Time for Government to take a grip on Navan Railway

IE 222

lucernarian wrote: »

I remember there being a CAWS sign with a line through it at the start of the Navan branch (seemed to signify there was no advanced signalling on the branch, happy to be corrected)

The few manual unstaffed crossings could easily and cheaply be closed I think?

About capacity, I'm still thinking a shuttle would work fine for the purposes of travel between all those places between Belfast and Dublin, not so much as a commuter service. And looking at Limerick/Ballybrophy, I doubt they can even run a commuter service if they tried to time trains.

You can't just decide to close access points to people lands and it certainly won't be done cheaply if you could close them altogether. The option in such cases is build a bridge or buy the land. You may get lucky with a land swap agreement between land owners. After that your upgrading the crossing.

The idea of a Navan railway is to offer a Dublin to Navan service and not some bare bones branch line shuttle between Navan and Drogheda with the leisurely added benefit of onward travel to Dublin or Belfast should one choose to do so.

L1011

IE 222 wrote: »

Y
The idea of a Navan railway is to offer a Dublin to Navan service and not some bare bones branch line shuttle between Navan and Drogheda with the leisurely added benefit of onward travel to Dublin or Belfast should one choose to do so.

And yet that is all you are ever going to get going via Drogheda,.

AngryLips

IE 222 wrote: »

The idea of a Navan railway is to offer a Dublin to Navan service and not some bare bones branch line shuttle between Navan and Drogheda with the leisurely added benefit of onward travel to Dublin or Belfast should one choose to do so.

Well people said that PPT was no substitute for Dart Underground, and they're right. But PPT has still proven to be a big success. I have difficulty imagining Navan-Drogheda to be any different.

lucernarian

IE 222 wrote: »

You can't just decide to close access points to people lands and it certainly won't be done cheaply if you could close them altogether. The option in such cases is build a bridge or buy the land. You may get lucky with a land swap agreement between land owners. After that your upgrading the crossing.

The idea of a Navan railway is to offer a Dublin to Navan service and not some bare bones branch line shuttle between Navan and Drogheda with the leisurely added benefit of onward travel to Dublin or Belfast should one choose to do so.

Such a red herring. 6 automated crossings, given the nature of them or even for fields, are gonna cost at the lower end of the spectrum. 500k each say? It's a non-issue compared to track replacement.

I think a regular shuttle serving a new town via rail is not some kind of bare bones deal it's being portrayed as. It could make for much cheaper engineering works in Drogheda if the hypothetical platform doesn't need to be fully built out to over 180 metres.

The whole point is to have "a service that's good at what it's designed to do" so that it can take advantage of "Dart North" when it comes, and fuel desire for direct Navan to Dublin rail if it's a success. And without the significant financial risks that the likes of the WRC would bring. It's clear as day Drogheda-Navan would be much cheaper than the Phase 1 of WRC.

L1011

The reality is that if they provided it; that would be that. There would be no via Clonsilla services and there would be no direct services. Navan is not getting two passenger railway lines.

So you'd spend money a borderline useless service that would prevent the actually useful one.

listermint

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

Shall we just tarmac everything then? Driverless cars could “murder” buses and trains and whatever but where’s the capacity for all those apparently displaced commuters, and with projected increases in population?

I fully understand the forum I'm in and folks are mad for trains et el.

But lads, the workplace we have today is changing and will be far more different in future we won't have the same levels of 9 to 5 commuter traffic. And driverless cars will be able to navigate more efficiently and less accident prone due to no human intervention.

If you avoid the subject thinking it ain't coming then you really haven't been watching. I'm no Tesla fanboy quite the opposite but the man has the technology going and he's already put satellites in space who's purpose is to provide connections globally for these vehicle's. Why do you think the share price is going through the roof.

Serious cost analysis for vanity rail projects such as this needs to be done with projections on smart vehicles taking over.

It may sound like a laugh but evidently your not looking.

listermint

Del.Monte wrote: »

Lol! Not worthy of further comment.

Lol. Ya ok..... I'd prefer you didnt comment because.. well..

end of the road

listermint wrote: »

I fully understand the forum I'm in and folks are mad for trains et el.

But lads, the workplace we have today is changing and will be far more different in future we won't have the same levels of 9 to 5 commuter traffic. And driverless cars will be able to navigate more efficiently and less accident prone due to no human intervention.

If you avoid the subject thinking it ain't coming then you really haven't been watching. I'm no Tesla fanboy quite the opposite but the man has the technology going and he's already put satellites in space who's purpose is to provide connections globally for these vehicle's. Why do you think the share price is going through the roof.

Serious cost analysis for vanity rail projects such as this needs to be done with projections on smart vehicles taking over.

It may sound like a laugh but evidently your not looking.

we are watching and are well aware of what is going on, however the reality is that while driverless cars will make car traveling easier and while there will be more working from home, just like the reality that the motor car didn't eradicate rail as it's proponents at the time tried to claim, the driverless car won't either.
nothing to do with being mad for trains or any other nonsense, but simple reality.

navan is far from a vanity rail project, it is one of the most justifiable rail reopenings in the state, if not the most justified rail reopening.

GT89

L1011 wrote: »

The reality is that if they provided it; that would be that. There would be no via Clonsilla services and there would be no direct services. Navan is not getting two passenger railway lines.

So you'd spend money a borderline useless service that would prevent the actually useful one.

Just run trains Dublin to Drogheda via Navan

lucernarian

L1011 wrote: »

The reality is that if they provided it; that would be that. There would be no via Clonsilla services and there would be no direct services. Navan is not getting two passenger railway lines.

So you'd spend money a borderline useless service that would prevent the actually useful one.

That's entirely speculative now. If there's demand, it can't be sustained via the northern line's two tracks. I see people claiming we can't fit in a third track anywhere from killester to Howth Junction and yet we can't also run extra services from e.g. Navan to Dublin. Describing it as useless? Is it because of the bus service that takes 30 minutes alone just to leave Drogheda via its hospital routing? Or is the N51 something different to what I remember?

Something's gotta give logically. Either the northern line can't handle direct services from Navan, or it can. One option first means we have to spend a lot of money on a very ambitious concept with little certainty of paying for itself given the remaining bits of alignment are so poor (and really hammering the capital budget), or we spend a tiny, yes tiny, fraction of the costs to make an existing welded and modernised track to make it suitable for passenger services, expand rail to 40 thousand more people for where people want to go, and get a very direct comparison if spending 10x the cost on another solution would be worth it (while also preserving a vital asset between two of the largest and growing towns in Ireland).

The two projects inherently cannot cannibalise each other owing to the various diverse limitations each "option to Dublin" has. Drogheda-Navan can't sustain trips pre DART+ assuming that project can magically deliver what it proposes with 2 tracks all the way, but if it can, then all the better that people are using it and if not, that reaffirms the need for direct Navan to Clonsilla services.

IE 222

L1011 wrote: »

And yet that is all you are ever going to get going via Drogheda,.

In the current set up. Northern line will see capacity upgrades with Dart expansion.

IE 222

AngryLips wrote: »

Well people said that PPT was no substitute for Dart Underground, and they're right. But PPT has still proven to be a big success. I have difficulty imagining Navan-Drogheda to be any different.

PPT ran a service into a destination people want to travel to rather than another town 30 miles away.

I'm all for Navan - Drogheda been used but as a Navan - Dublin route with Drogheda been the added bonus connection not Dublin. This set up is set to fail. Of course to gain the end result, upgrades need to be made between Drogheda and Dublin. Adding this as part of Dart North will ensure the service is included as part of the Northern line rather than been push aside as some seperate shuttle service.

I don't understand how a Navan - Drogheda shuttle can be a suitable replacement from building a direct Navan - Dublin line. Navan will need more than an hourly connection to Drogheda.

IE 222

lucernarian wrote: »

Such a red herring. 6 automated crossings, given the nature of them or even for fields, are gonna cost at the lower end of the spectrum. 500k each say? It's a non-issue compared to track replacement.

I think a regular shuttle serving a new town via rail is not some kind of bare bones deal it's being portrayed as. It could make for much cheaper engineering works in Drogheda if the hypothetical platform doesn't need to be fully built out to over 180 metres.

The whole point is to have "a service that's good at what it's designed to do" so that it can take advantage of "Dart North" when it comes, and fuel desire for direct Navan to Dublin rail if it's a success. And without the significant financial risks that the likes of the WRC would bring. It's clear as day Drogheda-Navan would be much cheaper than the Phase 1 of WRC.

It's not an issue but it costs money and will most certainly increase your €20 million estimate. Your looking at about a million per crossing just for automaton.

The demand for Dublin will be multiple of what Navan - Drogheda will ever be.

Your suggestion and level of upgrade would offer nothing more than a 2800 set shuttling back and forward at a reduced speed all day long. I don't think we need to test the waters here. Its clear there is demand for a service to Dublin.

dowlingm

For me the major gain of a Navan line would be the ability to route ore trains at 50mph to North Wall via Clonsilla with no stops to open manual gates rather than at 25mph, while removing some low speed paths from Dundalk/Enterprise. The passenger gain is nice too, don’t get me wrong, but the gain might be as much from being able to add service on the Northern Line as much as what boards in Navan.

Such a concept does put Clonsilla-Glasnevin under pressure, admittedly.

Rulmeq

dowlingm wrote: »

For me the major gain of a Navan line would be the ability to route ore trains at 50mph to North Wall via Clonsilla with no stops to open manual gates rather than at 25mph

How many ore trains are there per day? I forgot they used the northern line as well.

GT89

Rulmeq wrote: »

How many ore trains are there per day? I forgot they used the northern line as well.

About 3 or 4 I think

IE 222

Theres 2-3 flows a day. There off peak flows and are altered around passenger services. They don't have a impact on the Northern line.

L1011

GT89 wrote: »

Just run trains Dublin to Drogheda via Navan

No capacity. Neither now nor likely in the future either. Developments along the line are going to consume the DART+ capacity increase quite quickly

L1011

lucernarian wrote: »

That's entirely speculative now. If there's demand, it can't be sustained via the northern line's two tracks. I see people claiming we can't fit in a third track anywhere from killester to Howth Junction and yet we can't also run extra services from e.g. Navan to Dublin. Describing it as useless? Is it because of the bus service that takes 30 minutes alone just to leave Drogheda via its hospital routing? Or is the N51 something different to what I remember?

Something's gotta give logically. Either the northern line can't handle direct services from Navan, or it can. One option first means we have to spend a lot of money on a very ambitious concept with little certainty of paying for itself given the remaining bits of alignment are so poor (and really hammering the capital budget), or we spend a tiny, yes tiny, fraction of the costs to make an existing welded and modernised track to make it suitable for passenger services, expand rail to 40 thousand more people for where people want to go, and get a very direct comparison if spending 10x the cost on another solution would be worth it (while also preserving a vital asset between two of the largest and growing towns in Ireland).

The two projects inherently cannot cannibalise each other owing to the various diverse limitations each "option to Dublin" has. Drogheda-Navan can't sustain trips pre DART+ assuming that project can magically deliver what it proposes with 2 tracks all the way, but if it can, then all the better that people are using it and if not, that reaffirms the need for direct Navan to Clonsilla services.

Half this post or more revolves around Drogheda to Navan as if that justifies demand on its own

It doesn't. It's Dublin-Navan and anything along the way is a bonus.

And the bonuses going via Clonsilla are Dunshauglin, future developments at Kilmessan and interfacing with Broombridge and Glasnevin for interchange.

Pushing for the substandard option - which absolutely would stop the other ever being built as the matter would be seen to be done - just because of some desire for quicker Drogheda Navan services is incredibly short sighted

AngryLips

L1011 wrote: »

Half this post or more revolves around Drogheda to Navan as if that justifies demand on its own

You realise there's an hourly bus service between the two towns right?

L1011

AngryLips wrote: »

You realise there's an hourly bus service between the two towns right?

Yes.

And an hourly bus service is a fraction of the demand required to provide a train line.

Its not even the capacity of a single unit rail car, which we no longer have.

mojesius

If they do extend M3 to Navan with additional stations in between, capacity will need to be seriously increased (or different/longer) trains used.

In non-covid world, peak trains are standing only from from Dunboyne and jammers by Coolmine. Leaving docklands, they're packed between 5 and 630pm. Unless Navan trains bypass some of the intermediate stops, people won't be able to get on by Clonsilla.

Hopefully Dart+ plans can solve for this.

IE 222

dowlingm wrote: »

For me the major gain of a Navan line would be the ability to route ore trains at 50mph to North Wall via Clonsilla with no stops to open manual gates rather than at 25mph, while removing some low speed paths from Dundalk/Enterprise. The passenger gain is nice too, don’t get me wrong, but the gain might be as much from being able to add service on the Northern Line as much as what boards in Navan.

Such a concept does put Clonsilla-Glasnevin under pressure, admittedly.

25mph is just Navan - Drogheda section. I'm not 100% but as far as I'm aware this lower speed is applied purely to reduce maintenance costs. It has zero effect on passenger services.

Again Tara's work passenger services and use what paths are available rather than dictating to other services what paths they use. Removing them only free midday late evening slots which there is no shortage of.

SeanW

That quote from Rail Users Ireland brings back some memories

Even if the line from Drogheda to Connolly was not congested in the peak times, I don't think there would be much benefit to reopening Navan-Drogheda-Connolly. Drogheda is actually North of Navan and the journey would be very indirect. I can't see such a routing being better than a bus from Navan along the M3/N3, although street congestion in the O'Connell Bridge area might be a problem for some bus users.

Worst case scenario is that a train service along existing lines has the opposite effect to what some expect - that (even the problems aside) such a service would not be used, and end up damaging the case for a reinstatement of the Pace-Navan line.

Better to forget about the existing Drogheda line and just push for reinstatement of the Pace-Navan line (or a new line with some deviations) instead.

Late in the last governments' term, they declared a "climate emergency" and one of the prices the Greens exacted on FF/FG this time was a commitment to a 2:1 ratio of capital investment in favour of public transport over roads.

If this does not help push the case for a proper Navan line, then we're in serious trouble.

IE 222

SeanW wrote: »

That quote from Rail Users Ireland brings back some memories

Even if the line from Drogheda to Connolly was not congested in the peak times, I don't think there would be much benefit to reopening Navan-Drogheda-Connolly. Drogheda is actually North of Navan and the journey would be very indirect. I can't see such a routing being better than a bus from Navan along the M3/N3, although street congestion in the O'Connell Bridge area might be a problem for some bus users.

Worst case scenario is that a train service along existing lines has the opposite effect to what some expect - that (even the problems aside) such a service would not be used, and end up damaging the case for a reinstatement of the Pace-Navan line.

Better to forget about the existing Drogheda line and just push for reinstatement of the Pace-Navan line (or a new line with some deviations) instead.

Late in the last governments' term, they declared a "climate emergency" and one of the prices the Greens exacted on FF/FG this time was a commitment to a 2:1 ratio of capital investment in favour of public transport over roads.

If this does not help push the case for a proper Navan line, then we're in serious trouble.

With the right investment and infrastructure in place train would be a lot more competitive.

Navan - Drogheda would be less than 20mins. A limited stop service from Drogheda- Dublin should be 40mins max if the right infrastructure is put in place. That would compete with any bus.

Rail line via M3 to Dockland would be an hour also. Any capacity the Maynooth line had for a Navan service will be gone when Dart starts so it will no better than via Drogheda. New Dart plans mean going via M3 it would be an all stops service where it could operate as a semi fast service on the Northern line. The plans would also restrict a Navan service to Spencer Dock instead of running into Connolly or GCD.

A number of people who drive over taking the bus would swap for rail. Many already drive a fair distance to take the train at Pace instead of continuing on or taking the bus. Rosslare line is slower than the bus but people still use it.

AngryLips

SeanW wrote: »

Late in the last governments' term, they declared a "climate emergency" and one of the prices the Greens exacted on FF/FG this time was a commitment to a 2:1 ratio of capital investment in favour of public transport over roads

What I fail to understand about that concession is that it either means a reduction in road spending or a massive increase in PT spending ...and if it's the latter, how come we didn't see anything new added to the programme for Government in terms of public transport?

lucernarian

L1011 wrote: »

Half this post or more revolves around Drogheda to Navan as if that justifies demand on its own

It doesn't. It's Dublin-Navan and anything along the way is a bonus.

And the bonuses going via Clonsilla are Dunshauglin, future developments at Kilmessan and interfacing with Broombridge and Glasnevin for interchange.

Pushing for the substandard option - which absolutely would stop the other ever being built as the matter would be seen to be done - just because of some desire for quicker Drogheda Navan services is incredibly short sighted

Well, it does.... There are almost 100,000 people who could use this service, and the engineering costs to provide this are minimal.

And as I explained already, it's short sighted to leave existing assets unused that are inherently also unable to deliver a direct service to Dublin. It's nonsense to say a logicstically impossible outcome is the reason why we should not do this. Providing a shuttle service to Navan can be easily accomplished and it's short-sighted to ignore passenger growth and potential along this access, that would necessarily boost the case for direct Navan rail from Dublin too.

lucernarian

SeanW wrote: »

Worst case scenario is that a train service along existing lines has the opposite effect to what some expect - that (even the problems aside) such a service would not be used, and end up damaging the case for a reinstatement of the Pace-Navan line.

Better to forget about the existing Drogheda line and just push for reinstatement of the Pace-Navan line (or a new line with some deviations) instead.

Late in the last governments' term, they declared a "climate emergency" and one of the prices the Greens exacted on FF/FG this time was a commitment to a 2:1 ratio of capital investment in favour of public transport over roads.

If this does not help push the case for a proper Navan line, then we're in serious trouble.

There's no actual evidence or logic being applied here. How does abandoning existing assets for a modicum of service between the largest towns in the country in any way help the case for direct rail to one of the towns?

The use cases are entirely separate, and you can't prove something with a negative - except maybe that people would want direct rail to Dublin from Navan and the regional connectivity benefits using that freight line are comparatively small. And then we again need Dublin-Navan progressed as a priority.

This non-risk or fear of "cannibalisation" is completely misplaced in this case. The very fact that direct services via Drogheda cannot be done, are a reason for both reinstating direct rail to Navan, AND providing a shuttle service along an existing rail line that's almost good to go.

IE 222

lucernarian wrote: »

Well, it does.... There are almost 100,000 people who could use this service, and the engineering costs to provide this are minimal.

And as I explained already, it's short sighted to leave existing assets unused that are inherently also unable to deliver a direct service to Dublin. It's nonsense to say a logicstically impossible outcome is the reason why we should not do this. Providing a shuttle service to Navan can be easily accomplished and it's short-sighted to ignore passenger growth and potential along this access, that would necessarily boost the case for direct Navan rail from Dublin too.

What your purposing is essentially spending €50 million on a bit of housekeeping of the line. €50 million for about 5-10% of the benefit a full service line would deliver.

lucernarian

IE 222 wrote: »

What your purposing is essentially spending €50 million on a bit of housekeeping of the line. €50 million for about 5-10% of the benefit a full service line would deliver.

By dual tracking? The demand between the two towns wouldn't require that, other places like Limerick and Galway need it far more too.

If it's for onwards service to Dublin, with electrification and hopefully expanded enterprise service, there's no hope of fitting even more trains onto the northern line. If several sections of triple tracking throughout Dublin city and county can't be done without exorbitant costs as some allege, then Navan to Dublin services need to be done via pace/Clonsilla.

I don't think it would be even anywhere near €50 million to provide a 3rd platform at Drogheda, reopening Navan and Duleek, and providing radio coverage towards Navan. Is there a rulebook difference between freight and pax lines where level crossings are concerned? I've seen estimates for level crossing replacement plans before, doesn't appear to be anything like 1 million each to automate any.

donvito99

Even if a Navan - Drogheda - Connolly service was as slow as or slower than the bus service, the capacity of even one train would surely provide subtantial relief to commuters. One 4 car 29000 would carry the equivalent of 7-8 BÉ double decker on the NX.

IE 222

lucernarian wrote: »

By dual tracking? The demand between the two towns wouldn't require that, other places like Limerick and Galway need it far more too.

If it's for onwards service to Dublin, with electrification and hopefully expanded enterprise service, there's no hope of fitting even more trains onto the northern line. If several sections of triple tracking throughout Dublin city and county can't be done without exorbitant costs as some allege, then Navan to Dublin services need to be done via pace/Clonsilla.

I don't think it would be even anywhere near €50 million to provide a 3rd platform at Drogheda, reopening Navan and Duleek, and providing radio coverage towards Navan. Is there a rulebook difference between freight and pax lines where level crossings are concerned? I've seen estimates for level crossing replacement plans before, doesn't appear to be anything like 1 million each to automate any.

Its make zero sense to upgrade the line without the emphasis of forward travel to Dublin.

Double tracking is not essential but for maximum optimisation it should be extended to Duleek and double the Navan section of line. Most of the infrastructure in these sections would allow for double tracking. Big difference between 5 miles versus 100 miles of double tracking.

In terms of capacity you need to look beyond current levels and look at Dart expansion. Even without quad and treble tracking the northern line will offer more capacity over the Maynooth line in my opinion. As the M3 line is scheduled to be a shuttle service any extension to Navan will take away from Maynooth and would require the Navan service to become an all stops Dart extending the original expected journey time or Navan would be merely a shuttle service feeding into Maynooth trains.

Maynooth line will take 16tph. Dart will take 15 of them paths and sligo the remaining 1.

Glasnevin jct will need to handle 32 movements. Unless Connolly gets a major remodeling. 24 of these need operate via Drumcondra with 16 going into Connolly(10) and LLB(6) and 8(PPT) going into Spencer Dock. On top of that but to a lesser extent freight and stock transfers via PPT will also use the Glasnevin.

Northern line will have 18tph. Dart will take 10, Semi fast 5(2 Connolly 3 Spencer Dock) and Enterprise 2. The LLB can take 12 Northern line services versus 3 Maynooth line services meaning Navan could run onwards to GCD or Dun Laoghaire via northern line. As a Navan service would serve Drogheda it would be rather easy to advance 2 or 3 of the semi fast onwards to Navan while keeping the current pathing. 6 of the Dart path will travel onwards to Drogheda. It could be possible to swap Clongriffin to 6 and Drogheda to 4 Darts and allow an extra semi fast.

Turning back in Clongriffin and using Spencer Dock reduces the need for continuous quad tracking. Quad tracking something like Rush and Lusk - Balbriggan would be efficient enough imo (and an awful lot cheaper) as well as extending loops from Clongriffin to Howth Jct. and ideally extending the wash road north of Clontarf soley for Connolly terminating and Spencer Dock services. This should also increase capacity to 20-22 tph which is the same level DU was achieving.