Is the Leaving Certificate more of a memory test than intelligence or aptitude?

Earthhorse · 09-09-2020 11:21AM

kowloon wrote: »

The people saying it's a measure of putting in hard work are forgetting that continuous assessment is a superior way of measuring that. When people are learning entire essays to just spew out in the exam it's a memory exercise and not much more. A good memory has its uses and is essential in some jobs, but it's not the only factor in figuring out things for yourself and it gets pretty ridiculous when it comes to something like appreciating literature.

The problem with continuous assessment (depending on how it's implemented) is that it can be subject to bias. To go back to the example of my English result; I got very few As for my work from my teacher but got an A in the exam. And my teacher was good and didn't have a grudge against me or anything.

One good thing about our current system is that it's ruthlessly objective.

Wibbs wrote: »

Yep, the "In our day" vibe can be strong in such discussions. Another aspect is as you get older(to a certain point) the exams can seem easier compared to when you were 17 or whatever. You know more(or should). Having looked at recent papers a few years back I would be pretty sure I'd get a way better leaving cert than I actually did(mostly woeful, with some outliers). However I reckon I'd get a better leaving cert than I did if I did the papers of the 80's when I did it first.

Yeah, I took a look at the Group Cert paper someone put up there and it does seem very broad alright but the questions don't seem that taxing.

My main problem was school bored me to tears most of the time. I didn't go to university and I suspect that would have been similar or worse just doing one subject. My head jumps all over the place and doesn't stay interested for very long. About six months per subject/interest, though I can revisit them.

Interesting. One of the things I liked about the Leaving was the variety of subjects as, like yourself, I get bored pretty quickly.

On the subject of hard work I do think people underestimate it. I think I'm pretty good at most things; when I pick up something at first people are often impressed with how quickly I take to it and imagine I've a brought future in the field. But I often get bored and don't put in the effort.

I'm a self taught programmer and whilst my ability with abstract reasoning allowed me to coast for a good while I've learned that probably the most important trait you can have as a programmer is resilience. You have to keep chipping away at problems until they finally crumble before you. Hard work is often underestimated but those who are struggling because they imagine the answers came to everyone else without any effort at all.

jimmycrackcorm · 09-09-2020 11:35AM

A friend of mine is a lecturer who told me that the level of maths that new students starting their course have is beyond shocking.

So much so that they had to introduce a fundamental maths classes to the course.

09-09-2020 11:37AM

The leaving cert does not define anyone.

The vast majority do fine in life settle into something

On the memory thing, one of my sisters who would be no slouch academically can recite sections of Shakespeare verbatim 30 + years after leaving school, and its the same with my husband so I suspect there must be some connection between memory and academic ability.

Wanderer78 · 09-09-2020 11:38AM

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

A friend of mine is a lecturer who told me that the level of maths that new students starting their course have is beyond shocking.

So much so that they had to introduce a fundamental maths classes to the course.

maybe society is moving beyond our need for such understanding of maths, i personally really liked it, but i have accept my brain is designed for it, some simply arent, and thats okay, theyre still needed, i.e. is our system truly keeping up with societies actual needs?

Wanderer78 · 09-09-2020 11:39AM

mariaalice wrote: »

The leaving cert does not define anyone.

The vast majority do fine in life settle into something

On the memory thing, one of my sisters who would be no slouch academically can recite sections of Shakespeare verbatim 30 + years after leaving school, and its the same with my husband so I suspect there must be some connection between memory and academic ability.

...or is our system designed to benefit those with such abilities?

09-09-2020 11:48AM

Wanderer78 wrote: »

...or is our system designed to benefit those with such abilities?

Well yeah, but do you want to see a medical consultant who has a scientific evidenced-based degree followed by years of research on their subject, would you want the mec and elect in a new A-rated house designed, manufactured, and installed by someone who had the education and learning to do so?

It is all very well saying emotional intelligence and the like should be taken into account but real life is not like that.

Wanderer78 · 09-09-2020 11:53AM

mariaalice wrote: »

Well yeah, but do you want to see a medical consultant who has a scientific evidenced-based degree followed by years of research on their subject, would you want the mec and elect in a new A-rated house designed, manufactured, and installed by someone who had the education and learning to do so?

It is all very well saying emotional intelligence and the like should be taken into account but real life is not like that.

interesting point, economist pippa malmgren advises high level corporate ceo's, she regularly advises them to higher people with little or no third level qualifications and people on the spectrum, shes gets funny looks id imagine, but she is a very well respected advisor, and has good justifications for giving such advise.

obviously there are and should be limitations to such decisions, as you ve outlined, but......

again, theres different forms of intelligence, not just those mentioned

Ficheall · 09-09-2020 12:50PM

Earthhorse wrote: »

How is that a ponzi scheme?

Apologies, that's probably more relevant to postgraduate study, and the huge amount of research students and the noticeably smaller number of academic jobs available thereafter.
This is more pronounced in some fields than others, and can filter down to undergrads in some cases.

PhDs are, largely, not very beneficial unless you end up in academia, and there are nowhere near as many jobs as phd positions. If you end up having to make the move to industry, you'll find that you would have been better off working in the field than acquiring an in-depth knowledge of some obscure research topic.

And while some fields, such as STEM do lead to industry opportunities, others' sole outlet is further teaching. And if you want to teach your class on grecian urns, you need there to be demand, so you'll teach another ten students to keep your job, and then they have a similar problem. Oversimplifying, obviously, but that would be the general ponzi scheme notion.

Eleven Benevolent Elephants · 09-09-2020 01:05PM

I just watched a broadcast from Dáil Éireann.
Micháel Martin spoke for a few minutes in Irish. I got a B1 in HL Irish but he might as well have been speaking Chinese.

I can barely speak or understand the language.
Much of our exam is based on learning off pages of essays and prose and poetry, you might as well be learning pages of Swahili for all you understand of it.

My standard of German and French was already higher than my Irish by the time I hit the JUNIOR cert, despite having done the former for only 3 years and the latter for 11.

take everything · 09-09-2020 01:11PM

BrianD3 wrote: »

You are right - I wasn't in (or in some cases even close to) the 99th percentile in all the individual aptitudes. 99th percentile for a few of them but only 42nd percentile in abstract reasoning.

The reason I mentioned 99th percentile in my first post is because that is what I was in for VR + NR which was the only overall percentile that I received. Also, according to the test documentation, VR + NR relates to "general scholastic aptitude" and "mental ability" on a traditional test of intelligence.

If you received a percentile that took account of all of the individual tests, you got something that i didn't.

If you didn't and just averaged your individual percentiles and got a percentile of 95, IMO that massively underestimates your performance.

E.g. if someone is in the 60th percentile in abstract and the 90th in verbal, it would be wrong to assume that they are in the 75th percentile for AR + VR. It is likely to be higher than that.

Hi Brian.

Appreciate your candour.
No I did the 7 with individual scores, the same as yourself.

With 99% in VR and NR, a couple of other 99%s and all others (except one) in the nineties.
So average of 95% percentile (which I probably should stop quoting since as you say it underestimates the result).

Ironically the lowest (80%) result for me was in mechanical reasoning, yet I'm doing a course where mechanical reasoning is paramount because I'm naturally interested in this. Weird how interests and aptitudes intersect.

As you say the VR and NR correlates with ability to do well scholastically (absorb lectures easily etc).

Yet me being the anomaly of anomalies that I am (and eternal disappointment to myself and others) fcuked up in college exams a lot.

Whereas, say, my sisters who are high achievers in their own right, didn't do anywhere near as well on the same aptitude test and got every exam in college and went on to have nice successful careers.

I do not begrudge them one bit (quite the opposite in fact, I love seeing people do well and fulfilling their potential) but as Wibbs says, it's always the moderately well able, not the super able who will go furthest in life.

It's actually massively frustrating for me knowing this and wrecks my head. The sense of disappointment for myself is massive.

09-09-2020 06:20PM

Wanderer78 wrote: »

when the system fails, you ll find many of these individuals basically arent functioning very well, this is very evident with those on the dole and in the prison system, it manifests itself as complex social and psychological issues

The 'system' is there to educate those that wish to be educated.

No one is on the dole because the education system failed them. No one is on jail because the education system didn't provide them with an education.

Just how far will people go to avoid placing personal responsibility where it belongs?

Education is free. The staff and facilities are there. If due to a variety of reasons, the students doesn't turn up or wish to learn, that's not the systems fault.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 09-09-2020 06:29PM

Eleven Benevolent Elephants wrote: »

Much of the Leaving Certificate is based on rote learning, prose and poetry for Irish and learning off blocks of essays in the hope that one of those themes might come up, even for the oral exam you were already given several cards with text, one of which was guaranteed to come up in the oral when I did my LC in 2008.

Since I did my LC in 2008, I have checked some of the chemistry, physics and maths papers from subsequent years and in my opinion, they are massively dumbed down from when I did the exams in 2008. Project Maths is a disaster btw.

I went to college (where I did physics and chemistry and a lot of mathematics modules). I remember a girl in our first year who got over 500 points with a B3 or something like that in Physics which gained her entry to the course, the requirements at the time were 300 ish points and a C3 in HL in any science.

I remember her being all smug that she could cram for the exams weeks before and sail through them. Our exams were open book for many of the modules, our lecturers and tutors focused on our understanding of the material rather than rote memorisation. Unfortunately, this girl, even though she did swimmingly in her LC, had to repeat her first year and failed it again and eventually dropped out to change courses and did psychology instead. I still keep in touch with her, she's excelling in her career and now is a social worker.

The LC failed her and led her to believe that because she achieved such good results that she could automatically do any course. I barely met my minimum requirements and I was constantly put down by my teachers telling me I won't amount to anything. Now I work in a niche science field happy as a pig in sh1t.

The LC is not fit for purpose IMO.

All the 500+ points people in my year did really well in college and their careers. In my view, it's a good marker of diligence and putting the head down which is a huge part of any course of study. It's mostly just perspiration. There are always things you just need to learn. Like I made sure I actually understood the Krebs cycle in college but I did also have to just learn all the different enzyme names that were involved. That part was just rote learning because, well, you just have to remember them.

I find the need people have to put down those who well in the LC a little sad.

valoren · 09-09-2020 07:12PM

It's a one size fits all exam. It's a system to get through thousands of students annually so it has to be systematic to allow markers to get through the workload. It's easier to mark exams within a closed system as opposed to an open ended subjective manner because they'd take forever to mark the papers. It's all fine to read about the lofty goals of the Leaving cycle (i.e. To develop an appreciation for the work of Shakespeare....) but we all know it's about grades, marks and points and any teacher who is clued in will zero in on the marking scheme particularly in 6th year i.e. if the question on Othello is about how Irony is used as a dramatic device then this is the "A" answer and WHY it is an A answer is detailed to the class. To that end, actual intelligence in the student would be to determine what the marking scheme is, how it is applied for each subject and then organise their preparation and study time intelligently and efficiently to achieve maximimum points. Being a system you just have to game that system to be successful. I guess the process of that in itself is a good thing for instilling discipline, goal setting etc and is a foundation for their future.

09-09-2020 08:47PM

https://wicklowsudburyschool.com/

bobbyy gee · 09-09-2020 08:48PM

i got all honor A,s but i have poor memory.

Ficheall · 09-09-2020 09:22PM

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

I find the need people have to put down those who well in the LC a little sad.

Who's been putting them down?

09-09-2020 09:30PM

mariaalice wrote: »

https://wicklowsudburyschool.com/

I have very mixed feelings about that

How does your community handle bullying?

Like at most other schools, bullying is taken very seriously at Wicklow Sudbury. But unlike most other schools, in a Sudbury school, the adults won’t automatically take care of it. Instead we will encourage students to use the student-led justice system. This has been shown to be very empowering for the “bullied” student, who learns to take care of him or herself against any bully in the future and is less likely to see themselves as a victim. And it is often a transformative experience for the “bully” who gets firm but respectful treatment from his peers.

Lord of the flies feel from that paragraph

Strumms · 09-09-2020 09:48PM

I’ve always held the belief that continuous assessment should form the greater influence on a result or grade rather than ‘just’ a one time, sit down three hour exam.

You might have a brilliant aptitude for Maths/Geography/Biology but a really average aptitude for performing in the one off sit down exam scenario...

Be it nerves, performance under pressure, unlucky to feel unwell on the day or lead up...

You want to enable in giving a grade to a student that you enable them to prove to you how much they know, nothing more... the pressure of 100% of that being on a onetime three hour performance isn’t right I don’t think....

Trim exams maybe to 80 minutes, let that form say 40% of their grade, continuous assessment 60%....

The continuous assessment to be I don’t know say three tests via multiple state issued papers per subject...A,B,C,D

Smacruairi · 09-09-2020 10:00PM

I'm always perplexed as to why continuous assessment is seen as the silver bullet.

1. If you think grade inflation is bad now, wait till you see it when they only are assessed on little chunks.
2. Who corrects it, because the DES certainly don't want to pay examiners all year round, and if you want teachers to do it, you're fundamentally changing the nature of the student teacher relationship from advocate to judge.
3. The lc is undeniably stressful for students at the end of 6th year. But imagine how they would feel if every third Friday they had a project or an essay that would decide if they did their dream course.

Many more reasons but just like people thinking the leaving cert is all about memory, continuous assessment is also too facile.

The Lost Sheep · 09-09-2020 10:31PM

Smacruairi wrote: »

I'm always perplexed as to why continuous assessment is seen as the silver bullet.

1. If you think grade inflation is bad now, wait till you see it when they only are assessed on little chunks.
2. Who corrects it, because the DES certainly don't want to pay examiners all year round, and if you want teachers to do it, you're fundamentally changing the nature of the student teacher relationship from advocate to judge.
3. The lc is undeniably stressful for students at the end of 6th year. But imagine how they would feel if every third Friday they had a project or an essay that would decide if they did their dream course.

Many more reasons but just like people thinking the leaving cert is all about memory, continuous assessment is also too facile.

Its not the silver bullet but there needs to be a change from 100% exams.
Teachers should be involved along with external examiners overseeing whats being graded.
Id loved to have had more continous assessment even if it was once a month rather than all of the grades based on 2-3 hours of an exam in June.
Excluding the 2 languages i did in LC i only had practical work in two other subjects.
Continuous assessments works very well in majority of third level courses so why shouldnt it work in second level?

Strumms · 09-09-2020 10:55PM

Smacruairi wrote: »

I'm always perplexed as to why continuous assessment is seen as the silver bullet.

1. If you think grade inflation is bad now, wait till you see it when they only are assessed on little chunks.
2. Who corrects it, because the DES certainly don't want to pay examiners all year round, and if you want teachers to do it, you're fundamentally changing the nature of the student teacher relationship from advocate to judge.
3. The lc is undeniably stressful for students at the end of 6th year. But imagine how they would feel if every third Friday they had a project or an essay that would decide if they did their dream course.

Many more reasons but just like people thinking the leaving cert is all about memory, continuous assessment is also too facile.

It’s NOT a silver bullet. It’s simply a fairer and more accurate manner of assessing competence and assigning a truer grade.

You study your rocks off for two years for your leaving, scoring anywhere between 83 - 92% with regularity in class exams. Studying hard continuously and putting in the effort.... but what will decide your future ? One three hour assessment....

It will impact what college... what course... your earning potential for years, fûck it your happiness and wellbeing.... all on that one 3 hour exam... if it goes to shiît on the day, brain fades, nerves kick in, a touch of a head cold ... ??? TOUGH !!!!

Lionel Messi didn’t qualify as the best footballer ever by virtue of a performance in one game, one season, one tournament.... because he has shown brilliance and consistency over a duration to achieve... why should we be judging and evaluating students, handing them their future based on what they do in 3 fûckin hours ????

It’s BS... quite frankly.

Smacruairi · 09-09-2020 11:04PM

Strumms wrote: »

It’s NOT a silver bullet. It’s simply a fairer and more accurate manner of assessing competence and assigning a truer grade.

You study your rocks off for two years for your leaving, scoring anywhere between 83 - 92% with regularity in class exams. Studying hard continuously and putting in the effort.... but what will decide your future ? One three hour assessment....

It will impact what college... what course... your earning potential for years, fûck it your happiness and wellbeing.... all on that one 3 hour exam... if it goes to shiît on the day, brain fades, nerves kick in, a touch of a head cold ... ??? TOUGH !!!!

Lionel Messi didn’t qualify as the best footballer ever by virtue of a performance in one game, one season, one tournament.... because he has shown brilliance and consistency over a duration to achieve... why should we be judging and evaluating students, handing them their future based on what they do in 3 fûckin hours ????

It’s BS... quite frankly.

Don't get me wrong, I think coursework etc is needed. But the list of questions I mentioned are just the tip of the sword, and neither posts seemed to really address them at all.

Strumms · 09-09-2020 11:16PM

Ok, I’ll address point by point....

If the grades may be inflated, which I agree could happen, there needs to be audits on the marking by the department, provable marks, teachers not marking accurately and inflating scores ? Sanctions...

Corrected by teachers. Most teachers give students say monthly tests. It’s very much within their skillset.

Pressure on students ? No, because they know if they fûck up, next Exam is a chance to make amends, the leaving doesn’t allow this. One time, one shot.

Smacruairi · 09-09-2020 11:22PM

Strumms wrote: »

Ok, I’ll address point by point....

If the grades may be inflated, which I agree could happen, there needs to be audits on the marking by the department, provable marks, teachers not marking accurately and inflating scores ? Sanctions...

Corrected by teachers. Most teachers give students say monthly tests. It’s very much within their skillset.

Pressure on students ? No, because they know if they fûck up, next Exam is a chance to make amends, the leaving doesn’t allow this. One time, one shot.

Well to quickly reply to your points, and again not being argumentative, just answering..

The ncca looks at state exams, not the DES. So you'd need more money to hire examiners on a year long basis. Also it takes 2 months of correcting over the summer, including your audits, for one set of papers. Now look at that on a monthly basis... All through the year... So is marking now a full time job?

Within skillset but when Johnnys mum rings up because you marked too hard... Or he wasn't feeling well.. You always had it in for him....then you would have grinds schools marking for fun to increase their fees etc.

If they **** up they move on to the next? If you're looking for the top points you can't funk up even once, that's the whole point. Around the time of orals and project work, kids go into shut dowm mode. Just look at thr junior cycle and cbas....

I agree with your sentiment, but from real time experience, there are far far far more issues with what you propose. Not a reason not to try but it's not that simple.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 09-09-2020 11:24PM

Ficheall wrote: »

Who's been putting them down?

These threads always have disparaging comments towards those who do well, either directly or indirectly. Even the OP indulges in it.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 09-09-2020 11:28PM

Strumms wrote: »

It’s NOT a silver bullet. It’s simply a fairer and more accurate manner of assessing competence and assigning a truer grade.

You study your rocks off for two years for your leaving, scoring anywhere between 83 - 92% with regularity in class exams. Studying hard continuously and putting in the effort.... but what will decide your future ? One three hour assessment....

It will impact what college... what course... your earning potential for years, fûck it your happiness and wellbeing.... all on that one 3 hour exam... if it goes to shiît on the day, brain fades, nerves kick in, a touch of a head cold ... ??? TOUGH !!!!

Lionel Messi didn’t qualify as the best footballer ever by virtue of a performance in one game, one season, one tournament.... because he has shown brilliance and consistency over a duration to achieve... why should we be judging and evaluating students, handing them their future based on what they do in 3 fûckin hours ????

It’s BS... quite frankly.

If you are doing that well in class consistently, you’d be pretty unlucky for that not to be of enormous help to you in the final exam.

Strumms · 09-09-2020 11:30PM

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

If you are doing that well in class consistently, you’d be pretty unlucky for that not to be of enormous help to you in the final exam.

Very much so in THAT example, more borderline cases however...

batman75 · 09-09-2020 11:32PM

My recollection was that the LC was a recall test than a true measure of intelligence or aptitude. I would be more in favour of continual assessment which measures a student's ability to show comprehension rather than regurgitation. Yes memory recall has merit but ultimately you want someone to demonstrate that they understand the syllabus and can demonstrate that understanding in a clear logical fashion.

Strumms · 09-09-2020 11:34PM

Smacruairi wrote: »

Well to quickly reply to your points, and again not being argumentative, just answering..

I agree with your sentiment, but from real time experience, there are far far far more issues with what you propose. Not a reason not to try but it's not that simple.

To make it happen I’m guessing firstly it never will but it would take just too much cooperation and ‘buy in’ between political people, unions, school principals, teachers, parents.... I’d say in fact students and teachers would be the easy sell. More I think, zero chance.

Smacruairi · 09-09-2020 11:46PM

Strumms wrote: »

To make it happen I’m guessing firstly it never will but it would take just too much cooperation and ‘buy in’ between political people, unions, school principals, teachers, parents.... I’d say in fact students and teachers would be the easy sell. More I think, zero chance.

Yup. I just think continuous assessment is just too easily manipulated. Again, look at the hpat,was meant to be a measure of intelligence for med students... Now there are study courses for it!

Also, and totally off topic, but when people float these ideas, they always think that teachers have an actual voice (we don't.. Just look at the calculated grades fiasco), or unions scupper things (again, look at what the asti warned... And here we are with legal cases being prepared after the lc). The almighty euro rules education, nothing else.

My silver bullet answer that is in no way thought out is tu have each college have their own entrance exams separate from normal schooling. They have tarnished secondary school for too long.

Is the Leaving Certificate more of a memory test than intelligence or aptitude?

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