J. K. Rowling is cancelled because she is a T.E.R.F [ADMIN WARNING IN POST #1]

LLMMLL · 01-10-2020 12:37am

Errashareesh wrote: »

No doubt they'd continue to identify as the gender they identify as - fair enough - but maybe realise that there are far worse things than the "obscenity" of people saying trans women are trans women but not women.

Weren't you saying a few pages back that it would be devastating for a cis woman diagnosed with cancer to see herself described as a person with a cervix?

But cancer would make a trans woman realise that being told she is not a woman is not all that serious?

01-10-2020 1:56am

LLMMLL wrote: »

I've had that debate probably at least 3 times and responded extensively. If you search under my username for keywords such as "definition" you'll find probably 100+ posts I've made on the issue.

I don't have the time these days to have the exact same debate a 4th or 5th time. But feel free to read my older posts.

It's fierce strange to me what you *do* seem to have time for, tbh, given how you have to dash any time there's a substantive question or point raised but you can find any number of moments to fling out a one-liner TERF zing, or a winkemoji or equate race with self-ID gender

Very, very strange, the dual nature of time tbh

It's as strange as the contrast between empathy demanded for someone experiencing gender dysphoria vs the sneering mockery of the concerns raised by women in this thread and elsewhere

I've no idea what the path to resolution of these issues looks like but any minority group that can only see their own rights and nobody else's isn't getting very far with wider society, and GRA will be a sore disappointment as a sticking plaster if TRA tactics continue to encroach upon women's rights without any thought for alliance, empathy or respect for difference.

Justin Credible Darts · 01-10-2020 1:59am

I doubt any trans woman would want him to be their advocate

01-10-2020 2:13am

Justin Credible Darts wrote: »

I doubt any trans woman would want him to be their advocate

I don't know LLs pronoun preference and we've seen plenty of online activism that is far more extreme and ugly than their avoidance and mockery in this thread, tbf so I don't think that's fair.

Clearly there's demand in some elements of MTF trans communities at least for extreme, no compromise aggression against women in particular, just not sure that allowing this to be such a prominent face of the movement is at all wise

LLMMLL · 01-10-2020 2:30am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It's fierce strange to me what you *do* seem to have time for, tbh, given how you have to dash any time there's a substantive question or point raised but you can find any number of moments to fling out a one-liner TERF zing, or a winkemoji or equate race with self-ID gender

Very, very strange, the dual nature of time tbh

It's as strange as the contrast between empathy demanded for someone experiencing gender dysphoria vs the sneering mockery of the concerns raised by women in this thread and elsewhere

I've no idea what the path to resolution of these issues looks like but any minority group that can only see their own rights and nobody else's isn't getting very far with wider society, and GRA will be a sore disappointment as a sticking plaster if TRA tactics continue to encroach upon women's rights without any thought for alliance, empathy or respect for difference.

It's pretty easy actually. Basically i don't have time for an endless circular debate answering the exact same questions I've answered multiple times. I instead point people to where they can find the answers they seek. If they're actually interested in reading my opinion and not just looking for a fight they should be happy with this.

Delirium · 01-10-2020 8:39am

Errashareesh wrote: »

No doubt they'd continue to identify as the gender they identify as - fair enough - but maybe realise that there are far worse things than the "obscenity" of people saying trans women are trans women but not women.

because it's incorrect. It's essentially saying trans women are men.

Had you said trans women are not cis women (i.e. assigned female at birth), you'd be correct.

Quantum Erasure · 01-10-2020 8:43am

can we agree trans women are not female?

OscarMIlde · 01-10-2020 8:44am

Delirium wrote: »

because it's incorrect. It's essentially saying trans women are men.

Had you said trans women are not cis women (i.e. assigned female at birth), you'd be correct.

Essentially trans women are men though. They may wish they weren't or believe they are not, but biologically they are men. No changes in dress, presentation, cosmetic alterations or hormonal interventions will alter that substantive fact.

Delirium · 01-10-2020 8:47am

Quantum Erasure wrote: »

can we agree trans women are not female?

possibly. define female.

Delirium · 01-10-2020 8:48am

OscarMIlde wrote: »

Essentially trans women are men though. They may wish they weren't or believe they are not, but biologically they are men. No changes in dress, presentation, cosmetic alterations or hormonal interventions will alter that substantive fact.

So you don't believe that gender exists, just biological sex?

Quantum Erasure · 01-10-2020 8:48am

Delirium wrote: »

possibly. define female.

first result from google,

adjective
of or denoting the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs, distinguished biologically by the production of gametes (ova) which can be fertilized by male gametes.
"a herd of female deer"
noun
a female person, animal, or plant.

Delirium · 01-10-2020 8:51am

Quantum Erasure wrote: »

first result from google,

adjective
of or denoting the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs, distinguished biologically by the production of gametes (ova) which can be fertilized by male gametes.
"a herd of female deer"
noun
a female person, animal, or plant.

Cheers. Then I would answer yes to your question about trans women not being female.

Dante7 · 01-10-2020 8:56am

An Irish woke bloke has waded in to tell women that they are wrong. He doesn't seem to be interested in engaging in debate though.

https://twitter.com/artimusfoul/status/1311236337387831296?s=20

Delirium · 01-10-2020 9:00am

any particular reason you ignored the Irish women who also were tweeting about that account (TCDFF) and astroturfing?

Gervais08 · 01-10-2020 9:03am

Delirium wrote: »

because it's incorrect. It's essentially saying trans women are men.

Had you said trans women are not cis women (i.e. assigned female at birth), you'd be correct.

No he wouldn’t. I wasn’t assigned female at birth. I was female from conception.

OscarMIlde · 01-10-2020 9:08am

Delirium wrote: »

So you don't believe that gender exists, just biological sex?

Gender is a construct designed to explain differences in behaviour between the sexes. Those differences are a combination of nature and nurture.

Delirium · 01-10-2020 9:08am

Gervais08 wrote: »

No he wouldn’t. I wasn’t assigned female at birth. I was female from conception.

and how does do anything to change the underlying message of my post, i.e. the distinction between trans and cis?

....

Had you said trans women are not cis women (i.e. female from conception), you'd be correct.

What say you to the above statement?

Errashareesh · 01-10-2020 9:10am

Delirium wrote: »

because it's incorrect. It's essentially saying trans women are men.

Had you said trans women are not cis women (i.e. assigned female at birth), you'd be correct.

Saying trans women are trans women and not women... is not essentially saying trans women are men. I don't understand how you could come to that conclusion. It kinda seems like you're just reeling off the dogma without questioning it. Nobody is "assigned whatever at birth". They are born the biological sex that they are born - in time they may feel they are the wrong gender. Just use a bit more critical thinking - consider how daft these phrases are instead of just buying into them because you feel you should.

Delirium wrote: »

possibly. define female.

Please. It's actually insulting. "Female" comes from biology.

Delirium wrote: »

So you don't believe that gender exists, just biological sex?

Gender does of course exist - that's why there are trans people. But does that mean denial of biology? Of course not.

Gervais08 · 01-10-2020 9:10am

Delirium wrote: »

and how does do anything to change the underlying message of my post, i.e. the distinction between trans and cis?

....

Had you said trans women are not cis women (i.e. female from conception), you'd be correct.

What say you to the above statement?

I find cis a wholly made up term that I find offensive and demeans me as a woman.

Women have not spent centuries fighting for equality and basic freedoms to have men come along and decide that they now have a new wheeze to control us - saying they are us.

Gervais08 · 01-10-2020 9:13am

Why are the deeply woke crowd so determined to rigidly apply 50s stereotypes ???

Wearing make up and feeling “girly” - whatever the heck that is - doesn’t mean you are less of a man. Embrace who you are, love your individuality!!!

sydthebeat · 01-10-2020 9:15am

Gervais08 wrote: »

No he wouldn’t. I wasn’t assigned female at birth. I was female from conception.

Technically we are all female from conception.

The Y Chromosome doesn't kick in until about 5 - 6 weeks after conception

Delirium · 01-10-2020 9:17am

Errashareesh wrote: »

Saying trans women are trans women and not women... is not essentially saying trans women are men. I don't understand how you could come to that conclusion. It kinda seems like you're just reeling off the dogma without questioning it. Nobody is "assigned whatever at birth". They are born the biological sex that they are born - in time they may feel they are the wrong gender. Just use a bit more critical thinking - consider how daft these phrases are instead of just buying into them because you feel you should.

Some posters have said there are biological men and women, and nothing else. "trans women are not women" is crystal clear in identifying them as men because it clearly states they are not a subset of women.

If you're upset with "assigned at birth", feel free to substitute female in it's place.

Please. It's actually insulting. "Female" comes from biology.

considering that people use terms to mean very different things, I see no harm in asking for clarification. Plus I agreed with the term presented, so no sure why you're insulted by the exchange?

Gender does of course exist - that's why there are trans people. But does that mean denial of biology? Of course not.

Didn't suggest that it does, but some people deny gender is a thing (which some of your posts are coming quite close to).

Errashareesh · 01-10-2020 9:19am

Dante7 wrote: »

An Irish woke bloke has waded in to tell women that they are wrong. He doesn't seem to be interested in engaging in debate though.

https://twitter.com/artimusfoul/status/1311236337387831296?s=20

He is a deplorable individual. It reminds me of white morons telling African Americans who are republican that they're self loathing Uncle Toms. Seriously - certain white people once again thinking they know better than black people. How ****ing dare they.

Quantum Erasure wrote: »

first result from google,

adjective
of or denoting the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs, distinguished biologically by the production of gametes (ova) which can be fertilized by male gametes.
"a herd of female deer"
noun
a female person, animal, or plant.

You of course mean well but I disagree with caving into that kind of obtuseness - an actual adult pretending to need to know what female means.

Libski · 01-10-2020 9:23am

karlitob wrote: »

I wouldn’t be so sure about that. But then what would I know - I’m not someone with gender dysphoria who was diagnosed with a cancer somewhat specific to the gender that they don’t want to be.

That's not a very understanding opinion. I believe that there are people who truly feel that they don't "fit" the body that they have. We used to call it "dysphoria" and now we generally call it "transexual" but the name only indicates our culture around it - not the reality that some people are born feeling "different".

I think that it's important to be respectful of someone's feelings regardless of your opinion of them.

And that's when we meet a line in the sand - is stating your opnion that biological men are men and biological women are women disrespectful, or factual?

I think that respect and tolerance is needed on both sides. People who believe that sex is biological need to appreciate that not everyone feels like they fit their body, and people who feel like they don't fit their body need to respect the fact that most people do and that's why most people believe that a biological male/female is a biological male/female.

But respect is key. Empathy is important. It's important to acknowledge how others feel and respect that.

Gatling · 01-10-2020 9:25am

Delirium wrote: »

"trans women are not women" is crystal clear in identifying them as men because it clearly states they are not a subset of women.

Explain how some how they become a subset of women just because they self identify as women ,
They are a male subset who say they are women .

Errashareesh · 01-10-2020 9:27am

Libski wrote: »

That's not a very understanding opinion. I believe that there are people who truly feel that they don't "fit" the body that they have. We used to call it "dysphoria" and now we generally call it "transexual" but the name only indicates our culture around it - not the reality that some people are born feeling "different".

I think that it's important to be respectful of someone's feelings regardless of your opinion of them.

And that's when we meet a line in the sand - is stating your opnion that biological men are men and biological women are women disrespectful, or factual?

I think that respect and tolerance is needed on both sides. People who believe that sex is biological need to appreciate that not everyone feels like they fit their body, and people who feel like they don't fit their body need to respect the fact that most people do and that's why most people believe that a biological male/female is a biological male/female.

But respect is key. Empathy is important. It's important to acknowledge how others feel and respect that.

Yeah of course but bearing in mind it goes both ways and not denying reality. I acknowledge gender, I don't deny biology.

volchitsa · 01-10-2020 9:28am

Delirium wrote: »

Some posters have said there are biological men and women, and nothing else. "trans women are not women" is crystal clear in identifying them as men because it clearly states they are not a subset of women.

So what about inter sex people? Surely one can acknowledge that they share charactistics of both sexes, even though they are still fundamentally one or other sex?

I think trans people can be considered in a somewhat similar way: men who share some mental characteristics of the female gender even though they are still biologically male, and vice versa for trans men. I don't see why that should be offensive to them.

keano_afc · 01-10-2020 9:29am

Dante7 wrote: »

An Irish woke bloke has waded in to tell women that they are wrong. He doesn't seem to be interested in engaging in debate though.

https://twitter.com/artimusfoul/status/1311236337387831296?s=20

He's a very creepy individual. Is he still hiding behind his little shield like a pathetic little coward?

Wibbs · 01-10-2020 9:31am

Delirium wrote: »

because it's incorrect. It's essentially saying trans women are men.

Had you said trans women are not cis women (i.e. assigned female at birth), you'd be correct.

Trans women are biologically men, as trans men are biologically women. These are facts, not conjecture, or make believe, or wishful thinking.

possibly. define female.

Ehh....

So you don't believe that gender exists, just biological sex?

Biological sex massively informs gender in the vast majority of people. This 1960's extreme notion of nurture is all is a patent nonsense. In a tiny minority you have a fault that leads to intersex where the biology and genetics are skewed. I'd personally put some Trans into this category, where the brain is more feminised or masculinised because of uterine hormone exposure and the like. So you can have an intersex brain that doesn't conform to biological sex.

However I would bet the farm now that in years to come it'll be found that many Trans do not fall into this category and are suffering from dysmorphia and other conditions(their rates of autism are off the scale compared to background for example) and Trans being in vogue for the real want of a better phrase is latched onto as an explanation. And in the current climate god forbid suggesting it can be a mental illness manifesting in some.

In some they might simply be Gay and find that hard to come to terms with so look at the Trans viewpoint to explain that. I've reckoned that's in play in more conservative cultures like the US. Oh I'm not Gay, that's disgusting, I'm actually a girl/boy type thing. I think it was Camille Paglia who commented that if she were a young Lesbian today, the confusion that hit her when she was coming out and coming to terms with that would likely make her feel more in common with Trans, but it would be daft. She's a Gay woman. End of.

Plus because Trans is in vogue again for the want of a better term, in the media, social and otherwise, there can be an element of belonging going on. There has been research that showed among young girls if one of their peers came out as Trans it was far more likely others would say they were too. Similar has been seen in rates of self harm like cutting and ED.

Wibbs · 01-10-2020 9:37am

sydthebeat wrote: »

Technically we are all female from conception.

The Y Chromosome doesn't kick in until about 5 - 6 weeks after conception

Oh god.... No, that's not how biological sex works, though a daftly common misconception. The Y chromosome is present from the get go, it "kicks" itself in early in the pregnancy, but male fetuses don't start off as "female from conception", they're not XX, they're XY.

J. K. Rowling is cancelled because she is a T.E.R.F [ADMIN WARNING IN POST #1]

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