Dublin - Significant reduction in rents coming?

Edgware · 27-09-2020 1:27pm

Dav010 wrote: »

Enlighten me as to what a “professional” LL looks for that an “amateur” one doesn’t?.

If you can't work that outfor yourself you there is no point enlightening you

beauf · 27-09-2020 1:37pm

Edgware wrote: »

Their rent defaulter rate is farless than that of the one property landlords. You can be sure that they have a higher return, more businesslike approach and greater ability to avail oftax advantages and rent increases than the Joe Soap landlord.

Can you link to where you get the rent default "rate" and adjusted for the rent price point. Explain what that means, as someone missing rent now and then isn't the big issue.

... considering REITs involvement in the lower part of the market which will have the most issues is very small...

beauf · 27-09-2020 1:42pm

Edgware wrote: »

If you can't work that outfor yourself you there is no point enlightening you

He's asking you how do you define it.

Since there are loads of ways to define it. I could hire a professional plumber and they could be abysmal.

Dav010 · 27-09-2020 2:39pm

Edgware wrote: »

If you can't work that outfor yourself you there is no point enlightening you

I’ve been in small scale property development and renting for over 25 years, but you have information I really would appreciate, because I’ve had bad tenants the same as many “amateurs” and “professionals” have. What am I missing when choosing tenants?

Edgware · 27-09-2020 5:02pm

Dav010 wrote: »

I’ve been in small scale property development and renting for over 25 years, but you have information I really would appreciate, because I’ve had bad tenants the same as many “amateurs” and “professionals” have. What am I missing when choosing tenants?

I would have to know what was the problem with the bad tenants that you have had the experience of. However having being in the business myself for 30 years I have found that Irish tenants have no conception of a lease/contract and I stay away from them. My only problem over the years was a bad experience with an Irish girl. I always check out the background and unless I know their previous landlord I wouldnt trust the reference. I have no difficulty contacting the H.R. department of their employer in a nice polite manner to establish that they are actually employed there. You would be surprised what you would learn that way. I also leave them my contact details and let them know to contact me if they have new employees from abroad seeking accommodation. If I get a tenant from them I would always send on a little voucher to the staff member who referred them. I am fortunate also in that on three separate occasions I have rented a property to friends of the existing tenant with an average tenancy of four years. I have never had rent defaulted or people doing a flit.

brisan · 28-09-2020 8:36am

Dav010 wrote: »

Renters will go back into the market when colleges/offices return to normal, Airbnb’s will return when tourism resumes, not enough properties are being built to increase supply when normal service resumes, that is why I think rents will rise again over the next 12 months.

What are the chances of rents rising in the next 12 months? What is the benefit of RPZs now? Do away with them and LLs will drop rents knowing that they can increase them when demand returns.

We may be waiting years and I mean years for colleges and offices to get back to normal ,as for tourism who knows
Who knows the new normal we are experiencing now with regard to college and offices may just become normal

brisan · 28-09-2020 8:45am

beauf wrote: »

That seems to run counter to the theme of this thread. Either rents are falling out they are not. If only a handful of people lower rents it would not have any significant effect on the market. But if rents are falling in the volume claimed in this thread, there would have to be a lot of people lowering rent.

Headline rate may not fall but actual rate may or something like one month free so actual rate falls

Dav010 · 28-09-2020 9:05am

brisan wrote: »

We may be waiting years and I mean years for colleges and offices to get back to normal ,as for tourism who knows
Who knows the new normal we are experiencing now with regard to college and offices may just become normal

You really really mean years?

As times goes on and we adapt testing/contact tracing/treatments, colleges/work will return to normal. Add the likelihood of a vaccine and there must be a reasonable chance that college attendance will return by the beginning of the new academic year 2021-22. Office attendance may well depend on whether companies assess productivity associated with wfh, and/or take this opportunity to reduce costs by cutting staff/office rental costs. Right now, wfh may be great for some, but I heard a recruitment consultant being interviewed on Newstalk who feared out of sight, out of mind may become a real issue in the next 12 months. So, going back into the office may appeal to many when it is fully available.

beauf · 28-09-2020 9:36am

brisan wrote: »

Headline rate may not fall but actual rate may or something like one month free so actual rate falls

You can't have big drops in the listed rent, the whole market falling, as posted in this thread, and no landlords reducing rent as also posted in this thread. Both of those things can't be true at the same time.

beauf · 28-09-2020 9:47am

Edgware wrote: »

I would have to know what was the problem with the bad tenants that you have had the experience of. However having being in the business myself for 30 years I have found that Irish tenants have no conception of a lease/contract and I stay away from them. My only problem over the years was a bad experience with an Irish girl. I always check out the background and unless I know their previous landlord I wouldnt trust the reference. I have no difficulty contacting the H.R. department of their employer in a nice polite manner to establish that they are actually employed there. You would be surprised what you would learn that way. I also leave them my contact details and let them know to contact me if they have new employees from abroad seeking accommodation. If I get a tenant from them I would always send on a little voucher to the staff member who referred them. I am fortunate also in that on three separate occasions I have rented a property to friends of the existing tenant with an average tenancy of four years. I have never had rent defaulted or people doing a flit.

So you've pretty much no experience of bad tenants.

How do renters in this thread feel about shoddy HR departments being giving out personal information without your permission to LL's...

Not to mention "gifts"

Edgware why do you feel you have to go this route to check references? Is there no "official" way of checking this?

The_Conductor · 28-09-2020 9:59am

beauf wrote: »

Edgware why do you feel you have to go this route to check references? Is there no "official" way of checking this?

There is no official route to check references- landlords decide how to do so on the fly. Ideally there would be a register where both landlords and tenants could have ratings posted, along with reasons why ratings were made in the manner in which they were made- to enable both parties to approach their situation with their eyes wide open.

The other issue resolves around contracts. I accept what Edgeware is saying about Irish people not caring about contracts- I get asked to step in and evaluate contract disputes frequently as part of my day job. It is far from black and white though- parties from pretty much anywhere can decide to run roughshod over contractual obligations, especially if they feel, often correctly, that the wronged party has no manner of pursuing them.

The current regulatory environment is toxic- and is not conducive to situations other than those akin to how Edgeware chooses his tenants- where he gets friends of the current tenants and/or personal recommendations from HR staff in multinational companies- who he in turn rewards with vouchers for their curation of his prospective tenants.

Its an indictment of the current regulatory regime in Ireland- that Edgeware's system works- and it does work. I can't hand over heart suggest that were I in Edgeware's situation I wouldn't do something similar- however, my choice would not to be in the sector at all, its a head wreck for everyone concerned.

beauf · 28-09-2020 10:58am

The_Conductor wrote: »

There is no official route to check references- ...

You've kinda jumped the gun, speaking for him...

But the point is there is no official or guaranteed way of checking references. Even if a Workplace gives a reference, its no guarantee the tenant won't go bad, and no protection if they do.

Getting referred from a company is one thing. Giving out personal information though has all sorts of issues.

Dav010 · 28-09-2020 12:59pm

The_Conductor wrote: »

There is no official route to check references- landlords decide how to do so on the fly. Ideally there would be a register where both landlords and tenants could have ratings posted, along with reasons why ratings were made in the manner in which they were made- to enable both parties to approach their situation with their eyes wide open.

The other issue resolves around contracts. I accept what Edgeware is saying about Irish people not caring about contracts- I get asked to step in and evaluate contract disputes frequently as part of my day job. It is far from black and white though- parties from pretty much anywhere can decide to run roughshod over contractual obligations, especially if they feel, often correctly, that the wronged party has no manner of pursuing them.

The current regulatory environment is toxic- and is not conducive to situations other than those akin to how Edgeware chooses his tenants- where he gets friends of the current tenants and/or personal recommendations from HR staff in multinational companies- who he in turn rewards with vouchers for their curation of his prospective tenants.

Its an indictment of the current regulatory regime in Ireland- that Edgeware's system works- and it does work. I can't hand over heart suggest that were I in Edgeware's situation I wouldn't do something similar- however, my choice would not to be in the sector at all, its a head wreck for everyone concerned.

Edgeware said that LL who know the business are able to do their research and are less likely to get caught, putting forward that those in the “know” contact HR depts for information is making two huge assumptions, firstly that HR would discuss an employee with the LL, and secondly that the person in HR knows anything about the employee beyond their job in the company. That can be gotten off a reference.

Using the avoidance of renting to Irish people as an indicator that a LL knows the business is ludicrous, that is a huge swathe of prospective tenants Edgeware is avoiding.

The_Conductor · 28-09-2020 1:21pm

Dav010 wrote: »

Using the avoidance of renting to Irish people as an indicator that a LL knows the business is ludicrous, that is a huge swathe of prospective tenants Edgeware is avoiding.

Ludicrous or otherwise- that is the prerogative of Edgeware, and if he/she decides to do so, who is to stop them. In any event, as a modus operandi- it has worked for them thus far- whether or not it'll work in the future is a different question.

Dav010 · 28-09-2020 1:33pm

The_Conductor wrote: »

Ludicrous or otherwise- that is the prerogative of Edgeware, and if he/she decides to do so, who is to stop them. In any event, as a modus operandi- it has worked for them thus far- whether or not it'll work in the future is a different question.

Edgware made a generalisation that “amateurs” are more likely to get bad tenants, I asked him/her what a bad tenant looks like to I can avoid them.
Giving examples of how “professionals” do their research as, avoid Irish people and contact HR is hogwash, any clued in HR will drop the phone instantly, and even if they do talk, are they going to tell you if the tenant is likely to be a problem?

Edgware wrote: »

In any business there are risks but if you know the business the likelihood of taking a bad tenant are far less. Too many landlords are amateurs who thought "this is a handy way of making money"

28-09-2020 1:38pm

The_Conductor wrote: »

There is no official route to check references- landlords decide how to do so on the fly. Ideally there would be a register where both landlords and tenants could have ratings posted, along with reasons why ratings were made in the manner in which they were made- to enable both parties to approach their situation with their eyes wide open.

The other issue resolves around contracts. I accept what Edgeware is saying about Irish people not caring about contracts- I get asked to step in and evaluate contract disputes frequently as part of my day job. It is far from black and white though- parties from pretty much anywhere can decide to run roughshod over contractual obligations, especially if they feel, often correctly, that the wronged party has no manner of pursuing them.

The current regulatory environment is toxic- and is not conducive to situations other than those akin to how Edgeware chooses his tenants- where he gets friends of the current tenants and/or personal recommendations from HR staff in multinational companies- who he in turn rewards with vouchers for their curation of his prospective tenants.

Its an indictment of the current regulatory regime in Ireland- that Edgeware's system works- and it does work. I can't hand over heart suggest that were I in Edgeware's situation I wouldn't do something similar- however, my choice would not to be in the sector at all, its a head wreck for everyone concerned.

Thats an interesting thought. Like Tripadvisor but for Tenants and Landlords.

The only problem is moderation. Like a lot of review sites, how do you verify the ratings. Did the Tenant get his Ma to give him 5 stars on the site. Or did someone give a bad review out of spite?

Dav010 · 28-09-2020 3:01pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Thats an interesting thought. Like Tripadvisor but for Tenants and Landlords.

The only problem is moderation. Like a lot of review sites, how do you verify the ratings. Did the Tenant get his Ma to give him 5 stars on the site. Or did someone give a bad review out of spite?

Defamation solicitors would be busy.

PommieBast · 28-09-2020 3:36pm

Dav010 wrote: »

firstly that HR would discuss an employee with the LL, and secondly that the person in HR knows anything about the employee beyond their job in the company. That can be gotten off a reference.

Not sure how common it is among smaller companies but many of the larger ones now have no reference policies. They'll confirm job title but that's it.

brisan · 28-09-2020 4:39pm

beauf wrote: »

You can't have big drops in the listed rent, the whole market falling, as posted in this thread, and no landlords reducing rent as also posted in this thread. Both of those things can't be true at the same time.

Landlord advertises property at 2k a month
Tells tenant to only pay 1900 a month ?
Tells tenant he can have a free month?
Do you not think these things are happening

beauf · 28-09-2020 4:46pm

brisan wrote: »

Landlord advertises property at 2k a month
Tells tenant to only pay 1900 a month ?
Tells tenant he can have a free month?
Do you not think these things are happening

I think, why not rent something cheaper, thats lists the rent correctly.

brisan · 28-09-2020 4:48pm

beauf wrote: »

I think, why not rent something cheaper, thats lists the rent correctly.

Maybe the property with the higher headline rent is a better property for the tenant

beauf · 28-09-2020 5:34pm

brisan wrote: »

Maybe the property with the higher headline rent is a better property for the tenant

Its just encouraging bad practice and punishing those who don't do the same.

Dav010 · 28-09-2020 5:37pm

PommieBast wrote: »

Not sure how common it is among smaller companies but many of the larger ones now have no reference policies. They'll confirm job title but that's it.

That’s my point, how edgeware thinks that you can phone up a HR Dept and get any info is difficult to believe, at most, a HR Dept reference usually extends only to job title and date, something an “amateur” LL can request from a prospective tenant.

Dav010 · 28-09-2020 5:40pm

brisan wrote: »

Landlord advertises property at 2k a month
Tells tenant to only pay 1900 a month ?
Tells tenant he can have a free month?
Do you not think these things are happening

It is difficult to quantify something you think happens, and then use it as evidence it does. We knew people were offering more than asking price prior to Covid, but analysis of rental rates still had to use advertised price.

Claw Hammer · 28-09-2020 6:06pm

brisan wrote: »

Landlord advertises property at 2k a month
Tells tenant to only pay 1900 a month ?
Tells tenant he can have a free month?
Do you not think these things are happening

There may be the occasional eejit of a landlord who would do it. What of it?

Pelezico · 28-09-2020 6:09pm

Claw Hammer wrote: »

There may be the occasional eejit of a landlord who would do it. What of it?

I wonder if the same landlord will be offering two months free rent next year.

Because we are entering hard times and events will fal.

The_Conductor · 28-09-2020 6:22pm

Dav010 wrote: »

That’s my point, how edgeware thinks that you can phone up a HR Dept and get any info is difficult to believe, at most, a HR Dept reference usually extends only to job title and date, something an “amateur” LL can request from a prospective tenant.

I read it more along the lines of he has cultivated a relationship with specific individuals in one or two companies- and rewards good leads from his contacts with gift cards. I didn't read it as being formally endorsed by the companies- rather an informal arrangement he has. Perhaps I misunderstood?

Dav010 · 28-09-2020 6:29pm

The_Conductor wrote: »

I read it more along the lines of he has cultivated a relationship with specific individuals in one or two companies- and rewards good leads from his contacts with gift cards. I didn't read it as being formally endorsed by the companies- rather an informal arrangement he has. Perhaps I misunderstood?

Contacting HR departments is what professional LLs who know what they are doing, do, apparently, whereas amateurs don’t do their research, so are more likely to get bad tenants.

What I find staggering is that any HR Dept would give information to a surreptitious caller, to claim it as something a band of LLs do, is bizarre.

mrslancaster · 28-09-2020 7:59pm

Dav010 wrote: »

Contacting HR departments is what professional LLs who know what they are doing, do, apparently, whereas amateurs don’t do their research, so are more likely to get bad tenants.

What I find staggering is that any HR Dept would give information to a surreptitious caller, to claim it as something a band of LLs do, is bizarre.

Agree with Dav010, I thought every organisation and data controller had to keep personal data secure and they're not allowed to pass it on to 3rd parties. I could be mistaken though. Surely any HR Dept that gives out personal details to a prospective landlord is in breach of GDPR? How would the HR Dept even know who the landlord is - they could be anyone.

cgcsb · 28-09-2020 8:23pm

This is hilarious. Any sort of HR dept that would dish out info to a person claiming to be an employee's landlord would quite quickly find themselves handing out hush money to said emplpyees to avoid the courts. Silly idea. The best way to assess a person's character is to meet them in person. Ask questions and observe how their body language is. It's not 100% cool proof and you'll have problems at some point.

Dublin - Significant reduction in rents coming?

Comments