US Presidential Election 2020 Thread II - Judgement Day(s)

Big Pussy Bonpensiero · 05-11-2020 03:37PM

Call Me Jimmy wrote: »

"Ballots can be counted if they lack a postmark, a legible postmark or some other proof of mailing unless a “preponderance of the evidence” shows it was mailed after Election Day, the court said." Maybe I misunderstand it but that is different to what you're saying I think.
https://apnews.com/article/election-2020-pennsylvania-elections-courts-41b7c3a620dd3ba1b9c741fb80ff8466

Why is this an issue for you, and Republicans, only now? Mail in ballots is one of the safest ways to vote, has proven to be over and over again, and has been done for decades by those in the military.

You might think you're presenting a valid point, but you're not. That lawsuit was an embarrassment to the Republican party, and it won't be forgotton what they have tried to do here.

Jimbob1977 · 05-11-2020 03:38PM

Call me old fashioned, but I think every election should require a voter to turn up at a polling station on election day.

No pre-voting weeks before Election Day or postal votes (where postmarks are being debated!!).

The only exception should be postal votes for the verifiably infirmed or hospitalised.

The American system is ripe for fraud.

Quin_Dub · 05-11-2020 03:39PM

everlast75 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/ABC/status/1324341206306967552?s=19

Interesting to hear this. Allays my fears somewhat

Threshold is only 0.1% so has to be absolutely razor thin either way for a recount.

Other States are 0.5% or 1% threshold

Akabusi · 05-11-2020 03:39PM

moon2 wrote: »

If you post something a week before election day and the postal service *does not* deliver it by election day, that vote should absolutely be counted.

I appreciate there needs to be a limit on how long you can wait for votes to arrive, but 'a couple of days' is definitely a very reasonable thing to promote democracy and ensure no-one is disenfrancised by virtue of their local post office being underfunded/underperforming.

The best example is that the USPS in Florida may have failed to deliver 300,000 votes. https://www.tampabay.com/news/florida-politics/elections/2020/11/03/usps-ordered-to-search-for-mail-ballots-on-election-day/ It's shocking that a failure of the USPS, potentially caused by interference by the current government, is going to disenfranchise so many votes. It's especially troubling when this is more than sufficient to swing the election.

But didn't Trump win Florida by more than 300K. Even if everyone of them are Biden votes it won't change things there.

Call Me Jimmy · 05-11-2020 03:39PM

Big Pussy Bonpensiero wrote: »

Why is this an issue for you, and Republicans, only now? Mail in ballots is one of the safest ways to vote, has proven to be over and over again, and has been done for decades by those in the military.

You might think you're presenting a valid point, but you're not. That lawsuit was an embarrassment to the Republican party, and it won't be forgotton what they have tried to do here.

So we can't talk about any of the legal things democrats are doing? Can't question it? I haven't heard a good reason why ballots lacking any verification that they were posted before the election being counted after the election is a good thing.

Quin_Dub · 05-11-2020 03:40PM

Jimbob1977 wrote: »

Call me old fashioned, but I think every election should require a voter to turn up at a polling station on election day.

No pre-voting weeks before Election Day or postal votes (where postmarks are being debated!!).

The only exception should be postal votes for the verifiably infirmed or hospitalised.

The American system is ripe for fraud.

And yet , the instance of fraud is miniscule almost beyond measure.

It just doesn't happen at any kind of scale.

paul71 · 05-11-2020 03:41PM

Call Me Jimmy wrote: »

See my post above yours about the ruling.

If the USPS has done anything illegitimate or there is any sign of ****ery on their part then let's see the evidence. I'm not doubting it, but I'm sure the democratic operatives / lawyers will be bringing it to the attention of the people and the courts if that's the case.

The court is already involved, there is a chance that the recently appointed head of the USPS could be found in contempt of a federal court order to sweep processing plants on Tuesday, the punishment contempt of court can be imprisonment.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/11/03/election-ballot-delays-usps/

Big Pussy Bonpensiero · 05-11-2020 03:41PM

Call Me Jimmy wrote: »

So we can't talk about any of the legal things democrats are doing? Can't question it? I haven't heard a good reason why ballots lacking any verification that they were posted before the election being counted after the election is a good thing.

Show us proof of fraud.
Then you have a point.
This has been done for decades.
It's tried and trusted. Nothing more really to say on the matter.

Akabusi · 05-11-2020 03:41PM

Jimbob1977 wrote: »

Call me old fashioned, but I think every election should require a voter to turn up at a polling station on election day.

No pre-voting weeks before Election Day or postal votes (where postmarks are being debated!!).

The only exception should be postal votes for the verifiably infirmed or hospitalised.

The American system is ripe for fraud.

Hello Old Fashioned!

Nody · 05-11-2020 03:42PM

Jimbob1977 wrote: »

Call me old fashioned, but I think every election should require a voter to turn up at a polling station on election day.

No pre-voting weeks before Election Day or postal votes (where postmarks are being debated!!).

The only exception should be postal votes for the verifiably infirmed or hospitalised.

The American system is ripe for fraud.

So ripe that the last study concluded for 2016 found a whopping total of 0.0005% fraudulent votes; that's 1440 votes total based on 160 million people voting. Yup, that sure will swing the president election... Now compare that to Republicans actively closing down places to vote to ensure people can not exercise their legal right to vote by comparison I'd say mail in voting should rather be the main option by comparison because it reduces the possibility of political dicking around.

Christy42 · 05-11-2020 03:43PM

Call Me Jimmy wrote: »

So we can't talk about any of the legal things democrats are doing? Can't question it? I haven't heard a good reason why ballots lacking any verification it was posted before the election can be counted after the election is a good thing.

Why would it not have verification one way or another would be my first question. What is the verification system?

I think innocent till proven guilty applies for me (not the actual legal bit, just the principle). If you got some mail now as last years Christmas present then you would be skeptical it was sent before last Christmas. Given the post office's recent failures and stresses you have uncertainty about the ballots. If that person has not voted another way I would hedge on counting it. Having someone vote slightly late is regrettable but preferable to to disenfranchising someone who voted on time and got unlucky

dogbert27 · 05-11-2020 03:44PM

Jimbob1977 wrote: »

Call me old fashioned, but I think every election should require a voter to turn up at a polling station on election day.

No pre-voting weeks before Election Day or postal votes (where postmarks are being debated!!).

The only exception should be postal votes for the verifiably infirmed or hospitalised.

The American system is ripe for fraud.

There is also a pandemic that is hitting America one of the hardest so people are safely using their democratic right to cast their vote and be vigilant of their health.

Call Me Jimmy · 05-11-2020 03:45PM

Big Pussy Bonpensiero wrote: »

Show us proof of fraud.
Then you have a point.
This has been done for decades.
It's tried and trusted. Nothing more really to say on the matter.

No the ruling I'm talking about is in the last few weeks and I believe only in PA.

Big Pussy Bonpensiero · 05-11-2020 03:46PM

Call Me Jimmy wrote: »

No the ruling I'm talking about is in the last few weeks and I believe only in PA.

Okay, but the action was taken by the Republican Party. It's up to them to provide proof that it's not safe, it's not up to the court or the people to prove otherwise. They made the claim, let them back it up. It really is that simple.

Call Me Jimmy · 05-11-2020 03:47PM

Christy42 wrote: »

Why would it not have verification one way or another would be my first question. What is the verification system?

I think innocent till proven guilty applies for me (not the actual legal bit, just the principle). If you got some mail now as last years Christmas present then you would be skeptical it was sent before last Christmas. Given the post office's recent failures and stresses you have uncertainty about the ballots. If that person has not voted another way I would hedge on counting it. Having someone vote slightly late is regrettable but preferable to to disenfranchising someone who voted on time and got unlucky

I completely agree innocent until proven guilty, I just couldn't say to myself that I would want that as a standard all politics aside. And I was struck by the fact that nobody seemed to have a real reason for making it that lax.

0gac3yjefb5sv7 · 05-11-2020 03:52PM

Seems like we haven't got many results today. Is there any large batches due or final counts to close in the remaining States soon?

Mr.Nice Guy · 05-11-2020 03:53PM

Looking increasingly good for Biden in PA:

https://twitter.com/Redistrict/status/1324357456575778825

https://twitter.com/Redistrict/status/1324360362586755074

Brussels Sprout · 05-11-2020 03:56PM

Jimbob1977 wrote: »

Call me old fashioned, but I think every election should require a voter to turn up at a polling station on election day.

No pre-voting weeks before Election Day or postal votes (where postmarks are being debated!!).

The only exception should be postal votes for the verifiably infirmed or hospitalised.

The American system is ripe for fraud.

Packing people into polling stations on 1 single day in the middle of a pandemic would have been beyond reckless....even by American standards.
It would probably would have disenfranchised the majority of healthy but worried people over 65 - which likely would have hurt Republicans (despite what the polls were thinking - seniors appear to have broken for Trump again).

Trump's arguments against mail-in voting changed depending on whether he thought that they would be for or are against him - showing that his argument against them was morally bankrupt.

Shelga · 05-11-2020 03:57PM

Any chance of hundreds of thousands of incoming military votes swinging things either way? How do they figure in the electoral college?

Hopefully they didn't take too well to being called losers by Trump.

Quin_Dub · 05-11-2020 03:59PM

Call Me Jimmy wrote: »

I completely agree innocent until proven guilty, I just couldn't say to myself that I would want that as a standard all politics aside. And I was struck by the fact that nobody seemed to have a real reason for making it that lax.

I think the main point is that despite decades of claiming voter fraud , the GOP have yet to be able to provide any evidence to support those claims.

Each time a change is made to facilitate easier access to voting , the GOP shout "Fraud!!!" without evidence.

And then when analysis is done and the instance of voter fraud is shown to be infinitesimally small , they simply ignore that and start talking about "Open to fraud" and still don't explain how.

There will always be *some* fraud , in ones and twos here and there , but the actual chances of fraud at the scale required to actually influence a result in an election where hundreds of thousands or millions of votes are cast is just incalculably small.

The GOP know that , but they still shout about it to sow division and confusion.

Quin_Dub · 05-11-2020 04:00PM

Shelga wrote: »

Any chance of hundreds of thousands of incoming military votes swinging things either way? How do they figure in the electoral college?

Hopefully they didn't take too well to being called losers by Trump.

Probably not as they'd be spread out across the entire country so there's unlikely to be a massive chunk dropping into a single State.

circadian · 05-11-2020 04:00PM

paul71 wrote: »

The court is already involved, there is a chance that the recently appointed head of the USPS could be found in contempt of a federal court order to sweep processing plants on Tuesday, the punishment contempt of court can be imprisonment.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/11/03/election-ballot-delays-usps/

He could be in serious trouble if found to be interfering with this, especially ignoring a court order. Bot tampering with the mail service and voting are serious federal crimes.

Remains to be seen though.

jasonb · 05-11-2020 04:01PM

Looks like Trump's lead in PA is now just under 136,000

Brian? · 05-11-2020 04:01PM

Shelga wrote: »

Any chance of hundreds of thousands of incoming military votes swinging things either way? How do they figure in the electoral college?

Hopefully they didn't take too well to being called losers by Trump.

There aren't that many and they're spread over all 50 states .

Exclamation Marc · 05-11-2020 04:04PM

https://twitter.com/conorsen/status/1324366339432218629?s=20

moon2 · 05-11-2020 04:07PM

Call Me Jimmy wrote: »

See my post above yours about the ruling.

If the USPS has done anything illegitimate or there is any sign of ****ery on their part then let's see the evidence. I'm not doubting it, but I'm sure the democratic operatives / lawyers will be bringing it to the attention of the people and the courts if that's the case.

I don't care whether this is ****ery, incompetence or just bad luck. The point remains that if people send ballots long before the deadline, and through some quirk of fate they are not delivered by election day, there should be a window under which they are still eligible for being counted.

"Arrive within N days of election and be postmarked on or before election day" is quite a fair rule. Extending this to also include "Does not have a legible post mark but is part of a batch of post where the majority of mail is post marked on or before election day" is also fair and reasonable.

tl;dr A democratic and fair election should be flexible enough to account for expected issues, but strict enough to protect against fraud.

EDIT:

I haven't heard a good reason why ballots lacking any verification that they were posted before the election being counted after the election is a good thing.

If USPS can't deliver letters on time, why should you be dependent on them actually postmarking letters on time too? If they're failing at one they're highly likely to fail at the other.

Bear in mind, ballots do not *lack any verification*. They'll be part of bundles of mail and those bundles should be dateable even if some individual items lack a postmark. Either way, handing USPS the responsibility to validate legal votes is definitely not democratic.

murpho999 · 05-11-2020 04:08PM

Jimbob1977 wrote: »

Call me old fashioned, but I think every election should require a voter to turn up at a polling station on election day.

No pre-voting weeks before Election Day or postal votes (where postmarks are being debated!!).

The only exception should be postal votes for the verifiably infirmed or hospitalised.

The American system is ripe for fraud.

The measures were brought in because of Covid and makes sense.

Postal votes must be verified and batches signed off.
You can't just bring 100,000 postal votes to a centre and dump them as being claimed.

No evidence whatsoever of fraud. Also why is the fraud only benefitting Democrats and not republicans.

It's only being brought up by losing Republicans, and should simply be ignored.

People turning up to vote is also subject to fraud too by the way.

Hurrache · 05-11-2020 04:08PM

Jimbob1977 wrote: »

Call me old fashioned, but I think every election should require a voter to turn up at a polling station on election day.

No pre-voting weeks before Election Day or postal votes (where postmarks are being debated!!).

The only exception should be postal votes for the verifiably infirmed or hospitalised.

The American system is ripe for fraud.

And yet fraud is not an issue.

bennyl10 · 05-11-2020 04:09PM

61k to be counted in Georgia as of 5 minutes ago

Keano · 05-11-2020 04:12PM

I like the drama but I do want to Biden to be called soon. My nerves!

US Presidential Election 2020 Thread II - Judgement Day(s)

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