Time for Government to take a grip on Navan Railway

Lord Glentoran · 01-09-2020 07:10AM #1

From the IRRS Journal June 1981:

During a visit to Inchicore Works on 24 April, the Transport Minister made a surprising announcement - that the board of CIE had decided to institute commuter services on the existing ex-MGWR Galway line as far as Maynooth, serving Blanchardstown, Clonsilla, Lucan, and Leixlip...

In reality, the CIE board were instructed to do this.

If they weren’t, chances are there would be no DART+ as there would be no service to put it on.

If Navan residents are to wait for the NTA to condescend to give them a railway service they will be waiting in a decade’s time, as it has clearly expressed its preference for buses taking endless and unpredictable times to travel between Navan and Dublin.

It is time for Government to govern, and to reinstate passenger services on Navan-Drogheda to give a connection to Dublin and Belfast trains, and to extend the M3 Parkway line to Navan. Enough is enough.

loyatemu · 01-09-2020 10:19AM

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

From the IRRS Journal June 1981:

In reality, the CIE board were instructed to do this.

If they weren’t, chances are there would be no DART+ as there would be no service to put it on.

If Navan residents are to wait for the NTA to condescend to give them a railway service they will be waiting in a decade’s time, as it has clearly expressed its preference for buses taking endless and unpredictable times to travel between Navan and Dublin.

It is time for Government to govern, and to reinstate passenger services on Navan-Drogheda to give a connection to Dublin and Belfast trains, and to extend the M3 Parkway line to Navan. Enough is enough.

is there a local campaign group?

Lord Glentoran · 01-09-2020 12:04PM

loyatemu wrote: »

is there a local campaign group?

There was - Meath On Track. No idea if they are still active but according to one of my friends in Meath East it was a live issue at the GE, with a lot of cynicism about the 2010 era “Dempsey Delivers” campaign by FF...

Lord Glentoran · 01-09-2020 04:13PM

“2015 is too long to wait” - Rail Users Ireland on the Navan line.

http://www.railusers.ie/campaigns/navan/

is_that_so · 01-09-2020 04:22PM

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

“2015 is too long to wait” - Rail Users Ireland on the Navan line.

http://www.railusers.ie/campaigns/navan/

Isn't/Wasn't there a proposal to extend from the M3 Parkway station by 2030 or something? You need to get onto Eamonn and ask him!

Muahahaha · 02-09-2020 04:03PM

It didnt get done during the Celtic Tiger when Navan based Noel Dempsey was Minister for Transport and there was money sloshing around. The Navan railway does need to be re-opened but Id say its a long way down a list after the Maynooth and Drogheda lines get electrified.

Pete_Cavan · 02-09-2020 08:22PM

There isn't even a line to reopen, large stretches of it have been subsumed into fields, converted to roads, had houses built on, etc.

GT89 · 02-09-2020 08:36PM

There is a line already there all they have to do is build and open a station it is as much a no brainer as reopening the ppt to passenger trains.

Run hourly two car shuttle services between Drogheda and Navan to connect with Dublin services Drogheda and Navan are both big enough towns to justify a rail service and when the funding is in place a line direct to Dublin can be built.

CatInABox · 03-09-2020 08:16AM

GT89 wrote: »

There is a line already there all they have to do is build and open a station it is as much a no brainer as reopening the ppt to passenger trains.

Run hourly two car shuttle services between Drogheda and Navan to connect with Dublin services Drogheda and Navan are both big enough towns to justify a rail service and when the funding is in place a line direct to Dublin can be built.

Pretty pointless when the Northern Line trains stopping in Drogheda are already crammed, and there's no easy ability to add extra trains onto the northern line.

It has to be an extension to the M3 Parkway line, most likely a mix of old and new alignment.

lucernarian · 03-09-2020 11:27AM

CatInABox wrote: »

Pretty pointless when the Northern Line trains stopping in Drogheda are already crammed, and there's no easy ability to add extra trains onto the northern line.

It has to be an extension to the M3 Parkway line, most likely a mix of old and new alignment.

Navan to Drogheda journeys are a valid objective in their own right? What's your evidence to say this is pointless? There's already a fully functional railway with large portions of continuous welded track well able to take 70mph speed limits.

Also a lot to be said for going further from M3 parkway to Navan.

Pixel Eater · 03-09-2020 11:33AM

The Navan rail line has be promised/suggested for years. Has there been any basic work done on it, like a feasibility study or initial engineering assessment?

GT89 · 03-09-2020 11:43AM

lucernarian wrote: »

Navan to Drogheda journeys are a valid objective in their own right? What's your evidence to say this is pointless? There's already a fully functional railway with large portions of continuous welded track well able to take 70mph speed limits.

Also a lot to be said for going further from M3 parkway to Navan.

Navan has 30k and Drogheda has 40k both large towns bound to some demand already an hourly BE service between the two. All it has to be is an hourly two car shuttle type service would probably see a greater demand than the WRC for example and potentially a similar patronage to the commuter lines around Cork if done right.

Might encourage people to live and work locally instead of commuting to Dublin also which would reduce pressure on commuter lines.

goingnowhere · 03-09-2020 11:53AM

Pixel Eater wrote: »

The Navan rail line has be promised/suggested for years. Has there been any basic work done on it, like a feasibility study or initial engineering assessment?

Full railway order was prepared

468 million was the 2004 quoted cost...

AngryLips · 03-09-2020 11:58AM

CatInABox wrote: »

Pretty pointless when the Northern Line trains stopping in Drogheda are already crammed, and there's no easy ability to add extra trains onto the northern line.

So Dart+ won't do anything for Drogheda?

lucernarian · 03-09-2020 11:59AM

GT89 wrote: »

Navan has 30k and Drogheda has 40k both large towns bound to some demand already an hourly BE service between the two. All it has to be is an hourly two car shuttle type service would probably see a greater demand than the WRC for example and potentially a similar patronage to the commuter lines around Cork if done right.

Might encourage people to live and work locally instead of commuting to Dublin also which would reduce pressure on commuter lines.

Finally some sense. I cannot get why this isn't more of a political priority than opening rail to Tuam. It would rejuvenate Duleek too which currently doesn't have a lot going for it to be honest. And it would put the pressure on reinstating the Navan-Dublin line if there is latent demand for rail service there.

Pete_Cavan · 03-09-2020 12:14PM

The old line to Navan is completely gone in a number of locations plus it doesn't serve any meaningful population until it gets to Navan, it's a none runner. Imo the only way to bring rail to Navan is with a new alignment, predominantly following the M3. Continue north from M3PW and cross to the other side of the motorway after the toll. Hug the motorway, deviating to create a station at Dunshaughlin before following the motorway again. Head North at J7, where a P&R is created, new station near Johnstown/Kentstown Road to serve all the houses on that side of Navan, and then join the Drogheda line into the town. 30km of track, three new stations, one major rail bridge over the motorway and avoids motorway GSJs.

The only way I could ever see this being justified was if it was also to serve as a alternative to adding tracks to the Northern line. Drogheda trains could be put on the Navan line to get them off the northern line and free up paths there. Dundalk and possibly Belfast trains could run on it too but that would require a total rebuild of Drogheda Station. Clonsilla to Broombridge could become over congested though but a passing section could be provided around Navan Road Parkway. Hopefully DART+ will free up space for these trains to terminate at Connolly/Docklands.

AngryLips · 03-09-2020 12:56PM

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

The only way I could ever see this being justified was if it was also to serve as a alternative to adding tracks to the Northern line. Drogheda trains could be put on the Navan line to get them off the northern line and free up paths there. Dundalk and possibly Belfast trains could run on it too but that would require a total rebuild of Drogheda Station. Clonsilla to Broombridge could become over congested though but a passing section could be provided around Navan Road Parkway. Hopefully DART+ will free up space for these trains to terminate at Connolly/Docklands.

You couldn't route Drogheda suburban trains via Navan - there's too much demand along the intermediate stops on the northern line to justify reducing those services. You could maybe route intercity services via Navan and perhaps deal with the congestion of the Maynooth line by building a connection between Maynooth and Hazelhatch and routing Sligo trains to Heuston. But all this is too much crayon drawing for reality.

Lord Glentoran · 03-09-2020 01:15PM

AngryLips wrote: »

So Dart+ won't do anything for Drogheda?

DART+ would be of huge benefit for Drogheda, but claiming that capacity issues on the Northern line can’t be dealt with is another excuse to do nothing for years, with the ancillary consequence of toll income not being impaired :rolleyes:

Pete_Cavan · 03-09-2020 01:52PM

AngryLips wrote: »

You couldn't route Drogheda suburban trains via Navan - there's too much demand along the intermediate stops on the northern line to justify reducing those services. You could maybe route intercity services via Navan and perhaps deal with the congestion of the Maynooth line by building a connection between Maynooth and Hazelhatch and routing Sligo trains to Heuston. But all this is too much crayon drawing for reality.

You obviously wouldn't reduce services on the northern line, service patterns would change. The best solution would be to route intercity services via Navan but that would require an extensive rebuild of Drogheda station.

Del.Monte · 03-09-2020 01:54PM

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

DART+ would be of huge benefit for Drogheda, but claiming that capacity issues on the Northern line can’t be dealt with is another excuse to do nothing for years, with the ancillary consequence of toll income not being impaired :rolleyes:

DART to Drogheda will spell the end of the Belfast/Dublin service as it as for the Rosslare line.

lucernarian · 03-09-2020 03:49PM

Del.Monte wrote: »

DART to Drogheda will spell the end of the Belfast/Dublin service as it as for the Rosslare line.

To think two cities 100 miles apart with a population of up to and over a million each, can't be served with a reliable and frequent rail service is madness. A third line along some sections of the northern DART service would easily fix this, but there's other threads for that.

GT89 · 03-09-2020 05:09PM

lucernarian wrote: »

To think two cities 100 miles apart with a population of up to and over a million each, can't be served with a reliable and frequent rail service is madness. A third line along some sections of the northern DART service would easily fix this, but there's other threads for that.

Wait a minute that's a sensible idea and this is Ireland. We don't do that here!

Isambard · 03-09-2020 05:39PM

the route via Drogheda won't happen because it will mean suspending the ore trains for a protracted period and also there is no capacity currently on the existing line to Dublin.

IE 222 · 03-09-2020 06:01PM

Drogheda - Navan is your only likely option and probably the best option even if it means taking 10 mins longer than via M3.

Line is already open and running and is in fairly good condition. Its covers the M1,2 and 3 corridors. The cost savings compared to expending M3 would allow investment into the Northern line. Dart North will likely see Malahide been pulled as a terminating station which is part of the problem also. Dart North will also mean semi fast services been able to run further North before making a stop which will reduce journey times on Navan services.

Some quad tracking sections between Connolly and Harmonstown plus Howth Junction and Malahide and turn back bays at Balabriggan and Donabate will resolve capacity issue. That sould still be cheaper than extending the M3.

IE 222 · 03-09-2020 06:26PM

goingnowhere wrote: »

Full railway order was prepared

468 million was the 2004 quoted cost...

I think the more recent figure was coming in over €600 million. Also the most recent studies were carried out before the more recent jobs boom of 2016-8.

I reckon Navan - Drogheda could be upgraded for less than €200 and reserve the remaining €400 that would've been spent on the M3 line to upgrade the Northern line and they'd still have change left over. Kill 2 birds with 1 stone and all that.

M3 line could be considered for a later extension to Dunshauglin, Ratoath and Ashbourne.

IE 222 · 03-09-2020 06:42PM

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

You obviously wouldn't reduce services on the northern line, service patterns would change. The best solution would be to route intercity services via Navan but that would require an extensive rebuild of Drogheda station.

What intercity services?

Dublin - Belfast via Navan????

GT89 · 03-09-2020 06:47PM

Isambard wrote: »

the route via Drogheda won't happen because it will mean suspending the ore trains for a protracted period and also there is no capacity currently on the existing line to Dublin.

Just run Drogheda-Navan shuttles rather than direct services from Dublin and maybe have some direct trains at peak times like M3 Parkway

IE 222 · 03-09-2020 07:03PM

GT89 wrote: »

Just run Drogheda-Navan shuttles rather than direct services from Dublin and maybe have some direct trains at peak times like M3 Parkway

I think he means Tara's would need to be suspended during upgrade works.

I cant see this been an issue. They were suspended during the Malahide bridge collapse also the works involved here are relatively minor and any processions of the line could be taking over extended weekends, with maybe a small number of weeks of complete closure. It's only freight traffic which can have its service altered.

Pete_Cavan · 03-09-2020 07:33PM

IE 222 wrote: »

What intercity services?

Dublin - Belfast via Navan????

Yes. It may be a longer distance but it would be on a less congested route so higher speeds could be achieved. The approach to Connolly from that side is already effectively quadtracked from Glasnevin as you have the two lines either side of Croke Park. Also space to allow for overtaking at Navan Road Parkway.

Additional track(s) between Killester and Clongriffin isn't going to happen. Any stretch along there would require a huge number of houses to be CPOed and that would be met with huge resistance.

andrewfaulk · 03-09-2020 07:49PM

IE 222 wrote: »

I think he means Tara's would need to be suspended during upgrade works.

I cant see this been an issue. They were suspended during the Malahide bridge collapse also the works involved here are relatively minor and any processions of the line could be taking over extended weekends, with maybe a small number of weeks of complete closure. It's only freight traffic which can have its service altered.

Very IE approach to things, it’s only freight traffic.. 1500 tonnes or so a day

L1011 · 03-09-2020 07:55PM

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

with the ancillary consequence of toll income not being impaired :rolleyes:

If the toll income argument had any weight, they would not have:

1: Prepared planning for the line to Navan, which was not in any way cheap to do
2: More recently, introduced the NX bus service

There is a very common trend of trying to blame conspiracies for what is just a combo of funding issues and lack of coherent drive.

As for Navan-Drogheda-Dublin - it would not be time competitive with coach services. Additionally, most people would be connecting to already packed commuter services (so don't give us Enterprise best-case timings!), it is the last of the DART+ upgrades and realistically that capacity is already spoken for.

If it had been introduced when Meath On Track were first calling for it - about 20 years ago and before the M3, M50 junction upgrades, N3 junction upgrades, bus priority measures in the city, etc etc etc - it would have had a purpose. It doesn't now. Any rail service for Navan has to be via Clonsilla. Drogheda-Navan would not justify a train service on its own.

Time for Government to take a grip on Navan Railway

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