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Socialist throws a smoothie on Varadkar

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    #722
    Junkyard Tom
    Registered Users Posts: 10,117 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    markodaly wrote: »
    Free-Trade exists

    Sure it does, as long as you observe complex structure of rules and regulations that create the conditions for 'free' trade.
    so why then did Cuba fail?

    I'd say the economic throttling it has been subject to has been the main reason. Wouldn't it be interesting to see how Cuba would have developed if the US wasn't effectively waging constant economic war on it?
    Isnt that my point?

    Yes, one I didn't disagree with, but you've included in the long list of tedious misrepresentations and stawman arguments you've attributed to me.
    Facsinating! I didn't mention anything about economic theory, but you can make such a judgement anyway in what I do and not believe in. Neither have I mentioned anything else about social issues, but hey you get to call me a 'consevative' as if you can then chalk it up as a 'win'. I know you don't have any argument left when you go off on that little strawman tangent of playing the man. What is a 'True Beleiver'? Define it.

    I know the type, it's the dogmatically-conservative-when-it-comes-to-the-economy sort. You can have all the 'personal freedom' you want but if you try to fuck with our business model, we will destroy you. If you look like you might provide an successful alternative example, we will destroy you.

    Did you ever wonder why vast Empires who espoused 'Free' Trade also had massive navies that would wreck a country if they didn't do what they were told?
    How can I be a True Believer in 'our' system (whatever that is) but at the same time, be a true believer in a Soviet system if I lived there?

    I've already explained that it's more to do with a person's personality traits, the system you've been born into is less important, you regurgitate all the liberal/capitalist orthodoxies with the conviction of a high priest because it's what you know, it's what makes you feel comfortable.


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    #723
    Lucifer31
    Registered Users Posts: 190 ✭✭Lucifer31


    Pathetic. Looks totally staged. We've all seen bad acting before, so it's easy to spot.


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    #724
    markodaly
    Registered Users Posts: 14,042 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Junkyard Tom wrote: »
    Sure it does,

    Ok, so Free-Trade does exist. Nice to know.

    I'd say the economic throttling it has been subject to has been the main reason. Wouldn't it be interesting to see how Cuba would have developed if the US wasn't effectively waging constant economic war on it?

    Not really, it would have failed, as all Communist states who follow a centrally planned economy, have failed in the past. Its a nice excuse though, but its odd that for Scoalists states to succeed and thrive they need to be able to trade freely with other states. :D:D:D:D
    Irony explosion.

    Why did the USSR fail? Was that the Americans fault too, or the classic, "they were not communist enough"

    I know the type, it's the dogmatically-conservative-when-it-comes-to-the-economy sort. You can have all the 'personal freedom' you want but if you try to fuck with our business model, we will destroy you. If you look like you might provide an successful alternative example, we will destroy you.

    I am glad, by my few utterences here, you can put me into a box and cast me as a 'type'. A great skill to have.

    You are projecting something I neither mentioned, condoned or advocated. How about taking some of your own advice about strawmanning?

    Did you ever wonder why vast Empires who espoused 'Free' Trade also had massive navies that would wreck a country if they didn't do what they were told?

    Does the EU have a massive Navy?
    Does Ireland, who is one of the most open economies in the world? Do you advocate that Ireland return to tariffs and protectionism ala 1930s and exit the EU? If not, why not. The answer to these questions will rubbish your faux outrage.

    Why does everything have to go back to the formation of the East India company circa 1600 with you? You need to get rid of that post-colonial chip on your shoulder.
    I've already explained that it's more to do with a person's personality traits, the system you've been born into is less important, you regurgitate all the liberal/capitalist orthodoxies with the conviction of a high priest because it's what you know, it's what makes you feel comfortable.

    Please show me where I regurgitated liberal/economic orthodoxies in this thread.
    Just quote me once.

    I think you are full of it, you know it, but hide behind the strawmanning of anyone who is critical of your love of the USSR.


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    #725
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,944 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    We don't live in a free trade society, none of us do, all markets exist with some sort of political interaction, this can have both negative and positive consequences, but our so called free market ideologies are beginning to fail, possibly collapse, for all humans, including the wealthy, and we ve decided, the best thing to do is argue over some old ideologies that were equally sh1t, it ll be interesting to see what happens when these humans realise, there's other forms of capitalism!


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    #726
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users Posts: 14,364 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    We don't live in a free trade society, none of us do, all markets exist with some sort of political interaction, this can have both negative and positive consequences, but our so called free market ideologies are beginning to fail, possibly collapse, for all humans, including the wealthy, and we ve decided, the best thing to do is argue over some old ideologies that were equally sh1t, it ll be interesting to see what happens when these humans realise, there's other forms of capitalism!

    A proper social democracy is best. Despite its flaws, Ireland is closer to social democracy than any other system.


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    #727
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,944 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Professor Moriarty wrote: »
    A proper social democracy is best. Despite its flaws, Ireland is closer to social democracy than any other system.

    agree to a point, but strongly disagree in another way, our interactions with fdi, shows, we arent really a social democracy, my own belief is, we re actually, 'an erratic, complex and dysfunctional form of plutocracy, but operating under the guise of democracy', but our nearest neighbors are much further down the road than ourselves, we need to change things slightly, in the hope of preventing becoming just like them


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    #728
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users Posts: 14,364 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    agree to a point, but strongly disagree in another way, our interactions with fdi, shows, we arent really a social democracy, my own belief is, we re actually, 'an erratic, complex and dysfunctional form of plutocracy, but operating under the guise of democracy', but our nearest neighbors are much further down the road than ourselves, we need to change things slightly, in the hope of preventing becoming just like them

    I do think Irish society has social democratic principles at its core and always had. Whether or which, A crucial difference between ourselves and the UK is our voting systems. It's why we are very unlikely to go down the road of having to choose between handing absolute power to either a Corbyn or a Johnson. And all that flows from such a decision.


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    #729
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,944 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Professor Moriarty wrote: »
    I do think Irish society has social democratic principles at its core and always had. Whether or which, A crucial difference between ourselves and the UK is our voting systems. It's why we are very unlikely to go down the road of having to choose between handing absolute power to either a Corbyn or a Johnson. And all that flows from such a decision.

    yea i agree, these principles are very strong, but i suspect if we continue on our current path, this could radically change, and very quickly to, the young are angry, and rightfully so, and their armed, and are showing this in many ways, including in regards voting outcomes. i do think our political system is becoming stuck, in a similar but different way compared to countries such as the uk and the us, we re at a tricky moment, lets hope we dont go full retard, as our presidential election showed!


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    #730
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users Posts: 14,364 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    yea i agree, these principles are very strong, but i suspect if we continue on our current path, this could radically change, and very quickly to, the young are angry, and rightfully so, and their armed, and are showing this in many ways, including in regards voting outcomes. i do think our political system is becoming stuck, in a similar but different way compared to countries such as the uk and the us, we re at a tricky moment, lets hope we dont go full retard, as our presidential election showed!

    It depends on who you choose to believe. Here's hoping people aren't abandoning proper journalism and critical thinking in favour of social media one-liners.


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    #731
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,944 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Professor Moriarty wrote: »
    It depends on who you choose to believe. Here's hoping people aren't abandoning proper journalism and critical thinking in favour of social media one-liners.

    absolutely, unfortunately, the world of journalism is in serious trouble, and critical thinking seems to be in serious short supply, many seem to be tending towards the buffon


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    #732
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users Posts: 26,282 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    Lucifer31 wrote: »
    Pathetic. Looks totally staged. We've all seen bad acting before, so it's easy to spot.

    The classic “it wasnt real socialism “ “it wasnt a real beverage throwing”


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    #733
    Junkyard Tom
    Registered Users Posts: 10,117 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    markodaly wrote: »
    Not really, it would have failed

    This is exactly what I'm talking about when I say deeply conservative 'it would have failed'. Baseless conjecture and a deep-seated desire to not have anyone step out of line.
    Why did the USSR fail? Was that the Americans fault too, or the classic

    It failed for many reasons.
    Does the EU have a massive Navy? Does Ireland, who is one of the most open economies in the world?

    The EU has several navies and it is largely under the protection of NATO. But you are right it is less important now and the EU uses its soft power rather than cracking skulls.
    Do you advocate that Ireland return to tariffs and protectionism ala 1930s and exit the EU? If not, why not. The answer to these questions will rubbish your faux outrage.

    No, this type of thing horrifies me. Again you are tediously adopting positions for people and arguing against them. You may as well be arguing with yourself.

    giphy.webp
    Please show me where I regurgitated liberal/economic orthodoxies in this thread.
    Just quote me once.

    I have comprehensively demonstrated to you how you have my views wrong. Here's a challenge to you, link me to one post of yours where you've been critical of our corporate/neoliberal system..

    I'll wait.


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    #734
    feargale
    Registered Users Posts: 8,636 ✭✭✭feargale


    How did this thread move from discussing an attack on democracy (however pathetic) to discussion of the relative merits of Cuba v. Western type democracies?


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    #735
    markodaly
    Registered Users Posts: 14,042 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Junkyard Tom wrote: »
    This is exactly what I'm talking about when I say deeply conservative 'it would have failed'. Baseless conjecture and a deep-seated desire to not have anyone step out of line.

    Baseless conjecture? So, tell me where a Communist or hardline socialist society with a centrally planned economy has not failed?
    Can you give one example?

    My opinion is based on the best evidence available, while yours is based on pure belief and hope, kinda like religion really.


    It failed for many reasons.

    Do you want to elaborate no that? Or is it too uncomfortable for you? :pac:
    The EU has several navies and it is largely under the protection of NATO. But you are right it is less important now and the EU uses its soft power rather than cracking skulls.

    OK, so in the 21st centuary navies really do not matter when it comes to free-trade.
    Ireland is not a member of NATO and has a tiny tiny Navy, yet is a very open economy that gets its wealth from Globalisation and Free-Trade.
    Therefore your theory is redundant.


    No, this type of thing horrifies me.

    OK, so you are horrified by protectionism and tarrrifts the marred the 1930's up to the 1970's. Now in an era of free-trade and globalisation, you will concede the fact that the average Irish person gets a well built car cheaper than before, which is a benefit.
    Again you are tediously adopting positions for people and arguing against them. You may as well be arguing with yourself.

    Not at all, I am just trying to pin down what your own beliefs are.

    You admit that Ireland joining the EEC was a good thing and we should remain in the EU at all cost, yet on the other hand you display a soft nostaliga for the USSR , Marxism of old and you don't like the concept of Free-Trade, which is one of the reasons why Ireland went from an economic backwater to a rich liberal EU country.
    I think you are just confused.



    I have comprehensively demonstrated to you how you have my views wrong. Here's a challenge to you, link me to one post of yours where you've been critical of our corporate/neoliberal system..

    You want me to do your work for you now?
    It is your claim, you back it up and yes, I have been critical of it at times, go find those posts and you will know that your accusations are for naught.


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    #736
    markodaly
    Registered Users Posts: 14,042 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Professor Moriarty wrote: »
    A proper social democracy is best. Despite its flaws, Ireland is closer to social democracy than any other system.

    This is true. Most Western countries are social democracies really, even the US, which has social security, medicare and Medicaid.

    Its just some countries re-distribute more wealth than others, like Sweden or Finland.
    Some countries also are just badly run and spend way too much to feather the nests of a few, like in Italy, France or Greece.

    Ireland would be somewhere in the middle. We have very generous pensions and social welfare by OECD norms yet spend **** all on other things that matter, like Early Childcare Education or Public Transport/Bike Lanes.
    In other words, we give too much cash to people to spend how they want it rather then using that to improve lives of people by investing in services.

    E.g. Child benefit that goes to the parents pocket, rather then putting that into good affordable Early Childcare education.

    But, and this is the crucial thing, that is how WE want it. We want that cash in our pocket. It is why we have some of the highest paid teachers in the world, working in prefabs with crappy equipment. It is why we have some of the highest paid police in the world, driving banged up fiesta's.
    The money IS there, its just spent poorly.

    The ASTI never strikes over poor equipment or small classrooms, but they often strike to get better pay as another example.


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    #737
    Masala
    Registered Users Posts: 3,463 ✭✭✭Masala


    So.... has she been caught and charged with something yet?..


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    #738
    happyoutscan
    Registered Users Posts: 5,986 ✭✭✭happyoutscan


    Masala wrote: »
    So.... has she been caught and charged with something yet?..

    This is what I wanna know.


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    #739
    Junkyard Tom
    Registered Users Posts: 10,117 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    markodaly wrote: »
    Baseless conjecture? So, tell me where a Communist or hardline socialist society with a centrally planned economy has not failed? Can you give one example?

    Britain/USA 1940 to 1945. Centrally planned, ramped up industrial output, no gulags, leveraged collectivism, and defeated the Axis powers. ;)
    Do you want to elaborate no that? Or is it too uncomfortable for you? :pac:

    Oh I'm very glad it failed. As I have demonstrated, if you and I both lived in the USSR your authoritarianism/conservatism would have served you well while my anti-authoritarianism would have had you ratting me up to the Commissar for wrong-think.
    OK, so in the 21st centuary navies really do not matter when it comes to free-trade.Ireland is not a member of NATO and has a tiny tiny Navy, yet is a very open economy that gets its wealth from Globalisation and Free-Trade.

    We're ostensibly neutral and the RAF police our skies. If I had my way we would drop the sham of neutrality, develop a half-decent Navy/Air Force, and we'd be part of a European defence pact.
    OK, so you are horrified by protectionism and tarrifs the marred the 1930's up to the 1970's. Now in an era of free-trade and globalisation, you will concede the fact that the average Irish person gets a well built car cheaper than before, which is a benefit.

    It was one of the dumbest things to try to protect. Protectionism isn't always wrong, the Japanese and Koreans grew massive global businesses out of companies that were protected. The Brazilians and Canadians built Aerospace industries (Bombardier and Embraer). Further reading.
    Not at all, I am just trying to pin down what your own beliefs are.

    Do what works. You don't have to like the game but if you're playing try to play it well.
    You admit that Ireland joining the EEC was a good thing and we should remain in the EU at all cost

    Yes, the EEC/EU has been brilliant for us all-in-all. The reduction on dependence on trade with Britain has been critical and our soft power as part of the EU has been crucial in pushing back against the bunch of pricks in the Tory party.
    yet on the other hand you display a soft nostaliga for the USSR , Marxism of old and you don't like the concept of Free-Trade, which is one of the reasons why Ireland went from an economic backwater to a rich liberal EU country.

    What you're saying here is 'you demonstrate wrong-think and that is intolerable'. Do what works. We don't write off the Autobahns because the Nazis built them.
    go find those posts

    I don't need to, you do a fine job of demonstrating just how intolerant/rigid your thinking is when it comes to this stuff.


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    #740
    stockshares
    Registered Users Posts: 2,758 ✭✭✭stockshares


    Lucifer31 wrote: »
    Pathetic. Looks totally staged. We've all seen bad acting before, so it's easy to spot.


    It does, but staged by who?

    They could have easily caught her but didn't try.


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    #741
    blinding
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,466 ✭✭✭blinding


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    I would absolutely take freedom of speech and not potentially being gulagd for thought crimes over trains and an assigned job. The atrocities of socialism far outweigh any of the proclaimed positives
    Nobody kills more Communists that Communists and they do kill a lot of Communists = = Strongly suggests something seriously wrong with that Ideology ! !:eek:


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    #742
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,944 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    blinding wrote:
    Nobody kills more Communists that Communists and they do kill a lot of Communists = = Strongly suggests something seriously wrong with that Ideology ! !


    Something seriously wrong with our most predominant ideology also, so called free market libertarianism, it to seems to be killing many, globally, there's also very few communists on this planet, definitely far more free market libertarians about the place


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    #743
    blinding
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,466 ✭✭✭blinding


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    Something seriously wrong with our most predominant ideology also, so called free market libertarianism, it to seems to be killing many, globally, there's also very few communists on this planet, definitely far more free market libertarians about the place
    How could there be Communists when the Communists killed so many Communists :eek::eek:


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    #744
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,944 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    blinding wrote: »
    How could there be Communists when the Communists killed so many Communists :eek::eek:

    oh theres communist's about the place alright, and socialists, and Marxists, few and far between though


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    #745
    blinding
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,466 ✭✭✭blinding


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    oh theres communist's about the place alright, and socialists, and Marxists, few and far between though
    Tis when they get power, thats when the Communists start killing one another ~ ~ Ironically enough usually about who gets to be the Elite Communists :eek:


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    #746
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,944 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    blinding wrote: »
    Tis when they get power, thats when the Communists start killing one another ~ ~ Ironically enough usually about who gets to be the Elite Communists :eek:

    disagree there, theres fcuk all of those about, along with the others i mentioned, so i wouldnt be worrying about them at all, they really are few and far between, i dont know any irish communist's, but there probably is literally one or two in the whole country. id be more concerned about other utopics, such as free market libertarians etc, they been in power for decades now, on both the political left and right, and the outcomes are very obvious now.


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    #747
    blinding
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,466 ✭✭✭blinding


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    disagree there, theres fcuk all of those about, along with the others i mentioned, so i wouldnt be worrying about them at all, they really are few and far between, i dont know any irish communist's, but there probably is literally one or two in the whole country. id be more concerned about other utopics, such as free market libertarians etc, they been in power for decades now, on both the political left and right, and the outcomes are very obvious now.

    Mao killed Millions and Millions and Millions of Communists.

    Stalin= Ditto

    Pol Pot = Ditto

    I could go on = Ditto.

    Nobody kills Communists like Communists ! ! It is probably the thing Communists do best ! !


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    #748
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,944 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    blinding wrote: »
    Mao killed Millions and Millions and Millions of Communists.

    Stalin= Ditto

    Pol Pot = Ditto

    I could go on = Ditto.

    Nobody kills Communists like Communists ! ! It is probably the thing Communists do best ! !

    where are the communist's now?


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    #749
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Professor Moriarty wrote: »
    You know nothing about the Tory party, or Fine Gael, or both so.

    I know FG are selfish and at best incompetent while erring on the side of private business. That's right wing/Tory.
    The fiscally conservative thing is a myth.


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    #750
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    where are the communist's now?

    Some rando threw a smoothie in Tory boy's face. So....


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    #751
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,944 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Bowie wrote: »
    I know FG are selfish and at best incompetent while erring on the side of private business. That's right wing/Tory.
    The fiscally conservative thing is a myth.

    id actually somewhat disagree here, theyve become blinded by their own ideologies, baring in mind, the political left have become blinded by the same ideologies


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