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Last Jedi was Lucas idea, Johnson owed apology?

  • 19-10-2020 10:44pm
    #1
    Wedwood
    Registered Users Posts: 626 ✭✭✭


    Some interesting updates on George Lucas’ original ideas for his plans for Episode 8, turns out Rian Johnson was following the original plan after all.

    The new book ‘Star Wars Facinating Facts’, which is an official release, outlines that it was always planned (by Lucas himself no less), that Luke Skywalker was to be a depressed recluse who had given up hope following his failure to restore the Jedi and would also be killed off in this episode.

    It would fall to the new female protagonist (Rey) to convince Luke to restore his faith in the Jedi.

    After all the howling over the last few years by certain fans (Including Hamill himself) that Johnson has ‘ruined’ Luke, it turns out this was Lucas plan all along.

    Guess a lot of those people who berated Johnson owe him a bit of an apology. (Ok, the casino planet stuff is still bad, but the really contentious issue was about the treatment of Luke)


Comments

  • #2
    johnny_ultimate
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 29,080 CMod ✭✭✭✭johnny_ultimate


    I’m sure this conversation will be highly measured, just like every internet conversation about this film :pac:

    Also, the casino planet stuff is the beating heart of The Last Jedi and is also great :)


  • #3
    Homelander
    Registered Users Posts: 4,339 ✭✭✭Homelander


    As with most films, the problem isn't the fact, it's how they arrived at it.

    Luke being a recluse is fine. How it was handled, I wasn't entirely happy with.

    I am sure most rational fans are the same.


  • #4
    mikhail
    Registered Users Posts: 3,863 ✭✭✭mikhail


    I'm not sure something being Lucas' idea is a defence for anything.

    I will apologise to Johnson for one thing: until I saw Knives Out, I was very close to dismissing him as someone whose movies were no longer interesting to me.
    johnny_ultimate wrote: »
    Also, the casino planet stuff is the beating heart of The Last Jedi and is also great :)
    Pistols at dawn?


  • #5
    Goodshape
    Registered Users Posts: 8,488 ✭✭✭Goodshape


    The Force Awakens was the only one of those sequels I really enjoyed in the cinema, but Last Jedi has definitely been the best on repeat viewings.

    Not a great fit in the trilogy but a really decent film otherwise, imo.


  • #6
    Varik
    Registered Users Posts: 12,480 ✭✭✭✭Varik


    Lucas made Darth Vader a whiny bitch in the prequels, and Johnson made a choice to follow whatever outline lucas had made.


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  • #7
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,557 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    I really enjoyed the Luke/Rey bits.

    Any issue I have is with the interminable space chase and side-mission.

    And how the trilogy fits together overall (i.e. terribly).


  • #8
    Relikk
    Registered Users Posts: 1,800 ✭✭✭Relikk


    Homelander wrote: »
    As with most films, the problem isn't the fact, it's how they arrived at it.

    Luke being a recluse is fine. How it was handled, I wasn't entirely happy with.

    Exactly. Johnson's "take" on it was utter rubbish and not remotely believable. When even Mark Hammill has a problem with it, you know it's not going to be right.


  • #9
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,489 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    Nearly everyone who ever touched a Star Wars Ep 7 script understood that Luke being a recluse was the only direction for his character that made any sense.

    Everyone attributes the ultimate choice for this to Rian Johnson, which is just absolute nuts to me — Luke was a recluse throughout the ENTIRETY of Force Awakens. It was a Kasdan/Abrams/Arndt decision.

    If you dislike how Johnson handled that, fine whatever, but at least admit to yourself where that story beat originated.


  • #10
    pixelburp
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 35,941 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    An astoundingly well trodden subject, but all I'll say is that I'll have more time for a movie that shoots big and fails, like Last Jedi did in places (ye gods the comedy), than something committee manufactured without an ounce of creativity like Last Skywalker.


  • #11
    B.A._Baracus
    Registered Users Posts: 11,170 ✭✭✭✭B.A._Baracus


    Didn't Mark Hamil say shortly after the release of Last Jedi that George Lucas' plan was to kill off luke at the end of ep9?


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  • #12
    Turtyturd
    Registered Users Posts: 28,392 ✭✭✭✭Turtyturd


    Relikk wrote: »
    Exactly. Johnson's "take" on it was utter rubbish and not remotely believable. When even Mark Hammill has a problem with it, you know it's not going to be right.

    This here was a major part of the problem. Hamill felt he was Luke Skywalker but he was an actor who played a character. He didn’t own the character and shouldn’t have any say in how it developed or where the story went. But he felt the opposite and before the film was even released he was crying on social media and in interviews so much that Disney had to put the foot down and he crawled back into his box.

    I do think that whinging from Hamill went a long way to fans complaining about the last Jedi.


  • #13
    Homelander
    Registered Users Posts: 4,339 ✭✭✭Homelander


    That's kinda insulting to fans. "You only felt that way because he felt that way".

    I like Mark Hamill. He seems a nice guy. I love Star Wars. But the only person who dictates my opinion on Star Wars, is me.

    And I say that as someone who actually did like The Last Jedi overall.


  • #14
    Wedwood
    Registered Users Posts: 626 ✭✭✭Wedwood


    Just to add some petrol to the discussion. The Force Awakens and Rise of Skywalker are both Popcorn movies, whereas The Last Jedi is closer to an art house character study of Luke and Leia, who are placed in a situation where they’ve lost everything.

    If you took out the ill fitting ‘humour scenes’ and Johnson had played it dead straight, you’d have a far superior movie. I’d imagine his problem was he had to put all the other pieces in to hit whatever demographics Disney wanted to reach ie toy sales, kids ticket sales etc.


  • #15
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Turtyturd wrote: »
    ....
    I do think that whinging from Hamill went a long way to fans complaining about the last Jedi...

    ..or maybe it was the movie...


  • #16
    Homelander
    Registered Users Posts: 4,339 ✭✭✭Homelander


    That's exactly what really annoyed me about TLJ. It has the bones of a movie that could rival the original and ESB. It easily has, by far, the best set pieces of the entire sequel trilogy.

    Throne room fight, hyperspace jump, that conversation about the murky distinction of good/bad, etc. All of which was shat upon by Rise of Skywalker.

    And I do believe that given just how incredibly strong the good parts are - and how good Johnson generally is - the baffling moments are possibly a result of outside insistence.

    Hard to know. Force Awakens did a way better job of sticking with the established tone and knowing how to toe the line (example, BB8 giving the "thumbs up") even though it's not as good, albeit more consistent.


  • #17
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Wedwood wrote: »
    ....After all the howling over the last few years by certain fans (Including Hamill himself) that Johnson has ‘ruined’ Luke, it turns out this was Lucas plan all along....

    I think the original trilogy was a success despite Lucas best efforts in some area's.


  • #18
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,489 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    Hamill’s comments often get misunderstood or warped by disingenuous people — he basically said that he had trouble seeing the Luke of TLJ fitting into the original trilogy. But that he stuck with Rian Johnson because he really wanted to make it work.

    Essentially — it’s not the story for Luke that Mark Hamill would have written himself, but it’s still a valid direction to take the character.

    Also, TLJ is easily the best performance Hamill has ever given, like by a country mile.


  • #19
    mikhail
    Registered Users Posts: 3,863 ✭✭✭mikhail


    MJohnston wrote: »
    Also, TLJ is easily the best performance Hamill has ever given, like by a country mile.
    Live action, maybe. :p


  • #20
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,489 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    No, I'd definitely include his many voice roles in that — I love his work, but it's a different mode of acting, and I just think he was seriously good in TLJ. And I think The Rise of Skywalker (where he's...not great) is a testament to how Rian Johnson was able to direct him very well.


  • #21
    UI_Paddy
    Registered Users Posts: 141 ✭✭UI_Paddy


    Varik wrote: »
    Lucas made Darth Vader a whiny bitch in the prequels, and Johnson made a choice to follow whatever outline lucas had made.

    That's the thing, now that we're hearing all this stuff about George Lucas' ideas for the sequel trilogy fans who didn't like what Disney did are pedestalising him again because it's easy to romanticize what never was. However I have no doubt if Lucas stayed on for the sequel trilogy or Disney used all his treatments we'd be hearing the same complaints.

    The prequels at their time were hugely divisive, and like Last Jedi received their share of complaints for mischaracterisation and not feeling like Star Wars. Now prequel defenders are quite common. I wouldn't be surprised if in 10 years time the sequel trilogy is being defended and the new trilogy will be, for some, the worst thing that ever happened to Star Wars.

    For the record, Last Jedi was awesome, as was Luke's character arc in it.


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  • #22
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    I find kids and modern audiences prefer the look of the later movies as they can't see past how old, old movies look.

    Another thing kids said to me was. You feel watching the original trilogy that is part of some bigger story. So you get invested in both the world and the characters. However the latter movies are such gibberish that it actually revises your opinion of the original trilogy that is actually the same gibberish. So while you can enjoy the latter movies for what they are. The entire franchise is devalued. You are no longer as invested in the characters or the story.

    It's like a movie that the first half is great but then the ending is dire and they kill of the most interesting characters halfway through.

    I watched the last Jedi the other night. It's ok. But in my head I know the various story arcs go nowhere. They don't resolve to any sort of meaningful conclusion other than to kill off everything that I actually liked about Star wars.


  • #23
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Rogue is one of favourite movies. I also like Solo. To be honest I also like awakens. So I don't think it's just some irrational dislike of new stuff.


  • #24
    Tony EH
    Registered Users Posts: 18,895 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    So there's some vague overlap in what Lucas had in mind and what Johnson wrote. Big deal.

    The sequels are still shite and nothing is going to change that...ever. They were poorly written dreck and that translated onto the screen.

    That being said, now that they're finished (thank god), it's easy to see that 'The Last Jedi' is the clear winner out of the three. But, given that the other two weren't that good, it isn't saying much.

    Anyway, 'The Mandalorian' is back at the end of the month.


  • #25
    WhenPigsCry
    Closed Accounts Posts: 119 ✭✭WhenPigsCry


    Luke was one of the best things about The Last Jedi.

    But for good and ill, it felt most like a Lucas film of the sequels, including the prequel-era Lucas. Canto Bight was like a prequel setpiece. It also started with a prank phonecall in a universe where they don't have phones and somebody made a yo momma joke, so even the humour shared some of the prequels' crudity.


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