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Medium & Long Term Property Market Chat

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    #122
    hometruths
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,798 ✭✭✭hometruths


    Hubertj wrote: »
    have any political parties included addressing long term mortgage arrears in their manifestos? Has a party even attempted to develop a policy on it? All i've ever read or heard is "engage with the banks and work something out". If there was a medium term plan it could attract more lenders to the market if they deemed that risk was reducing.

    That's my understanding as well. Engage with the banks!


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    #123
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,838 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Hubertj wrote: »
    Have prices fallen in the past due to a recession? Have repossessions been addressed in the past? How many new entrants to the banking/mortgage in the last decade (avant aside)? I don’t know the answer to the last 2 questions!

    have we addressed the issues in the financial sector, regarding credit creation, which has correlated with rising prices in the past?


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    #124
    hometruths
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,798 ✭✭✭hometruths


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    ...and im sure it would resolve our housing and accommodation issues?

    In your opinion what are our biggest "housing and accommodation issues"?


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    #125
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,838 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    schmittel wrote: »
    In your opinion what are our biggest "housing and accommodation issues"?

    supply of course, affordability, low wage inflation in comparison to property prices


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    #126
    Hubertj
    Registered Users Posts: 2,000 ✭✭✭Hubertj


    schmittel wrote: »
    In your opinion what are our biggest "housing and accommodation issues"?

    i'd say populism is another issue to add to the list


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    #127
    hometruths
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,798 ✭✭✭hometruths


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    supply of course, affordability, low wage inflation in comparison to property prices

    solving the mortgage arrears problem should go someway to helping supply and affordability.

    Doubt it will have much impact on wage inflation!


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    #128
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,838 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    schmittel wrote: »
    solving the mortgage arrears problem should go someway to helping supply and affordability.

    Doubt it will have much impact on wage inflation!

    how is it solvable?


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    #129
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,838 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Hubertj wrote: »
    i'd say populism is another issue to add to the list

    please explain?


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    #130
    hometruths
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,798 ✭✭✭hometruths


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    how is it solvable?

    Clearly there are only two solutions to the mortgage arrears problem.

    Either the mortgage holders start paying their mortgages or the banks start repossessing houses.

    Anything else is some variation of extend and pretend.


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    #131
    Hubertj
    Registered Users Posts: 2,000 ✭✭✭Hubertj


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    please explain?

    SF win votes in GE based on some socialist boll*xology peddled by bombers. Many people think its a simple fix, which is a LIE.


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    #132
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,838 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    schmittel wrote: »
    Clearly there are only two solutions to the mortgage arrears problem.

    Either the mortgage holders start paying their mortgages or the banks start repossessing houses.

    Anything else is some variation of extend and pretend.

    what if either cant be done, or only the repossessions are successful?

    is this what is exactly what we ve been doing in relation to our more serious macro problems?


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    #133
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,838 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Hubertj wrote: »
    SF win votes in GE based on some socialist boll*xology peddled by bombers. Many people think its a simple fix, which is a LIE.

    wouldnt be overly concerned about sf and the left, very unlikely theyll get into power, whether theyre in government or not


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    #134
    hometruths
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,798 ✭✭✭hometruths


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    what if either cant be done, or only the repossessions are successful?

    is this what is exactly what we've been doing in relation to our more serious macro problems?

    There is no reason that both cannot be done.

    A combination of above should be possible, i.e those who can afford it, pay, and those who cannot get repossessed.

    The only reason this combination cannot be achieved is that if nobody can afford to pay, in which case then all should be repossessed.

    This is the simple nature of economic cycles. In good times, things are prosperous, and inevitably capital gets misallocated. Things turn bad and it is necessary to flush out the inefficient uses of capital, absorb losses, and put the remaining capital to better use.

    This is not some revelatory new ideology. It is what happens in economies all over the world.


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    #135
    fliball123
    Registered Users Posts: 7,445 ✭✭✭fliball123


    schmittel wrote: »
    There is no reason that both cannot be done.

    A combination of above should be possible, i.e those who can afford it, pay, and those who cannot get repossessed.

    The only reason this combination cannot be achieved is that if nobody can afford to pay, in which case then all should be repossessed.

    This is the simple nature of economic cycles. In good times, things are prosperous, and inevitably capital gets misallocated. Things turn bad and it is necessary to flush out the inefficient uses of capital, absorb losses, and put the remaining capital to better use.

    This is not some revelatory new ideology. It is what happens in economies all over the world.


    There is no chance and you can mark this post absolutely no chance of mass repossessions. If they did not do it when the country was on the upper no government party will entertain the family home been taken by the bank when we are in a recession, jobs are being lost and a global pandemic is in place. Way too many left leaning mouthpieces who will shout it from the rooftops and it would spell the end of the current government. Already they are losing ground to parties to their left who are championing a house for everyone should be a right in this country. The problem is the banks were handcuffed and where shot down and demonized during the last recession when they tried to take the home back. Now we have MABS, PIPS and all other kinds of left leaning orgs and left leaning solutions that boots the problem down the road. When something is in place like this it is very hard to take it away.


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    #136
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,838 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    schmittel wrote:
    This is the simple nature of economic cycles. In good times, things are prosperous, and inevitably capital gets misallocated. Things turn bad and it is necessary to flush out the inefficient uses of capital, absorb losses, and put the remaining capital to better use.

    ....but markets are efficient! Where did this capital come from, and where does it go to?
    schmittel wrote:
    This is not some revelatory new ideology. It is what happens in economies all over the world.


    So, what happens the individuals that find themselves repossed?


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    #137
    hometruths
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,798 ✭✭✭hometruths


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    ....but markets are efficient! Where did this capital come from, and where does it go to?




    So, what happens the individuals that find themselves repossed?

    The market here is not efficient. That’s the point.

    The same thing that happens to individuals who move out of any house. They buy or rent another one. They pay for it out of their own resources, and if they are unable to do so the government will provide support.

    Again this is not some sort of wacky new theory.


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    #138
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,838 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    schmittel wrote:
    The market here is not efficient. That’s the point.

    ....but why aren't the markets efficient here?
    schmittel wrote:
    The same thing that happens to individuals who move out of any house. They buy or rent another one. They pay for it out of their own resources, and if they are unable to do so the government will provide support.

    ....and the government is doing this by.....


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    #139
    hometruths
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,798 ✭✭✭hometruths


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    ....but why aren't the markets efficient here?



    ....and the government is doing this by.....

    What?! We are talking about a market in which some participants treat loan repayments as optional. That is not a model of efficiency.

    The government does it by hap and social housing. I think I know where you’re going with this so can you do us both a favour and get there quickly?!


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    #140
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,838 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    schmittel wrote: »
    What?! We are talking about a market in which some participants treat loan repayments as optional. That is not a model of efficiency.

    The government does it by hap and social housing. I think I know where you’re going with this so can you do us both a favour and get there quickly?!

    im trying to understand your logic, so please bare with me. thank you

    but i really thought the market was always efficient?

    ...but what about those stuck in temporary(permeant) accommodation?


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    #141
    hometruths
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,798 ✭✭✭hometruths


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    im trying to understand your logic, so please bare with me. thank you

    but i really thought the market was always efficient?

    ...but what about those stuck in temporary(permeant) accommodation?

    The way you are drawing this out could become tedious for other posters.

    You thought wrong. Government policy often competes with the efficiency of markets, sometimes for better sometimes for worse.

    re temporary accommodation are you talking about the people in temporary accommodation right now or the people that would be in temporary accommodation if their house was repossessed?


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    #142
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,838 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    schmittel wrote: »
    The way you are drawing this out could become tedious for other posters.

    You thought wrong. Government policy often competes with the efficiency of markets, sometimes for better sometimes for worse.

    re temporary accommodation are you talking about the people in temporary accommodation right now or the people that would be in temporary accommodation if their house was repossessed?

    ...but i always thought markets were efficient in open economies such as ours? so is the answer, we remove government from the equation?

    im talking about both


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    #143
    hometruths
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,798 ✭✭✭hometruths


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    ...but i always thought markets were efficient in open economies such as ours? so is the answer, we remove government from the equation?

    im talking about both

    The problem with repossessions is political. We cannot remove the government altogether I would like to see a change in policy as per my previous post on the subject. Have you read it?

    Re temporary if somebody requires temporary accommodation after their home has been repossessed, government should provide it for them, just as any other citizen who cannot afford their own home.

    Re those in temporary accommodation they will remain there until something more permanent becomes available, which will be sooner.


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    #144
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,838 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    schmittel wrote: »
    The problem with repossessions is political. We cannot remove the government altogether I would like to see a change in policy as per my previous post on the subject. Have you read it?

    Re temporary if somebody requires temporary accommodation after their home has been repossessed, government should provide it for them, just as any other citizen who cannot afford their own home.

    Re those in temporary accommodation they will remain there until something more permanent becomes available, which will be sooner.

    ...so by any chance is the market actually not completely able to provide us with all of our needs?

    is 10 years a definition of soon?


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    #145
    hometruths
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,798 ✭✭✭hometruths


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    ...so by any chance is the market actually not completely able to provide us with all of our needs?

    is 10 years a definition of soon?

    Yes there are occasions that the market cannot provide us with our needs.thats why we have government supports.

    No 10 years is not a definition of soon.


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    #146
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,838 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    schmittel wrote: »
    Yes there are occasions that the market cannot provide us with our needs.thats why we have government supports.

    No 10 years is not a definition of soon.

    so can we please stop with all this the market nonsense, as i completely agree, the relationship between the private sector and the public sector, is in fact a symbiotic one, but are needed, equally, and both need to be flexible, to absorb shocks such as now


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    #147
    hometruths
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,798 ✭✭✭hometruths


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    so can we please stop with all this the market nonsense, as i completely agree, the relationship between the private sector and the public sector, is in fact a symbiotic one, but are needed, equally, and both need to be flexible, to absorb shocks such as now

    I have no idea the point you have been trying to make over the last few posts, and indeed it seems like you feel you have now made conclusively.

    Can you spell it out to me? Preferably in one post.


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    #148
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,838 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    schmittel wrote: »
    I have no idea the point you have been trying to make over the last few posts, and indeed it seems like you feel you have now made conclusively.

    Can you spell it out to me? Preferably in one post.

    there is an overwhelming belief in society, and ive noticed amongst some boards members, particularly on this forum, that truly believe in the nonsense of, 'the market knows best'!


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    #149
    hometruths
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,798 ✭✭✭hometruths


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    there is an overwhelming belief in society, and ive noticed amongst some boards members, particularly on this forum, that truly believe in the nonsense of, 'the market knows best'!

    I am not sure how you proved that point after our protracted one on one.

    My point on repossessions is that I believe Mary in number 22 Acacia Avenue should not have to pay John in No 24s mortgage as well as her own.

    And I think paddy who has no house at all, should not be Paying John’s mortgage either. He’s under enough pressure as it is trying to get his own mortgage.

    Nothing to do with market knows best.


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    #150
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,838 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    schmittel wrote: »
    I am not sure how you proved that point after our protracted one on one.

    My point on repossessions is that I believe Mary in number 22 Acacia Avenue should not have to pay John in No 24s mortgage as well as her own.

    And I think paddy who has no house at all, should not be Paying John’s mortgage either. He’s under enough pressure as it is trying to get his own mortgage.

    Nothing to do with market knows best.

    whos pay whos what where?


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    #151
    hometruths
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,798 ✭✭✭hometruths


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    whos pay whos what where?

    Apologies, I’m probably as thick as mince, but I am just not following this train of conversation, so I give up!


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