Journalism and Cycling 2: the difficult second album

Oymyakon · 29-09-2020 11:41AM

breezy1985 wrote: »

But we have also ( I hate all the terms I am about to use) been sucked into the "culture wars" and despite any of our personal politics are all targeted as "woke lefty liberals" who all vote green. And if you think we have it bad youde want to see some of the things they say and threaten to do to Greta Thornburg who is just a child at the end of the day.

Good point about 'culture wars'. We are at a point in time were people are incredibly polarized over a wide variety of things. Social Media possibly to blame as there doesn't seem to be much middle ground anymore when it comes to anything.

magicbastarder · 29-09-2020 11:44AM

someone declared a war against cyclists and neglected to inform them.

JMcL · 29-09-2020 11:45AM

magicbastarder wrote: »

i suspect it's got something to do with the fact that the department of transport has zero say over the running of the park.

It's the OPW - which has some FF/FG (forget which) junior minister who demanded because - and I kid you not here, this is a quote I read at the time - people commuting from Longford needed to get to the city centre as well. Either Longford commuters like taking the scenic route or somebody needs a bit of revision on the national road network

magicbastarder · 29-09-2020 11:48AM

FG minister. from limerick, IIRC. who tried to get the OPW to take the blame for the decision (the mail trail was made public where he was trying to get them to change them mentioning they'd done it on foot of his decision).

Thelonious Monk · 29-09-2020 11:48AM

breezy1985 wrote: »

Some of it is due to a massive increase in car ownership for instance my estate in 30 yes has gone from less that 1 car per house to about 2 per house and seeing cars at the school gate was very rare in the early 90s ( this is just me judging by eye not stats).

But we have also ( I hate all the terms I am about to use) been sucked into the "culture wars" and despite any of our personal politics are all targeted as "woke lefty liberals" who all vote green. And if you think we have it bad youde want to see some of the things they say and threaten to do to Greta Thornburg who is just a child at the end of the day.

Similar to what the poster was saying about how you used to cycle to work but are now seen as a "cyclist" with an agenda I have heard a fair few interviews with long term foreigners in Ireland who say they experience much more racism now than in the 80s 90s as it has been so heavily politicised

It's funny yeah, on Twitter the anti cyclists are often anti-mask, anti-immigration, anti-greens etc. Maybe they're just anti-everything.

magicbastarder · 29-09-2020 11:49AM

magicbastarder wrote: »

he doesn't drive, FWIW, so if any bias does exist, it's not based on that.

there's actually an interesting backstory to where i read about him not owning a car:

https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/tv-radio-web/a-columnist-s-job-confers-some-privileges-and-obligations-1.1686487

(i don't think he explicitly mentions it in that article, but it was a response to john waters suing RTE over the late late appearance)

breezy1985 · 29-09-2020 11:51AM

magicbastarder wrote: »

someone declared a war against cyclists and neglected to inform them.

Well whether we like it or not they have sent the tanks out on the streets to get us : )

Tombo2001 · 29-09-2020 11:53AM

magicbastarder wrote: »

i suspect it's got something to do with the fact that the department of transport has zero say over the running of the park.

Point taken - but nonetheless the decision was explicitly take as a reflection of the parks role as an arterial route from North and West Dublin (and hinterland) into the City Centre.

It was 100% and explicitly due to to this, according to Minister for OPW - as such, the question arises as to why something that is viewed by govt as a core part of the transport infrastructure is outside of the remit of the Minister for Transport.

Another way to look at it is - decision making on transport infrastructure and strategy - e.g. how do people commute from Castleknock and Blanch to the city centre - is long way outside of the remit of the OPW, and by extension the Minister for OPW.

Nonetheless - this is not just the first decision he makes, but the very first decision the government makes on coming into office.

The result is that (in my view) cyclist numbers in the park are down at the very least 50% since April / May.

Ultimately as we all know the decision was taken by TDs based out in that constituency who clearly pushed for it, and Min for OPW went along with it.

Which brings me back to the silence from the Minister for Transport (and leader of the Green Party) on the issue.

Tombo2001 · 29-09-2020 11:55AM

magicbastarder wrote: »

yeah, when people refer to his anti-cycling bias, that's the only article i can see which is ever cited.
he doesn't drive, FWIW, so if any bias does exist, it's not based on that.

Maybe so, but of all the anti cyclist rants i can remember, it was the most effective - it was absolutely damning and got huge publicity.

breezy1985 · 29-09-2020 11:56AM

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

It's funny yeah, on Twitter the anti cyclists are often anti-mask, anti-immigration, anti-greens etc. Maybe they're just anti-everything.

Vegan, trans, bi and any women who don't know their place same goes for gay men and all lesbians are "Antifa woke anarchists"

Tombo2001 · 29-09-2020 12:00PM

swarlb wrote: »

I was born in the 50's... God be with the days when no one gave a damn about cyclists, they just 'cycled', either to work and back, or if they raced, went for spins up the Dublin or Wicklow mountains or whatever hill was nearby, and no one batted an eyelid.
Somewhere along the way the whole scene got muddled and cyclists somehow became 'the hated ones'.... I often wonder where this hatred came from, and who caused it....

Apologies, and I dont mean to be ageist. I'm no spring chicken myself.

magicbastarder · 29-09-2020 12:01PM

i do like the joke (and it's a joke, no more than that) that if you want to know what it's like to be a woman, head out on a bike.
if you come a cropper, people will blame *you* for your misfortune, ask what you were wearing as if it was a factor, etc. etc.

Thelonious Monk · 29-09-2020 12:07PM

magicbastarder wrote: »

i do like the joke (and it's a joke, no more than that) that if you want to know what it's like to be a woman, head out on a bike.
if you come a cropper, people will blame *you* for your misfortune, ask what you were wearing as if it was a factor, etc. etc.

There was a girl hit by a bus on Parnell St today and rushed to hospital. I tortured myself by looking at the Dublin Live article on Facebook. Just post after post blaming cyclists for not following the rules. Even an old woman my mam's age blaming the girl, it's really sad that it's like this. There was another crash involving cars today and it's all RIP omg terrible xxx etc.
How can this be stopped?

Tombo2001 · 29-09-2020 12:10PM

breezy1985 wrote: »

There is also the 3rd more insidious bicycle hater who is linking it to other as they call it "lefty snowflake politics" and some I have encountered don't even drive they just see us in with the vegans and the trans people in some stupid culture war.

Just a point on this - "snowflake politics" yes - Lefty....No.

A lot of the so called parties of the left (and I would include Sinn Fein) on this - they dont really care about Cyclists at all, have no real views, not supportive.

I had a long look at the varying Cycling Policies of the parties at the last election - whether it would act on it or not, I actually felt Fianna Fail's was amongst the best. Fine Gael, Social Democrats and Greens also good.

The only major part with No policies at all on cycling was Sinn Fein. People Before Profit would have been similar. And the likes of Mannix Flynn would I am sure be similar.

I guess cycling is a middle class thing - although to be fair the B2W scheme which as we all know is a half price bike - is something that is not on offer to many low paid workers, and to the unemployed. However, a consequence is that the parties that target these groups dont care about cycling.

Thelonious Monk · 29-09-2020 12:11PM

Tombo2001 wrote: »

I guess cycling is a middle class thing

Not really, so many low paid foreign workers cycle to work, or cycle as part of their job. I live in a council estate and my neighbour cycles to work in the city, as do others on the road. Lots of people can't afford cars.

Harrybelafonte · 29-09-2020 12:13PM

I don't mean to be dismissive of all the comments here, but there are repeated cases in this thread of people going to see what the reactions of the rest of the public are... you know what they'll be, maybe you go in the hope that this time things will change, but they don't. No-one will change these people's mind, you can't debate them, you can't get them to live a day in your shoes. There's no "need to see what they other side says".

Every time you listen to those shows, or read those awful comments sections you do nothing but add to the audience these morons have and put money in the spreaders of all this tosh.

Walk away from the papers, the radio, social media, let those people bark at each other. The attitude towards you may not change, but you'll not have to carry the weight of those comments with you, you might feel better for it.

magicbastarder · 29-09-2020 12:13PM

Tombo2001 wrote: »

I guess cycling is a middle class thing

it probably is to a certain extent (certainly in the leisure category), and i've seen some bashing of cycling facilities recently, the argument going that 'cycling is a middle class male thing, so why are we pandering to them'.
the obvious answer is 'well, if it *is* a middle aged male thing, that's precisely why we should be pandering to it'.

Thelonious Monk · 29-09-2020 12:14PM

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

Walk away from the papers, the radio, social media, let those people bark at each other. The attitude towards you may not change, but you'll not have to carry the weight of those comments with you, you might feel better for it.

You have a point, and I do try and avoid, but I just can't help myself sometimes with a morbid curiosity. I can't see attitudes changing in my lifetime so yeah I should probably just avoid these things and get on with my life.

Tombo2001 · 29-09-2020 12:16PM

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Not really, so many low paid foreign workers cycle to work, or cycle as part of their job. I live in a council estate and my neighbour cycles to work in the city, as do others on the road. Lots of people can't afford cars.

Point taken, but I would still feel (i) most people can afford a car these days and (ii) cycling is not commonplace in working class areas outside of teenagers. Maybe I'm wrong, I lived in Cabra for a long time, and that would be my view.

You are 100% on foreign people who move here, especially students.

magicbastarder · 29-09-2020 12:17PM

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

I don't mean to be dismissive of all the comments here

i 100% get what you're saying, but the problem is that those attitudes follow many people out of social media and media on to the roads. so often it's not a case of being able to ignore it if it follows you around.

you can bet your bottom dollar that the sort of stuff pat kenny puts out on his radio show is more likely to be heard by your average FF or FG TD/councillor, than the opposing view. and that will normalise it for them.

Tombo2001 · 29-09-2020 12:18PM

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

I don't mean to be dismissive of all the comments here, but there are repeated cases in this thread of people going to see what the reactions of the rest of the public are... you know what they'll be, maybe you go in the hope that this time things will change, but they don't. No-one will change these people's mind, you can't debate them, you can't get them to live a day in your shoes. There's no "need to see what they other side says".

Every time you listen to those shows, or read those awful comments sections you do nothing but add to the audience these morons have and put money in the spreaders of all this tosh.

Walk away from the papers, the radio, social media, let those people bark at each other. The attitude towards you may not change, but you'll not have to carry the weight of those comments with you, you might feel better for it.

Thats why I have such a love/ hate with the Irish Times - I woudnt listen to Pat Kenny or Newstalk anyway, I wouldnt read the facebook comments.

But I do like reading the paper.

And more than a few times, my Saturday morning with a nice coffee and slice of toast, and enjoy the paper has been ****ed up by getting to the Letters page of the Irish Times - and there it is, Cyclists on the footpath ....again.

Harrybelafonte · 29-09-2020 12:19PM

magicbastarder wrote: »

i 100% get what you're saying, but the problem is that those attitudes follow many people out of social media and media on to the roads. so often it's not a case of being able to ignore it if it follows you around.

That's my point though, whether you engage or not doesn't matter. It's 100% still going to follow you around either way. Going to look at comments about cyclists will do nothing but effect your own state of mind, f'k them like.

Harrybelafonte · 29-09-2020 12:20PM

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Thats why I have such a love/ hate with the Irish Times - I woudnt listen to Pat Kenny or Newstalk anyway, I wouldnt read the facebook comments.

But I do like reading the paper.

And more than a few times, my Saturday morning with a nice coffee and slice of toast, and enjoy the paper has been ****ed up by getting to the Letters page of the Irish Times - and there it is, Cyclists on the footpath ....again.

There's little difference between the letters page in the IT and a comments section on The Journal, bar the eloquence of the writing, the messages are usually the same, lol

Btw, as regards the 90s and it being better and all, I was invited to a dinner party in D4 back in maybe 1995 and the topic of discussion amongst the adults there was... that "the blacks are eating the rats out of the Dodder". I sh*t you not.

Plus we had to join the Anti Nazi League, European Youth Against Racism, Unite Against Facism, etc back then to try and make our voices heard about the racism here and in the UK, let's not make like the 80s and 90s were some liberal paradise

magicbastarder · 29-09-2020 12:22PM

https://twitter.com/CiaranCuffe/status/1310899270548099072

Tombo2001 · 29-09-2020 12:24PM

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

There's little difference between the letters page in the IT and a comments section on The Journal, bar the eloquence of the writing, the messages are usually the same, lol

What I dont get is why they are alienating their readership - maybe its just me that gets pissed off about it.

It reminds me of when a new Lidl went into Drumcondra last year - they had a cement truck on the bike path everyday for six months - and when the store opens they give 95% of the parking space to cars, 5% to bikes (just 4 rails).

Its like.....lads really......you have cycling special deals twice or three times a year that sell out in hours - does it not occur to ye that some of your customers are cyclists?

breezy1985 · 29-09-2020 12:26PM

I would say the perception of cycling is middle class.

This could be down to a couple of things like certainly I would say in Limerick at least the vocal cycling advocates are mostly middle class and middle class people are also more likely to have the fancy high end bike and kit making them more noticeable to the general public.

I would say just looking at it myself though that there isn't really any huge pattern to the demographics in Limerick but I could be wrong.

And if anyone annoys you about the "it's only middle class" thing just remind em that Sean Kellys father was a farmer and Sam's a soccer player

Seth Brundle · 29-09-2020 12:28PM

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

There's little difference between the letters page in the IT and a comments section on The Journal, bar the eloquence of the writing, the messages are usually the same, lol

Case in point today...

Cyclists, ring those bells

A chara, – Having just survived, yet again, and narrowly, being sliced in two by a silent cyclist coming up behind me, I am crying to the heavens for the sound of bells.

Cyclists are everywhere now, especially here in Dún Laoghaire, where our traffic system has been overhauled (I refrain from writing “ruined”) to give cyclists parity along the seafront.

Environmental concerns are vital, but I am not getting into that argument. But anyone who values their health and bodily integrity can get very fed up with the numerous times it is necessary to leap briskly out of the way when perceiving the silent cyclist at the last minute.

Why do cyclists not ring their bells?

When I asked one senior gentleman cyclist if he had a bell, in reasonable tones, I was immediately accused of being abusive.

It seems to me that Hobbes’s war of all against all is imminent, with the cyclists on one side and pedestrians on the other.

The law (1963, amended) is that all bicycles in Ireland must have a bell.

Folks, please use them. – Is mise,

ANGELA LONG,
Dún Laoghaire,
Co Dublin.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/cyclists-ring-those-bells-1.4366769

cletus · 29-09-2020 12:32PM

Surely part of the middle class or elitist view of cycling is how some cyclists perceive other cyclists.

Even on this forum, I've come across posters trotting out the No True Scotsman fallacy.

Large bottle small glass · 29-09-2020 12:35PM

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

I think it's down to more traffic lights, more traffic, and people just becoming more entitled for some reason that's led to the hatred of cyclists. Seeing someone cycling between cars or through a pedestrian crossing is something that they can vent their frustrations on. It's almost like some kind of shared psychosis among the populace.

Driving is pretty expensive, and a lot of time commuting across cities is pretty a horrible, stressful experience.

By comparison cycling is cheap and can be enjoyable for commuting.

A lot of the angst is the realisation that there is a better, way cheaper alternative or at least there was before you bought that 4 bed in Urlingford when you work in Ballsbridge.

The motor industry sells a mirage which is mostly boll1x.

When Victor in Dalkey finally gets to bring his Range Rover for a drive up the mountains at the weekend his progess is constantly impeded by fat auld lads in tights.

Ergo cyclists are cnuts.

Expecting drive time radio to be pro cycling is like wishing for roast pork when your Jewish neighbour invites you for dinner

Tombo2001 · 29-09-2020 12:36PM

cletus wrote: »

Surely part of the middle class or elitist view of cycling is how some cyclists perceive other cyclists.

Even on this forum, I've come across posters trotting out the No True Scotsman fallacy.

Ok maybe so - but explain then why Sinn Fein, the largest political party that targetting lower income workers - has no Cycling policy, didnt even mention it.

While FG/ FF/ Greens are all very vocal on it.

Journalism and Cycling 2: the difficult second album

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