pharmacies and drug laws?

ygolometsipe · 22-08-2020 04:34PM #1

A few months into covid, I stared thinking well if I get it, I am quarantined for two weeks, so I should get flu/cold remedies now.

However when I went to tesco I never saw "drowsy" cough syrup. Eventually I realized this can only be bought in a pharmacy.

This "awakened" my views on drugs and pharmacies. The last pharmacy I visited even has aspirin in the "locked window".

Does anyone else think this is really strange. I mean in tesco you can buy
a case of whiskey (which is far more damaging) and no one bats an eye lid.

However you cannot buy two packs of paracetamol (despite the obvious fact that Tesco is everywhere an you could clearly go across the road)

What is the nature of this policy? it seems really strange.

I know in the USA/Canada (Ireland prescription level) drugs are freely available in pharmacists however the opioid epidemic was a doctor prescription issue.

what percentage of people in Ireland are abusing drugs at such a level that asprin need to be locked away?

I recently read a report that cannabis/cocaine and alcohol are the most widely used drugs in Ireland and can be bough online and delivered via the web/dark web.

is it odd or am i wrong?

degsie · 22-08-2020 04:36PM

Obvious solution is cannabis/cocaine on the shelves in Tesco. Sorted!

Atlantic Dawn · 22-08-2020 04:37PM

It's because people would "do away" with themselves if they could buy 2 packs in the same shop. If they had to go to 2 shops and buy a pack in each they would be perfectly safe...at least that's their idiotic plan.

Water John · 22-08-2020 04:38PM

One over dose of paracetemol can damage you liver TMK. Takes a long time drinking alcohol to achieve that.

Pkiernan · 22-08-2020 04:42PM

Try buying Sudafed in the US

22-08-2020 04:43PM

2 packs of paracetamol will end up with you needing an infusion of acetylcysteine to stop acute liver failure. It is definitely far more dangerous than a bottle of whisky.

Also, a lot of paracetamol overdoses are spontaneous acts which when the person realises they can't get 2 packs, they can't be arsed going to another pharmacy to get more paracetamol.

Solpadeine abuse is the biggest addiction problem in ireland outside of alcohol and cigarettes.

ygolometsipe · 22-08-2020 05:10PM

Deleted User wrote: »

2 packs of paracetamol will end up with you needing an infusion of acetylcysteine to stop acute liver failure. It is definitely far more dangerous than a bottle of whisky.

Also, a lot of paracetamol overdoses are spontaneous acts which when the person realises they can't get 2 packs, they can't be arsed going to another pharmacy to get more paracetamol.

Solpadeine abuse is the biggest addiction problem in ireland outside of alcohol and cigarettes.

Ok but Tesco has no restriction on the amount of alcohol you can purchase. i.e. a person could buy just one bottle of whiskey and drink all of it in one go. That has a very high chance of death and if they but two bottles, its almost a certainty.

While I agree with your description on the severity of paracetamol if abused, your post does not explain the rationality of the policy.

I mean you can die if you drink 8 liters of water in a very short period.

you say "when the person realises they can't get 2 packs, they can't be arsed going to another pharmacy to get more paracetamol."

How do you know this? Do you have any link to a study?

Your post is a little contradictory, on one hand you demonstrate a scenario where a person is determined to end their life and chooses to do so with paracetamol but is "not arsed" to walk across the street.
That same individual has a far far higher chance of death with alcohol but they dont go this route because?

Are you saying a person is determined but irrational or determined and rational?

Also, what percentage of society are we talking about. What issues are in society that "asprin" needs to be locked up? As far as I know you cannot get a "high" from asprint.

We tolerate cars yet we know they kill ~ 300-500 people per year. How many people in Ireland are dying from paracetamol overdose / asprin overdose?

How many people die from alcohol?

Timberrrrrrrr · 22-08-2020 05:12PM

Pkiernan wrote: »

Try buying Sudafed in the US

Try buying a kinder egg lol

lawrencesummers · 22-08-2020 05:18PM

I have a lot of fun buying codeine for pain relief.
If the pharmacist says anything I say with a straight face that it’s for period pain.

I don’t have the apparatus for periods. They never question it further.

22-08-2020 05:28PM

ygolometsipe wrote: »

Ok but Tesco has no restriction on the amount of alcohol you can purchase. i.e. a person could buy just one bottle of whiskey and drink all of it in one go. That has a very high chance of death and if they but two bottles, its almost a certainty.

While I agree with your description on the severity of paracetamol if abused, your post does not explain the rationality of the policy.

I mean you can die if you drink 8 liters of water in a very short period.

you say "when the person realises they can't get 2 packs, they can't be arsed going to another pharmacy to get more paracetamol."

How do you know this? Do you have any link to a study?

Your post is a little contradictory, on one hand you demonstrate a scenario where a person is determined to end their life and chooses to do so with paracetamol but is "not arsed" to walk across the street.
That same individual has a far far higher chance of death with alcohol but they dont go this route because?

Are you saying a person is determined but irrational or determined and rational?

Also, what percentage of society are we talking about. What issues are in society that "asprin" needs to be locked up? As far as I know you cannot get a "high" from asprint.

We tolerate cars yet we know they kill ~ 300-500 people per year. How many people in Ireland are dying from paracetamol overdose / asprin overdose?

How many people die from alcohol?

Aspirin isn't a pharmacy only medication. It can be bought in a supermarket. I have no idea why it would be behind a counter. Maybe, ask that pharmacist if you are concerned.

You seem to have very little understanding of what a person with suicidal ideation experiences when they have onset of impulsivity. Little breaks like this can be the step they need to try diversion techniques/ call someone.

It is difficult to take on board an amount of alcohol that could kill you in one sitting. Water would be similar.

By the time, your body reacts to high paracetamol levels in your body, it is too late. Vomitting won't help. The only treatment is IV acetylcysteine.

Here is a study that showed a decrease in paracetamol overdoses.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1831716/

22-08-2020 05:29PM

lawrencesummers wrote: »

I have a lot of fun buying codeine for pain relief.
If the pharmacist says anything I say with a straight face that it’s for period pain.

I don’t have the apparatus for periods. They never question it further.

If you are buying co-codamol for pain relief. You probably need to get to the root cause of your pain. Especially if you have a "go to" strategy for obtaining said addictive substance.

odyssey06 · 22-08-2020 05:32PM

AH answer: The rot set in when they rid of the cocaine in Coca Cola and banned laudenum.

ygolometsipe · 22-08-2020 05:37PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Aspirin...]

You are making conjectures that are not consistent.
You posted a study to the impact of paracetamol which I already stated
I agree with you so there was no need to post that but im happy if it helps other readers.

The study I asked you for was the one where you claim "when the person realises they can't get 2 packs, they can't be arsed going to another pharmacy to get more paracetamol"

I will suspend all discussion with you until you can prove this claim.

ygolometsipe · 22-08-2020 05:41PM

lawrencesummers wrote: »

I have a lot of fun buying codeine for pain relief.
If the pharmacist says anything I say with a straight face that it’s for period pain.

I don’t have the apparatus for periods. They never question it further.

I hope you know codeine is a very serious drug! it can lead you into real trouble.
I hope you are well, I wont judge you, you could be well capable of understanding it.

22-08-2020 05:42PM

ygolometsipe wrote: »

You are making conjectures that are not consistent.
You posted a study to the impact of paracetamol which I already stated
I agree with you so there was no need to post that but im happy if it helps other readers.

The study I asked you for was the one where you claim "when the person realises they can't get 2 packs, they can't be arsed going to another pharmacy to get more paracetamol"

I will suspend all discussion with you until you can prove this claim.

The study suggests that the restriction on pack size has led to a modest reduction in suicide attempts with paracetamol/aspirin. This suggests by making obtaining the paracetamol/aspirin more difficult, it leads to a reduction in suicide attempts.

I don't know how I could simplify it for you more.

You can suspend the discussion if you like as you don't seem to be able to understand the data.

ygolometsipe · 22-08-2020 05:44PM

Deleted User wrote: »

The study suggests that the restriction on pack size has led to a modest reduction in suicide attempts with paracetamol/aspirin. This suggests by making obtaining the paracetamol/aspirin more difficult, it leads to a reduction in suicide attempts.

I don't know how I could simplify it for you more.

You can suspend the discussion if you like as you don't seem to be able to understand the data.

Did i say anything about packet size?

ygolometsipe · 22-08-2020 05:47PM

Deleted User wrote: »

The study suggests that the restriction on pack size has led to a modest reduction in suicide attempts with paracetamol/aspirin. This suggests by making obtaining the paracetamol/aspirin more difficult, it leads to a reduction in suicide attempts.

I don't know how I could simplify it for you more.

You can suspend the discussion if you like as you don't seem to be able to understand the data.

"It is the lack of statistically significant and consistent changes in the relative rates of deaths for paracetamol versus coincidental changes for other drugs (Table 4 in [1]) that lead the authors to conclude that the regulations may have had no effect."

22-08-2020 05:48PM

ygolometsipe wrote: »

Did i say anything about packet size?

Limiting pack size/ number of packets. It leads to the same thing of restricting the amount of paracetamol that can be obtained in one go ergo more difficult.

I agree it's a bit paternalistic but it has an effect/ rationale behind it.

22-08-2020 05:51PM

ygolometsipe wrote: »

"It is the lack of statistically significant and consistent changes in the relative rates of deaths for paracetamol versus coincidental changes for other drugs (Table 4 in [1]) that lead the authors to conclude that the regulations may have had no effect."

Read the conclusion, my good man.

What is the lesson for regulators in the UK and elsewhere from these studies on paracetamol regulation in the UK? We think they provide some further evidence that changes in drug availability and packaging can lead to reductions in deaths from self harm. However, the changes may be much less than anticipated if they cannot be enforced.

Morgan et al.'s study also indicates the benefits of having national databases on deaths from poisoning. These databases could be further strengthened by having more information routinely collected and regularly audited for accuracy. At the moment such databases are more than adequate for determining priorities for public health interventions but less than ideal for evaluating these same interventions. We would heartily endorse the authors' proposal to ensure that prospective evaluation is an integral part of such public health interventions. When this happens, we will know that evidence-based public health is more than just a slogan.

We can all pick one sentence to suit our agendas if you want.

ygolometsipe · 22-08-2020 05:51PM

I am not trying to pick a fight but if you make a claim, you need to back it up!
Your own study post claimed it made no different but I never brought packet size into the mix.

Anyway, like I say.....

The study I asked you for was the one where you claim "when the person realises they can't get 2 packs, they can't be arsed going to another pharmacy to get more paracetamol"

I will suspend all discussion with you until you can prove this claim.

Sarn · 22-08-2020 06:02PM

Here’s one that supports the restriction on pack size in the UK.

https://www.bmj.com/content/346/bmj.f403

odyssey06 · 22-08-2020 06:05PM

The maximum pack size for paracetamol in ROI is 24... in the UK it seems to be 32.
Doesn't seem to have any basis in harm reduction.
Unless by harm you mean protecting cosy cartel of pharmacies here from competition

22-08-2020 06:13PM

Pkiernan wrote: »

Try buying Sudafed in the US

That’s nothing to do with protecting people etc it’s because the pseudoephedrine gets extracted to make meth.

You can buy a packet of 200 ibuprofen or paracetamol off the shelf no problem over there which would be unheard of in Ireland.

Ireland is overly strict though even compared to other European countries where you can get plenty off the shelf that’s prescription here (and far more expansive). There are pain killers I use that are prescription only and I can buy a box of 100 for pittance off the shelf in Spain.

SEPT 23 1989 · 22-08-2020 06:16PM

ygolometsipe · 22-08-2020 06:20PM

odyssey06 wrote: »

The maximum pack size for paracetamol in ROI is 24... in the UK it seems to be 32.
Doesn't seem to have any basis in harm reduction.
Unless by harm you mean protecting cosy cartel of pharmacies here from competition

what is the maximum size for walking to another tesco?

22-08-2020 06:27PM

odyssey06 wrote: »

The maximum pack size for paracetamol in ROI is 24... in the UK it seems to be 32.
Doesn't seem to have any basis in harm reduction.
Unless by harm you mean protecting cosy cartel of pharmacies here from competition

You think pharmacists make their money on selling paracetamol. I wish.

In all seriousness though, patient safety is front and foremost of my mind in my work as a pharmacist.

global23214124 · 22-08-2020 06:35PM

My doctor prescribed me 100 pills of paracetamol for when i had a stomach bug a few months ago (along with relevant meds). Didn't realise it was so dangerous in high amounts. Didn't take much of it to be fair as the other stuff did the job but I'll be weary from now on.

endofrainbow · 22-08-2020 06:35PM

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Try buying a kinder egg lol

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/the-us-is-finally-lifting-its-ban-on-kinder-eggs-a3691696.html

endofrainbow · 22-08-2020 06:38PM

global23214124 wrote: »

My doctor prescribed me 100 pills of paracetamol for when i had a stomach bug a few months ago (along with relevant meds). Didn't realise it was so dangerous in high amounts. Didn't take much of it to be fair as the other stuff did the job but I'll be weary from now on.

to be fair you'd be weary if you did take too much.

Pharmacists will tell you about taking too much paracetemol when dispensing plus there's warnings on all labels

odyssey06 · 22-08-2020 06:38PM

Deleted User wrote: »

You think pharmacists make their money on selling paracetamol. I wish.
In all seriousness though, patient safety is front and foremost of my mind in my work as a pharmacist.

That's a good attitude re: patient safety.

But when 32 pack generic paracetamol is selling for less than 1 pound in N Ireland and a 24 pack here sells for €2.50 someone is making money on it and neither the patient's wallet or safety is coming into it.

odyssey06 · 22-08-2020 06:40PM

endofrainbow wrote: »

to be fair you'd be weary if you did take too much.
Pharmacists will tell you about taking too much paracetemol when dispensing plus there's warnings on all labels

I think the bigger risk is buying paracetamol and another product which contains it... Fair chance many customers don't realise the other product contains paracertamol.

pharmacies and drug laws?

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