Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail Discussion

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Spending €70m to restore train services to the small population of Tuam could be classified as preposterous, spending €150m to restore train services to the small population of Tuam plus a tiny number of other people would be bat**** crazy.

Don't forget the metropolis of Ballyglunin! On a good day, it might get a third of the passengers that get onboard at Ardrahan!

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

I frame it about Tuam because it suits your argument! Spending €70m to restore train services to the small population of Tuam could be classified as preposterous, spending €150m to restore train services to the small population of Tuam plus a tiny number of other people would be bat**** crazy.

Can we please get some perspective on costs here in place of the perpetual freak-out?

If it were announced that the Covid Pandemic Unemployment Payment in place today was to be extended by just one week, would you classify that as "preposterous?" Would extending two weeks be "bat**** crazy?" Because that's about the cost of extending the the line to Tuam (€70m) and then Claremorris (€150m) per your own estimates - just two weeks of Covid payments.

The last time I checked, the de facto practice in a representative democracy was to aggressively lobby (dare I say, fight) for investment and spending for your own constituency. And yes, sometimes that can result in so-called "pork-barrel" projects and "bridges to nowhere." But given the low costs of the WRC, that's not really going to become an issue. Especially with Tuam growing at a rate of over 100 people per year. But politicians and local "advocates" eschewing rail investment in their region because it costs too much? Can one shoot themselves in the foot while at the same time sitting on the branch they are cutting off?

Switching gears, Minister Eamon Ryan on Ketith Finnegan this morning seemed quite keen on double-tracking between Galway and Athenry as a transport project that should be fast-tracked (mentioning it three times). So again, I suspect that the applications for funding submitted for this (I don't know the details) will succeed. He also seemed positive on a light rail system for Galway (which would have a mind-exploding €1b price-tag). He mentioned "local bicycle infrastructure" and "greenways" once each, as well as "high quality bus service" and other "public transit" projects. He seemed quite cool on the Outer City Bypass, deflecting to the fact that is was "in the planning stage."

Have a listen beginning at 1:21:11: https://galwaybayfm.ie/podcasts/galway-talks-with-keith-finnegan-thursday-3rd-september-2020-2-2/

Deleted User wrote: »

Perspective?
Covid payments are received by 220,000 this week.
The reopened stations of the WRC were used by about 60 people on the sample day.

You mean, "the three new cherrypicked stations of my choosing were used by 60 people on the sample day." Actual boardings for the five new actual stations differ:

Oranmore: 278
Craughwell: 26
Ardraghan: 12
Gort: 27
Sixmilebridge: 54

Why are you disregarding Oranmore and Sixmilebridge boardings, as well as Galway, Athenry, and Limerick boardings? It seems to me that we are getting quite granular to support a preconceived view that "nobody uses the WRC."

And how can you compare a benefit that lasts one week to one that lasts generations?

Deleted User wrote: »

Perspective?
Covid payments are received by 220,000 this week.
The reopened stations of the WRC were used by about 60 people on the sample day.

I'm with Eamonn Ryan on lots of matters.
I don't see the value of the Galway bypass.
Too much store is being put on it to solve problems, what if it never comes?
Quality bus corridors and say park and ride, maybe a new station at Roscam, double tracking and associated improvements, and maybe even light rail would transform the city, and make the WRC more viable by allowing it to plug into a comprehensive, integrated, reliable public transport network.

I was very disappointed the Oranmore station was in the middle of nowhere (I'm originally from Oranmore and the location of the original platform made loads of sense. It could bring folk to work in the industrial estate there and was near the 'not yet built' IDA park. Heck, it'd be a quicker trip to the cinema!! Anyways, I had inquired into this with our local politician and.... Oranmore station was to service the new 'Ardaun' suburb between Roscam & Oranmore.... so I'm afraid, I think that Oranmore is Roscams railway.... neither in one place or the other. I've lived in both and find the current location quiet difficult to use, especially, it seems to be designed around the car. There's plenty with no car, and we need to make our communities livable for everyone. Everyday travel should come before tourism infrastructure. The tourists will come if the areas are served well by public transport. (Donegal always say that they'd have way more tourists if only they had rail).

L1011 wrote: »

Oranmore and Sixmilebridge are not on the reopened section of track.

The usage figures that matter are those actually on the train between Athenry and Ennis which it is not possible to ascertain from the boardings

Oramore is a new station, of course its numbers count!! No one got on in Oranmore to commute to Galway before the new station!! That's obtuse thinking!!

I cycle almost every day, bikes are the second vehicle in our house, however, I'm sorry to say, I've discovered the local boys school are back down to having one child cycling to school everyday. Shouldn't cycling in the local areas we live in, be our priority.

ezstreet5 wrote: »

So they were free and not part of the €106m price-tag, which was just for new track?

Oranmore station was built separately and in no way reliant on WRC Phase 1 so its entirely fair to not include it when talking about the WRC Phase 1. Sixmilebridge could have been built and train services provided there without spending €100m between Athenry and Ennis.

Muckyboots wrote: »

Here is something I agree with you. While Eamon Ryan had phase 2 of the WRC teed up for him though he didn't even give it passing reference. Phase 2 advocates should take some comfort on his absolute determination on doub ttacking

I noticed that too. He had clearly done his homework, so I balance that silence with multiple mention of "balanced regional development" and "public transit projects." Altogether, nothing to hang your hat on either way.

And something I agree with you on...100% commercial rates on vacant premesis.

Greaney wrote: »

Oramore is a new station, of course its numbers count!! No one got on in Oranmore to commute to Galway before the new station!! That's obtuse thinking!!

ezstreet5 wrote: »

So they were free and not part of the €106m price-tag, which was just for new track?

Oranmore was not reopened with the WRC.


Trying to claim Sixmilebridge figures as being due to the WRC is spurious (the station could have been reopened without the WRC, as it is not on it), but trying to claim Oranmore figures is downright fraudulent.

end of the road wrote: »

ennis athenry no longer matters now, the service is galway to limerick, that is the more important offering, the through journey.r because there wasn't a plan to reopen it before the reopening of ennis athenry.

You're voluntarily making the numbers even worse if counting people going full length.

ezstreet5 wrote: »

I'm not sure which "figures" you are claiming as fraud - disregarded costs or disregarded benefits? You can disregard anything you chose to by drawing the "circle" as small as you want, even if it includes only the cow grazing at milepost 152.6, which seems to be where this is going.

Usage figures. Which is blatantly obvious

ezstreet5 wrote: »

OK, so again, you want to disregard usage figures from all of the following passengers using WRC services?

Galway - Oranmore
Oranmore - Galway
Galway - Athenry
Atherny - Galway
Oranmore - Athenry
Athenry - Oranmore
Ennis - Sixmilebridge
Sixmilebridge - Ennis
Ennis - Limerick
Limerick - Ennis
Sixmilebridge - Limerick
Limerick - Sixmilebridge

Yes, because they are not using the WRC.

How on earth is this such a difficult concept?

Galway-Athenry and Limerick-Ennis both had trains pre-WRC, and could be operating vastly improved services with the same stock as used for the full length.

Oranmore Station opened entirely separately and it is outright fraudulent to try pretend it has anything to do with the WRC.


Relying on the better passenger figures from commuter services that already existed is honestly pathetic.

ezstreet5 wrote: »

Because I am looking at unit trains, and you are looking at a stretch of track.

Since RTE Prime Time's 2011 "Ghost Train" piece, I've mistakenly believed that the "ghost train" was the one travelling between Ennis and Athenry. Now I know that the real ghost train is the one arriving from Ennis that somehow evaporates when it reaches Athenry along with its passengers (but unfortunately, the costs remain).

You're looking at the pre-existing ends of a service that wouldn't exist if the business case had been realistic for the usage in between Ennis and Athenry. So you are looking at useless data for the purpose you are trying to use it for.

That business case drafting mistake that will never be made again, thankfully.

If we weren't burning diesel moving air between Ennis and Athenry, both Ennis-Limerick and Athenry-Galway could have more services using the same rolling stock and drivers.

River Suir wrote: »

How would the rolling stock get from Ennis to Athenry? Teletransportation?

The service is not operated by a single set. There is a passing loop at Gort to accommodate this.

end of the road wrote: »

what might potentially have happened but probably wouldn't, or what could have potentially happened but probably wouldn't have, don't really matter now as what matters is what did happen.

What?

Actually, that entire post is not comprehensible in the slightest.

end of the road wrote: »

what might potentially have happened but probably wouldn't, or what could have potentially happened but probably wouldn't have, don't really matter now as what matters is what did happen.
no point in talking about how there might, just might have been but probably wouldn't have been in reality, more limerick ennis or galway athenry services because it's not what we got and we likely wouldn't have got them but for the reopening of ennis athenry.
even if we did get more such services, they would probably be to the same amount anyway as what exists now, but there would be no through service which has a good baseline now to grow from it seems which is good news.

Are you saying Oranmore station probably wouldn't have been built but for WRC Phase 1? What are you basing that on? Any reasonable person would say that building a new station at a cost of €5m which adds a couple of hundred passengers per day is the type of low hanging fruit that should be implemented before a €100m project which adds less than 100 passengers per day. Only in the warped logic alternative universe of the WRC are low cost but reasonable benefit projects dismissed but high cost but negligible benefit projects are considered the only show in town.

And on passenger numbers, if a new station was opened at Roscam, would WRC Phase 1 be credited with passengers using it too?

Muckyboots wrote: »

He really did have his homework done. His reopening of the GLUAS debate will ruffle feathers. Anyway, it's refreshing to have a Transport Minister with an interest in transport. Interesting few months ahead if he can get his green commrades to carry a budget. My money is back on the greenway now and railway alongside circa 2030-2035, once the double tracking is complete and Foynes has reached it's development target.

From what I recall of his comments on the GLUAS it was very much lets get the buses sorted out first, the greenways, and then in the whos knows when future the GLUAS, he referenced some small city in France if I recall and said a phrase like "who knows maybe in the future". But you are right it is good to have a transport minister focused on transport, and so committed to public transport and cycling commuting. I think in his pragmatic view, and I believe Ryan is a pragmatic person he will go for what he can get through cabinet. Double tracking Galway Athenry is probably one he can get through, despite the many different angles of discussion here I just don't think he will get the WRC across the line, either through public spending code or cabinet. argue as we may I just cannot see it happening, that is just a prediction on my part, I may be wrong and at this stage not sure I really care anymore. When it comes to local transport I think he will do his utmost to improve bus services in Galway. I wouldn't disagree with your long term prediction though MB.