Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail Discussion

ezstreet5 · 08-09-2020 09:05AM

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Are you saying Oranmore station probably wouldn't have been built but for WRC Phase 1? What are you basing that on?

Yes. That is exactly the case. Based on conversations had at the time with a few politicians involved in negotiations, Oranmore was a difficult sell against the backdrop of austerity. That may have contributed to the less-than-ideal location that someone else on here mentioned. They needed the cheapest and easiest location (a greenfield site about 1 lm west of the original station) to make it happen at all.

And of course it is part of the WRC project, as evidenced by IE's cover letter for the planning application (see Galway Co. Planning Ref. No: 101877):

21st December 2010

Limerick to Galway Railway Project - Oranmore Station

Dear Secretary,

Please find enclosed the planning application for Oranmore Railway Station which is proposed as part of the Limerick to Galway Railway Line and the Western Rail Corridor Project.

The Government through Iarnród Éireann are continuing to make considerable investment in the Limerick to Galway Route as part of the Western Rail Corridor Project. This project is part of Transport 21 and is part of the first phase of the reintroduction of services along the full Western Rail Corridor.

[...]

Muckyboots · 08-09-2020 09:05AM

westtip wrote: »

From what I recall of his comments on the GLUAS it was very much lets get the buses sorted out first, the greenways, and then in the whos knows when future the GLUAS, he referenced some small city in France if I recall and said a phrase like "who knows maybe in the future". But you are right it is good to have a transport minister focused on transport, and so committed to public transport and cycling commuting. I think in his pragmatic view, and I believe Ryan is a pragmatic person he will go for what he can get through cabinet. Double tracking Galway Athenry is probably one he can get through, despite the many different angles of discussion here I just don't think he will get the WRC across the line, either through public spending code or cabinet. argue as we may I just cannot see it happening, that is just a prediction on my part, I may be wrong and at this stage not sure I really care anymore. When it comes to local transport I think he will do his utmost to improve bus services in Galway. I wouldn't disagree with your long term prediction though MB.

His reopening of GLUAS debate and commitment to double tracking Athenry does demonstrate something that I have been saying for some time- that Eamon Ryan is not fiscally motivated or restricted. He is, and always has been, a big picture guy. This shouldn't worry either side of the debate and could be a source of encouragement to both, which is why I agree with Ezstreet in that nobody should be underselling their locality. Within the same longterm view- that it might be seen as logical to propose a €100m investment for a six passenger train it will also be logical to install a €30 greenway while the longer-term ambition of opening that railway is maintained, with a view to both modes eventually coming to fruition. Same arguments as always- just a different tone required.

Pete_Cavan · 08-09-2020 11:32AM

ezstreet5 wrote: »

Yes. That is exactly the case. Based on conversations had at the time with a few politicians involved in negotiations, Oranmore was a difficult sell against the backdrop of austerity. That may have contributed to the less-than-ideal location that someone else on here mentioned. They needed the cheapest and easiest location (a greenfield site about 1 lm west of the original station) to make it happen at all.

And of course it is part of the WRC project, as evidenced by IE's cover letter for the planning application (see Galway Co. Planning Ref. No: 101877):

Oranmore was more likely a difficult sell against the backdrop of already blowing €100m on Athenry - Ennis. For less than the cost of WRC, a better located Oranmore station and passing track could have been built. Oranmore station was built despite WRC, not because of it.

The fact remains that a station at Oranmore could have been built even if WRC was not built. Oranmore could still have train services even if trains are not running Galway - Limerick. In a parallel universe, if Athenry - Ennis had not been rebuilt, I'm sure someone would have came up with the bright idea of building a station at a town of several thousand people where trains are already passing and where trains once stopped in the past. If a station is built at Roscam, does Athenry - Ennis get the credit for that too?

end of the road · 08-09-2020 11:47AM

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Oranmore was more likely a difficult sell against the backdrop of already blowing €100m on Athenry - Ennis. For less than the cost of WRC, a better located Oranmore station and passing track could have been built. Oranmore station was built despite WRC, not because of it.

The fact remains that a station at Oranmore could have been built even if WRC was not built. Oranmore could still have train services even if trains are not running Galway - Limerick. In a parallel universe, if Athenry - Ennis had not been rebuilt, I'm sure someone would have came up with the bright idea of building a station at a town of several thousand people where trains are already passing and where trains once stopped in the past. If a station is built at Roscam, does Athenry - Ennis get the credit for that too?

again this is all hypothetical what might have beens so at this stage doesn't matter now.
oranmore was built as part of the ennis athenry reopening project so is part of it whether a station could have been reopened there or not without it.
the same would apply to roscam if it had been opened as part of ennis to athenry, and the next section reopening would take the credit if it was opened as part of that project.
if it is opened on it's own then neither project can take the credit for it, but passengers boarding any trains from the wrc stopping there would be passengers of the wrc trains and not the wrc railway.

ezstreet5 · 08-09-2020 11:53AM

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Oranmore was more likely a difficult sell against the backdrop of already blowing €100m on Athenry - Ennis. For less than the cost of WRC, a better located Oranmore station and passing track could have been built. Oranmore station was built despite WRC, not because of it.

The fact remains that a station at Oranmore could have been built even if WRC was not built. Oranmore could still have train services even if trains are not running Galway - Limerick.

I'm not interested in decade-old rear-view mirror hypotheticals (could'ves, would'ves, should'ves). We can only make the best decisions at the time based on the information we have. And I think that was done, and I consider Phase 1 to be a success, even though only 39 of the 80 seats of each DMU are filled between Athenry and Ennis.

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

In a parallel universe, if Athenry - Ennis had not been rebuilt, I'm sure someone would have came up with the bright idea of building a station at a town of several thousand people where trains are already passing and where trains once stopped in the past.

Then why is it so such a "warped," "prosperous" and "fraudulent idea from a parallel universe" (to use your own pejoratives) to consider restoring rail service to a growing commuter town of 9,000 people where trains once stopped? Of course trains are not passing or stopping there now, but 90% of the civil infrastructure is extant.

Pete_Cavan · 08-09-2020 12:57PM

end of the road wrote: »

again this is all hypothetical what might have beens so at this stage doesn't matter now.
oranmore was built as part of the ennis athenry reopening project so is part of it whether a station could have been reopened there or not without it.
the same would apply to roscam if it had been opened as part of ennis to athenry, and the next section reopening would take the credit if it was opened as part of that project.
if it is opened on it's own then neither project can take the credit for it, but passengers boarding any trains from the wrc stopping there would be passengers of the wrc trains and not the wrc railway.

It matters because people are falsely overstating the benefits of WRC Phase 1. Oranmore was built under a separate contract, at a different time, it is not intrinsically linked to WRC. If a decision was made to cancel WRC services from tomorrow or the line was not operational for some reason, Oranmore would still have the majority of its trains into Galway and the WRC paths could potentially be reused to provide the same level of service at Oranmore.

serfboard · 08-09-2020 01:07PM

end of the road wrote: »

oranmore was built as part of the ennis athenry reopening project

Says who?

ezstreet5 · 08-09-2020 01:08PM

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

It matters because people are falsely overstating the benefits of WRC Phase 1. Oranmore was built under a separate contract, at a different time, it is not intrinsically linked to WRC. If a decision was made to cancel WRC services from tomorrow or the line was not operational for some reason, Oranmore would still have the majority of its trains into Galway and the WRC paths could potentially be reused to provide the same level of service at Oranmore.

Honestly, is there no end to your innovations? You don't even believe Iarnród Éireann's own statements that Oranmore Station was planned and built as part of Phase 1 of the WRC, and funded under Transport 21? So then you need to invent a "separate contract" and create another hypothetical situation of the WRC closing tomorrow to support your point? Shaky!

Pete_Cavan · 08-09-2020 01:16PM

ezstreet5 wrote: »

I'm not interested in decade-old rear-view mirror hypotheticals (could'ves, would'ves, should'ves). We can only make the best decisions at the time based on the information we have. And I think that was done, and I consider Phase 1 to be a success, even though only 39 of the 80 seats of each DMU are filled between Athenry and Ennis.

I am not sure that WRC Phase 1 was the best decisions at the time based on the information available at the time. In any case, it is not unreasonable to look back at decisions made and reassess if they were good best decisions, it can be useful in informing current and future decisions. Looking at the relative costs and passengers carried (both concrete actual data, not hypothetical), it is fair to determine that building Oranmore station but not WRC (which was entirely possible as both can stand alone and not interlink in any way) would have been a better use of public funds. You can of course also look at the same data and determine that building both was a good use of public funds but I don't think many would agree.

Then why is it so such a "warped," "prosperous" and "fraudulent idea from a parallel universe" (to use your own pejoratives) to consider restoring rail service to a growing commuter town of 9,000 people where trains once stopped? Of course trains are not passing or stopping there now, but 90% of the civil infrastructure is extant.

Oranmore was a relatively small (<€5m) capital investment and could have been served by existing trains at little additional operating cost and is on the mainline meaning it easily integrates with existing operations. Tuam will require a much larger capital investment (likely >€70m), would be an entirely new service thereby incurring greater operational costs and would be a branch line and services there limited by capacity constraints on the mainline. You've tried this thing before of applying the same logic to a completely different situation regarding Woodbrook station, I can only assume you are trolling at this stage.

L1011 · 08-09-2020 01:20PM

ezstreet5 wrote: »

So then you need to invent a "separate contract" and create another hypothetical situation of the WRC closing tomorrow to support your point

It was built by a different contractor (Coneeely) at a different time (2011) via a different tender award

That is by definition a different contract

It is not part of the WRC and it is outright fraudulent to try use its passenger figures as justification for the WRC. But you keep doing it.

Pete_Cavan · 08-09-2020 01:21PM

ezstreet5 wrote: »

Honestly, is there no end to your innovations? You don't even believe Iarnród Éireann's own statements that Oranmore Station was planned and built as part of Phase 1 of the WRC, and funded under Transport 21? So then you need to invent a "separate contract" and create another hypothetical situation of the WRC closing tomorrow to support your point? Shaky!

So they were both provided for within the same funding envelope, that means nothing in practical or operational terms. Oranmore can and could have been reopened without WRC, that is fact.

River Suir · 08-09-2020 01:22PM

L1011 wrote: »

It was built by a different contractor (Coneeely) at a different time (2011) via a different tender award

That is by definition a different contract

It is not part of the WRC and it is outright fraudulent to try use its passenger figures as justification for the WRC. But you keep doing it.

What trains other than Limerick Galway trains serve Oranmore?

L1011 · 08-09-2020 01:24PM

River Suir wrote: »

What trains other than Limerick Galway trains serve Oranmore?

Dublin-Galway. More of them than from Limerick, actually.

Do you actually even know where the station is?

ezstreet5 · 08-09-2020 01:25PM

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

You've tried this thing before of applying the same logic to a completely different situation regarding Woodbrook station, I can only assume you are trolling at this stage.

What on earth are you talking about? I've never mentioned "Woodbrook Station" and don't even know where it is. You are confused.

Pete_Cavan · 08-09-2020 01:30PM

ezstreet5 wrote: »

What on earth are you talking about? I've never mentioned "Woodbrook Station" and don't even know where it is. You are confused.

I was confused, I see it was ShaneC who drew the comparison with the planning population around Woodbrook station (which is a completely different situation to Tuam and not comparable), apologies.

ezstreet5 · 08-09-2020 01:31PM

L1011 wrote: »

It was built by a different contractor (Coneeely) at a different time (2011) via a different tender award

That is by definition a different contract

It is not part of the WRC and it is outright fraudulent to try use its passenger figures as justification for the WRC. But you keep doing it.

I suspect there were dozens of individual contractors (and contracts) associated with the Phase I of the build, and I don't give any credence to any "separate contract" argument for Oranmore. The real question is whether it was part of the same "project" from the same funding source? And I don't think there is any doubt that Oranmore Station was part of Phase 1 of the WRC.

donvito99 · 08-09-2020 01:38PM

I don't see how 'contracts' or 'projects' come into it.

Was a station and the existing service at Oranmore possible without reinstating Ennis - Athenry? Yup.

L1011 · 08-09-2020 01:39PM

ezstreet5 wrote: »

I suspect there were dozens of individual contractors (and contracts) associated with the Phase I of the build, and I don't give any credence to any "separate contract" argument for Oranmore. The real question is whether it was part of the same "project" from the same funding source? And I don't think there is any doubt that Oranmore Station was part of Phase 1 of the WRC.

There were - but there was no single contract for a single thing end to end at any stage. Which there was for Oranmore station

It was not funded as part of the WRC - it was funded by the NTA and GCC as a seperate project outwith the WRC which was finished and open by the time the tender was even issued

Its not a case of there being doubt - its outright obvious it was not part of the WRC; except to someone who desperately wants to try claim its passenger figures as part of the WRCs

River Suir wrote: »

No need to be arrogant.

There is absolutely nothing arrogant in asking that question. Its quite an important one to know the answer to actually.

It would appear from your posts that you know little to nothing about what you're posting about.

monument · 08-09-2020 02:15PM

River Suir wrote: »

No need to be arrogant.

Attack the post and not the poster. Read the charter before posting again.

— moderator

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

I’ve put him on ignore. Over heated rhetoric like “fraudulent” adds nothing to this.

Stay on topic or don’t bother posting.

— mod

ezstreet5 · 08-09-2020 02:15PM

L1011 wrote: »

There were - but there was no single contract for a single thing end to end at any stage. Which there was for Oranmore station

It was not funded as part of the WRC - it was funded by the NTA and GCC as a seperate project outwith the WRC which was finished and open by the time the tender was even issued

Its not a case of there being doubt - its outright obvious it was not part of the WRC; except to someone who desperately wants to try claim its passenger figures as part of the WRCs

I don't consider timing or contracts relevant. What I suspect (but don't have time to research) is that the overall "Phase I WRC" project included a number of sub-projects, including Oranmore Station and Crusheen Station. And, that a one-off grant was provided by the EC to complete the overall scheme. And, that the project went overbudget, leaving the final elements (Oranmore and Crusheen Stations) in jeopardy. And, that a separate, national "top-up" was needed to complete Oranmore Station. And, that no further top-up has been provided to date to complete Crusheen Station. But, all of those elements were part of the same WRC project scope, and if you want to pull out certain elements and analyze them is isolation, I suppose you can do that.

L1011 wrote: »

There is absolutely nothing arrogant in asking that question. Its quite an important one to know the answer to actually.

It would appear from your posts that you know little to nothing about what you're posting about.

Disagree. It was a snotty question. We all know where Oranmore Railway Station is.

Losty Dublin · 08-09-2020 02:15PM

ezstreet5 wrote: »

I suspect there were dozens of individual contractors (and contracts) associated with the Phase I of the build, and I don't give any credence to any "separate contract" argument for Oranmore. The real question is whether it was part of the same "project" from the same funding source? And I don't think there is any doubt that Oranmore Station was part of Phase 1 of the WRC.

I think there is but one compromise to all of this.

We get Irish Rail to build a new Oranmore station for the new parts of the WRC. The current station can be renamed Oranmore-under-WRC and that way the town can have three stations, a bit like Collooney had.

L1011 · 08-09-2020 02:16PM

ezstreet5 wrote: »

I don't consider timing or contracts relevant.

Because they prove your argument to be fatally flawed?

You considered contracts important enough to be worked up over them when you didn't realise it was actually a separate contract and accused Pete_Cavan of making it up. Less than 90 minutes ago.

ezstreet5 wrote: »

What I suspect (but don't have time to research)

You suspect wrong.

Losty Dublin wrote: »

I think there is but one compromise to all of this.

We get Irish Rail to build a new Oranmore station for the new parts of the WRC. The current station can be renamed Oranmore-under-WRC and that way the town can have three stations, a bit like Collooney had.

The nearest section of the WRC to Oranmore is ~10km crow flies, so it'd be rather pushing it.

ezstreet5 · 08-09-2020 02:17PM

L1011 wrote: »

You suspect wrong.

Oh?

Losty Dublin · 08-09-2020 02:20PM

L1011 wrote: »

The nearest section of the WRC to Oranmore is ~10km crow flies, so it'd be rather pushing it.

No hassle. They can run a train shuttle between it and Athenry.

Oh wait......

L1011 · 08-09-2020 02:21PM

ezstreet5 wrote: »

Oh?

Oranmore and Crusheen were never part of the WRC plans - you have developed some fanciful narrative to try and convince yourself that they were that quite simply didn't happen.

end of the road · 08-09-2020 03:08PM

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

It matters because people are falsely overstating the benefits of WRC Phase 1. Oranmore was built under a separate contract, at a different time, it is not intrinsically linked to WRC. If a decision was made to cancel WRC services from tomorrow or the line was not operational for some reason, Oranmore would still have the majority of its trains into Galway and the WRC paths could potentially be reused to provide the same level of service at Oranmore.

again this is all hypothetical woulda coulda shouldas, because we got what we got.

ezstreet5 · 08-09-2020 03:13PM

L1011 wrote: »

Oranmore and Crusheen were never part of the WRC plans - you have developed some fanciful narrative to try and convince yourself that they were that quite simply didn't happen.

Please correct me then, and provide evidence for an original reduced scope of Phase I excluding Oranmore and Crusheen. That issue is nearing 15 years old, and the record is not immediately available.

Pete_Cavan · 08-09-2020 03:24PM

end of the road wrote: »

again this is all hypothetical woulda coulda shouldas, because we got what we got.

And what we got was the WRC project delivered, then we got Oranmore station built later. Of course it is hypothetical but Oranmore station could have been built before WRC, or without it ever existing, and still have train services into Galway. Lumping passengers from Oranmore to Galway in with WRC is just a desperate attempt to up passenger numbers.

ezstreet5 · 08-09-2020 03:58PM

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Lumping passengers from Oranmore to Galway in with WRC is just a desperate attempt to up passenger numbers.

Who is doing that, and where?

L1011 · 08-09-2020 04:00PM

ezstreet5 wrote: »

Please correct me then, and provide evidence for an original reduced scope of Phase I excluding Oranmore and Crusheen. That issue is nearing 15 years old, and the record is not immediately available.

You are the one making the extraordinary claims, you are the one who needs to find evidence to back them up.

You are the one claiming a "reduced" scope at all, also.

This dancing on the head of a pin about scopes is ridiculous anyway - the actual facts that actually happened are that Oranmore Station opened after the WRC (with the planning process also being after the WRC); and Crusheen Station has not opened despite getting planning permission - also entirely after the WRC.

Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail Discussion

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