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What is the appeal of liberalism?

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    #62
    The_Brood
    Closed Accounts Posts: 838 ✭✭✭The_Brood


    Hellotonever wrote: »
    Oh jesus christ. You are horribly misinformed. Liberalism isnt in any way new nor is it about any of the things you listed.

    Please read the origins of liberalism, especially its origins in French enlightenment, revolution (reign of terror) and Napoleon's war across Europe.

    It started when lower and middle class people decided that monarchies with unrestrained power were detrimental to society. Liberty, Equality and Fraternity are the bedrock of liberalism, and if you believe in any of things congratulations youre 'liberal'.

    You conflated SJWs and corporate/political agendas as part of the liberal thought. But in truth read history. They dragged out monarchs and aristocrats out in the streets and mutilated them one by one, beheading most. Then followed Napoleon across Europe and Africa, killing millions because they wanted to destroy all of the monarchies that suppressed Liberty and Equality. In fact, Napoleon won in the long run as the systems collapse of all monarchies in Europe is due to Liberal political shift after WW1.

    Liberalism is not this soft thing about immigration or social justice. Liberals historically have been killing and mutilating those who stood in the way of freedom and equality.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_liberalism#:~:text=The%20rise%20of%20Napoleon%20as,of%20law%2C%20the%20Code%20Napoleon.

    SJWs are exactly the people who describe themselves as liberal. The Democrats describe themselves as liberal. If the word has been basterdised beyond recognition, you need a new word.


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    #63
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users Posts: 33,042 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    The_Brood wrote: »
    SJWs are exactly the people who describe themselves as liberal. The Democrats describe themselves as liberal. If the word has been basterdised beyond recognition, you need a new word.

    No, people just need to learn the difference.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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    #64
    silverharp
    Registered Users Posts: 17,840 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    The_Brood wrote: »
    SJWs are exactly the people who describe themselves as liberal. The Democrats describe themselves as liberal. If the word has been basterdised beyond recognition, you need a new word.

    One observation I'd have is that Republicans are better at distancing themselves from the far right than Democrats are are distancing themselves from the far Left. A Democrat could literally express a love of communism , or express the view that kids identifying as trans could be castrated and they wouldnt get much in the way of flack.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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    #65
    CharlesMartel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 95 ✭✭CharlesMartel


    seamus wrote: »
    Quite the opposite Mr. Martel.

    Being conservative means never having to make tough decisions. All decisions are already made for you by someone else and any harm done by that decision is merely collateral damage and is to be ignored.

    Liberalism by contrast involves taking all points of view - even ones you may not personally like - and making the decision that is as inclusive as possible.

    Conservatism is the choice of people who want an easy life and don't want to think too hard about anything.

    And that would be true in the past. Since liberalism has become the prevailing dogma, and quite an intolerant dogma at that, it is the conservative that make difficult choices/decisions and have to face the howling liberal mob, or worse, the decapitator in their church.
    There are no negative social or economic consequences of professing onceself a liberal in Western society today.


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    #66
    CharlesMartel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 95 ✭✭CharlesMartel


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    Yep.

    Liberalism isn't a creed. It's a way of thinking based on rational thought, concern for individual rights and pragmatism. Different liberals using this way of thinking can arrive at opposing positions in a debate.

    For instance, one liberal might support a woman's right to choose based on her right to bodily autonomy whereas another might oppose the right to choose based on the right to life of the newborn.

    But modern liberalism as taken on the qualities of faith based dogma. Go against the tenants of modern liberalism and you have to be ostracised and force out. for example George Hook

    I am a classical liberal. I base my life on enlightment principles. But modern liberals will scream and shout and demand acceptance of stuff that has no empirical basis, but on feelings. For example saying that child should not undergo gender reassigment is treated by modern liberals as true evil and worse than nazism. its nuts.


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    #67
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,252 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    CharlesMartel wrote: »
    But modern liberalism as taken on the qualities of faith based dogma. Go against the tenants of modern liberalism and you have to be ostracised and force out. for example George Hook

    By the same logic, I can equate neo-Nazis and Conservatives. On that basis, I can disregard everything they say.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #68
    CharlesMartel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 95 ✭✭CharlesMartel


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    By the same logic, I can equate neo-Nazis and Conservatives. On that basis, I can disregard everything they say.

    Exactly, modern liberals are not open to logical discussion to create a better situation. there is no compromise with alternative views..just like the authoritarian faiths they claim to hate. I get the impression if the Catholic Church still was in charge here, a lot of the professed Liberals, would have been the informers and enforcers of Catholic Ireland. Ie they love the dogma and certainty of a fixed position than open debate


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    #69
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users Posts: 33,042 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    CharlesMartel wrote: »
    But modern liberalism as taken on the qualities of faith based dogma. Go against the tenants of modern liberalism and you have to be ostracised and force out. for example George Hook

    I am a classical liberal. I base my life on enlightment principles. But modern liberals will scream and shout and demand acceptance of stuff that has no empirical basis, but on feelings. For example saying that child should not undergo gender reassigment is treated by modern liberals as true evil and worse than nazism. its nuts.

    And yet so enlightened think that all liberals "scream and shout and demand acceptance of stuff that has no empirical basis".

    Not sure what you think you're discribing here, but it's me liberal.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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    #70
    CharlesMartel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 95 ✭✭CharlesMartel


    Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »
    And yet so enlightened think that all liberals "scream and shout and demand acceptance of stuff that has no empirical basis".

    Not sure what you think you're discribing here, but it's me liberal.

    i did not say all liberals. just the prevailing mood


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    #71
    ShatterAlan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,807 ✭✭✭ShatterAlan


    Aubrie Thousands Suspicion wrote: »
    This might rattle the cage a bit, but hear me out.

    I could never really understand the appeal of having a liberal outlook on life. The US election got me thinking about this again. To give a bit of background, I grew up in a conservative household. Both sets of grandparents could only be described as conservative. And I get it. I have thought through their positions and they just make sense. I suppose classical conservatism, as I understand it, is that some values never change. These values are paramount to society.

    You work hard to get a good job to support your family. You love your country, even if it means you have to sacrifice your life for it. You love and honour God as your creator and (hopefully) your final destination.

    Strong families are the bedrock of society. The welfare state promotes laziness and wasted lives. Social justice means equality of opportunity not equality of outcome. (This list is in no way exhaustive).

    On the other hand, my view of liberalism is that we just do whatever we want; we redefine social values (many of which have been established for 1000s of years, going back to Ancient Greece) and create totally new ones.

    Then I see the so-called 'liberal darlings': spending lots and lots of money, unrestrained immigration (especially from non-European countries), ecology and an emphasis on elevating various minorities onto a pedestal. Sometimes these 'darlings' seem to conflict with one another - this was shown when #Muslims are right about women was trending on Twitter.

    And liberalism's greatest achievements, gay marriage and abortion, frankly disturb me. Especially abortion. I mean, when we get to the very bottom of it, past all the jargon, past 'fetus' this and 'termination' that, what are we really left with?

    That is my take on the issue. I share it to start a discussion. Maybe someone could enlighten me as to what is the appeal of liberalism?


    Liberalism is the concept of allowing people to live their lives the way they want to.


    Conservatism is telling them how to live their lives.


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    #72
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,252 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    CharlesMartel wrote: »
    Exactly, modern liberals are not open to logical discussion to create a better situation. there is no compromise with alternative views..just like the authoritarian faiths they claim to hate. I get the impression if the Catholic Church still was in charge here, a lot of the professed Liberals, would have been the informers and enforcers of Catholic Ireland. Ie they love the dogma and certainty of a fixed position than open debate

    What evidence do you have for this?

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #73
    CharlesMartel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 95 ✭✭CharlesMartel


    ShatterAlan wrote: »
    Liberalism is the concept of allowing people to live their lives the way they want to.


    Conservatism is telling them how to live their lives.
    I disagree. Conservative are usually cool how you live your life, they just don't want to pay for it


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    #74
    CharlesMartel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 95 ✭✭CharlesMartel


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    What evidence do you have for this?

    Anecdotal


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    #75
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users Posts: 33,042 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    CharlesMartel wrote: »
    i did not say all liberals. just the prevailing mood

    You did. More than once.
    CharlesMartel wrote: »
    But modern liberalism as taken on the qualities of faith based dogma. Go against the tenants of modern liberalism and you have to be ostracised and force out. for example George Hook

    I am a classical liberal. I base my life on enlightment principles. But modern liberals will scream and shout and demand acceptance of stuff that has no empirical basis, but on feelings. For example saying that child should not undergo gender reassigment is treated by modern liberals as true evil and worse than nazism. its nuts.
    CharlesMartel wrote: »
    Being a liberal in the modern world means never having to make a tough decision, shouting down dissenting views and supporting people that if given the chance would murder you and take all that you own. Liberals will destroy their own societies rather than question their own worldview

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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    #76
    CharlesMartel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 95 ✭✭CharlesMartel


    Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »
    You did. More than once.

    just wow. I could say manchester united footballers are good soccer players, and you would take the meaning that i said all manchester united footballers. How many angels can dance on the head of a pin again?


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    #77
    CharlesMartel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 95 ✭✭CharlesMartel


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Like, in fairness, anyone who argued against letting the gays get married or abortion was feckin eaten..

    To be honest giving gay couples the same civil rights as straight couples was long overdue, particular protection of inheritance rights and succession. I don;t see how anybody could vote against it.


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    #78
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users Posts: 33,042 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    CharlesMartel wrote: »
    just wow. I could say manchester united footballers are good soccer players, and you would take the meaning that i said all manchester united footballers. How many angels can dance on the head of a pin again?

    You got caught out and this is your best excuse...?

    If you mean a certain amount, express said amount. Stop being vague.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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    #79
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,252 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    CharlesMartel wrote: »
    Anecdotal

    So nonsense then. Grand.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #80
    CharlesMartel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 95 ✭✭CharlesMartel


    Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »
    You got caught out and this is your best excuse...?

    I didn't intend to call all liberals as a monolith. I am sorry you took me up wrong. I am referring to trends. of course there are exceptions. just like not all conservatives. We are not clones


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    #81
    CharlesMartel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 95 ✭✭CharlesMartel


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    So nonsense then. Grand.

    And when one is doing empirical research, and the findings are not going to be popular or contradict one of the tenants of faith, one is likely to just forget it. Same under authoritarian conservative systems of the past, same under modern liberalism. Just look at the great reluctance of anybody to question EU migration policy, asylum, etc, for fear of backlash, of course leaving the field open for the far right to move in.. ie moderates afraid to weigh in so field surrendered to the extremists(of both left and right)


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    #82
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,252 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    CharlesMartel wrote: »
    And when one is doing empirical research, and the findings are not going to be popular or contradict one of the tenants of faith, one is likely to just forget it. Same under authoritarian conservative systems of the past, same under modern liberalism. Just look at the great reluctance of anybody to question EU migration policy, asylum, etc, for fear of backlash, of course leaving the field open for the far right to move in.. ie moderates afraid to weigh in so field surrendered to the extremists(of both left and right)

    Conservatives aren't victims and no amount of unsubstantiated guff is going to prove otherwise.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #83
    CharlesMartel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 95 ✭✭CharlesMartel


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    Conservatives aren't victims and no amount of unsubstantiated guff is going to prove otherwise.

    I did not claim victimhood. I just gave my observation of how things seem to play out. you are putting words in my mouth and then running with that strawman


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    #84
    olestoepoke
    Registered Users Posts: 2,386 ✭✭✭olestoepoke


    I think a great many people are somewhere in the middle. It's the extremists that really bother me either way, the looney far left out of control PC brigade or the crazy far right racists. I think they are both as bad as each other.


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    #85
    Akesh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 315 ✭✭Akesh


    A lot of people who would describe themselves as 'liberal' are also people who want to deplatform others because they don't agree with their views/choices. I'm not a fan of trying to box people into different outlooks or classes based on a portion of their beliefs anyway.

    The word liberal is about as meaningless as fascist or racist because the majority of people using those terms don't actually know what they mean. Many people who think they are liberal aren't liberal in the slightest.


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    #86
    CharlesMartel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 95 ✭✭CharlesMartel


    olestoepoke wrote: »
    I think a great many people are somewhere in the middle. It's the extremists that really bother me either way, the looney far left out of control PC brigade or the crazy far right racists. I think they are both as bad as each other.
    but unfortunately the extremes are the motivated ones and frequently set the agenda


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    #87
    CountNjord
    Closed Accounts Posts: 108 ✭✭CountNjord


    Liberals are ok to meet at a party,art gallery or for a general chit chat.

    But for the love of mother earth don't talk, education politics, religion or current affairs or sociology with them, because that's the trigger...

    Talk about dog's,cats, plants, poetry, music ,art and you'll get along ok with them.

    I found out the hard way, they seem to get their hackles up over certain subjects, so just keep it simple and civil :)


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    #88
    Harry Palmr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 40,061 ✭✭✭✭Harry Palmr


    If nothing else is clear this is - it's time to stop reducing solid long standing terms to their jumped up bastardised American meanings and values.

    I say that as a social liberal.


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    #89
    CharlesMartel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 95 ✭✭CharlesMartel


    Liberalism's most appealing trait, in my opinion,is freedom of expression, and the ability and sit down and discuss rationally any issue, even with an opponent or enemy, have a meaningful dialogue and both leaving, if not with agreement or comprise, at least a new point of view and data set to ponder. Modern liberalism(not all liberals, probably just the vocal minority) does not seem interested in open dialogue and won't even consider changing its positions after open dialogue, because open dialogue is discouraged and frequently shouted down. eg: Christopher Hitchens, a classic liberal, shouted down as islamophobic and prevented from speaking at those bastions of modern liberalism, universities


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    #90
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users Posts: 33,042 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    CharlesMartel wrote: »
    but unfortunately the extremes are the motivated ones and frequently set the agenda

    To be honest, if someone doesn't know what the term liberal means and can't avoid equating it with the social justice warrior/extremeist element, it's a case of ignorance on the part of that person.

    Believeing someone ust because they should the loudest is simply downright laziness. And the solution to the problem is nto to shout louder.

    We all know the difference between a fascist and a conservative regardless of wheer we get the info, and should be the same on both sides of the political spectrum.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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    #91
    CharlesMartel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 95 ✭✭CharlesMartel


    Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »
    To be honest, if someone doesn't know what the term liberal means and can't avoid equating it with the social justice warrior/extremeist element, it's a case of ignorance on the part of that person.

    Believeing someone ust because they should the loudest is simply downright laziness. And the solution to the problem is nto to shout louder.

    We all know the difference between a fascist and a conservative regardless of wheer we get the info, and should be the same on both sides of the political spectrum.
    And what can one say to somebody that the SJW/extreme element have hijacked modern liberalism, and bastarsized it beyond all recognition. And to be honest if the extremes are taking over it is time for the reasonable majority of all hues, to start shouting and drowning them out,


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