moving area so we did. We're on the waiting list for our local school in Dublin at the moment but cannot afford to stay here)

Perhaps the school have enough to push for an additional teacher.

Out of the 73 on the wait list a huge portion could be 4. You could be worrying for nothing.
In your school being a sibling and of age is priority one, which is a good policy. It ensures siblings can attend the same school.

Deeec

Electric Nitwit wrote: »

Thanks Deeec, I appreciate your replies.
I have spoken to the secretary earlier this year and know there's already 73 on the waiting list for two classes. I know not all will take a place but they'll almost certainly be well oversubscribed and there'll be very few places left for those who missed the waiting list (we're moving area so we did. We're on the waiting list for our local school in Dublin at the moment but cannot afford to stay here)

I know it must be a worry for you when you are moving to a new area. 73 though isnt a huge number on the list - some of these will drop away. I know for my youngest I have him on the list for 2021 start and 2022 start. Hes a January baby so its a really bad birth date for school starts. I know I will be starting him in 2022 when he is 5 as I made the mistake of starting my eldest child when they were 4 but I also was allowed put him on the list for 2021 ( just in case I changed my mind). Have a scout around your new area for other schools. Even put a post up here asking about schools in your new area. Believe me it will work out in the end!

Princess Calla

Electric Nitwit wrote: »

Legally, children must have started their formal education by the age of 6 years so deferment is not an option

Yeah I wasnt even thinking about that tbh

Millem

OP what month is your child?
If your child has a January-June birthday then what’s the problem? If you avail of the two years for ECCE your child will be one of the oldest so prioritising age works in your favour?

It’s a supply and demand issue. A primary school close my work uses age too. For Sept 19/20 the cut off was the start of December. The December kids already had done two years of ECCE and some would of already had siblings in the school! Nightmare situation for the parents.

Electric Nitwit

Hi Millem,

have to admit, I hadn't thought of the impact of the ecce scheme. I'd assumed this policy basically excluded 4yr olds, meaning all applicants would likely be 5yrs old. At that point my June daughter would be amongst the youngest

I understand having a single cut off to split the year into two tranches (although your example of early Dec seems insane), but ranking the kids by age after that seems very unfair to me. Seems I'm in the minority though, which is what I wanted to find out when I asked the question

Millem

Electric Nitwit wrote: »

Hi Millem,

have to admit, I hadn't thought of the impact of the ecce scheme. I'd assumed this policy basically excluded 4yr olds, meaning all applicants would likely be 5yrs old. At that point my June daughter would be amongst the youngest

I understand having a single cut off to split the year into two tranches (although your example of early Dec seems insane), but ranking the kids by age after that seems very unfair to me. Seems I'm in the minority though, which is what I wanted to find out when I asked the question

The early December only came about due to demand. The year previous it was last week in January. They only have x places.

UID0

With Educate Together schools, when they were operating the old first come first served admissions policy a lot of parents put their children on the waiting list soon after birth, but put them on for the year in which they were 4. This then gave greater freedom to decide when the child was 4 if they were ready for school or not.
Maynooth seems to have been using that policy up until very recently and 73 on the waiting list is not bad. There will be some children who have moved away, some who will defer their entry for a year, some who will choose a different school (e.g. their parents may prefer the gaelscoil, but put their name down for the ET as they wanted a backup). I know of people who were in the high 80s on the waiting list for an ET school (not Maynooth) who got their place in the school because of people not taking the place their place on the list.
I would suggest that you don't contact the school to complain about this as there are no potential benefits to you in doing so, but there is the risk of you getting a reputation as a "troublemaker" with the school. Look at other schools so you have a backup option if your child doesn't get in, and if the Educate Together is really the only school you are comfortable with, put your child on the waiting list for if a place comes available after the school year has started. In my own child's class, there have been 1 or 2 who have left each year to go elsewhere.

I don't know exactly where you are living, but the Leixlip ETNS is currently enrolling, and is on the end of Leixlip closest to Maynooth, so may be of some use. Their enrolment system prioritises on catchment area, but you could be lucky.

I hope that both you and your child are happy with whatever school they end up in.


On the wider issue of your question, I think that the admission policy should have more categories (given the school's choice to prioritise siblings)
Aged 5 with siblings
Aged 5 without siblings
Aged 4 with siblings
Aged 4 without siblings

Otherwise, given the phrasing of Priority Category 1 it looks like a sibling of a current student who is 4 on 31st August would take priority over a 5 year old without a sibling.

Electric Nitwit

Thanks UID0, lots of useful stuff there

Hopefully you're right about plenty on the waiting list not taking their place (I know we'll be doing the same with Dublin schools that we registered with)

Sadly we're well outside Leixlip ET's catchment area but will apply anyway.

Thanks for the advice, I've no desire to be a troublemaker and understand the school has to have some sort of policy. That was the purpose of this thread really, to see if my views were generally agreed with and it seems they're not

shesty

Op, don't contact the schools. They need criteria to sort pupils.
Also look at it this way. 73 on a list, 2 classes. Say 30 in each class. So that is 13 kids who don't have a place. Of those 73 they will apply the first 2 priority categories first. Some of the kids on the list won't be in the area anymore. Some might have moved house and a different school will suit. Some will have their names on another school list and decide they would prefer to go there. Some will decide that they won't start school til next year. The list is endless. I am not saying you will definitely get a place, but causing a row over the enrolment policy before you are even at a point where your child has a place is not going to do yourself any favours.

Your best bet here is to put the child's name down in a couple of schools, and accept that they will all have their own criteria for sorting kids. There has to be some way to sort kids when schools are over-subscribed.

byhookorbycrook

Contacting a school is pointless, they can't change the rules or "bump" people up.
Shesty, the issue is that some schools are more popular than others and while there may be sufficient places in an area, there may not be in that particular school. The EWO will find you a place, but not in the school you want.