Parkrun..

The Black Oil · 18-08-2020 8:06pm

Boards 2022 trip to parkrun Paris.

Murph_D · 18-08-2020 11:31pm

robinph wrote: »

What issues do you see?

People who don't possess a smart phone not being able to do scanning as a volunteer is a change to the inclusiveness of parkrun, they are aware of that change though. For now that is a change that would be necessary to be able to get parkrun back at all.

Are there other things?

My own experience with parkrun and junior parkrun, including a (short) while on the RD roster, is that the biggest and most time consuming weekly task is filling the volunteer roster. I know some events have a bigger problem than others with this, but there’s certainly little to suggest that volunteers will suddenly become more plentiful, after the excitement of the first few weeks of resumed activities abates. If anything, the challenge will be greater, and there will be more roles that some volunteers won’t want to do. Arguably tokens are the weak link, and until someone figures out a volunteer-friendly way to handle them, token duties will probably join scanning and timekeeping among those roles that are often avoided by the more casual or occasional volunteers.

I know all of these things are probably surmountable, once the guidance and regulations make a return possible, but I would be surprised if the overall volunteer problems aren’t exacerbated.

ger664 · 19-08-2020 12:16pm

As an RD I have no problem in telling people at the run brief sorry no run today not enough volunteers on the rooster to do it safely so yeah can all go home unless some people step up.

The one time I have done this the roles where filled on the spot and I had a plenty who stepped up for roles for the following week after the run.

Murph_D · 19-08-2020 12:29pm

ger664 wrote: »

As an RD I have no problem in telling people at the run brief sorry no run today not enough volunteers on the rooster to do it safely so yeah can all go home unless some people step up.

The one time I have done this the roles where filled on the spot and I had a plenty who stepped up for roles for the following week after the run.

I'd have no problem doing this either if I was still an RD. Doesn't necessarily go down well with all EDs though, or with parkrun HQl, from what I've heard anecdotally from one or two others.

ger664 · 19-08-2020 1:46pm

Murph_D wrote: »

I'd have no problem doing this either if I was still an RD. Doesn't necessarily go down well with all EDs though, or with parkrun HQl, from what I've heard anecdotally from one or two others.

As ED myself I have no problem with this. If there is not enough volunteers to safely run the event then it should not go ahead. HQ will never have a problem with this approach. The communication I have ever got from them is that the event should only proceed if its safe to do so and the RD on the day has the overall say in this regard.

Pawwed Rig · 19-08-2020 1:59pm

ger664 wrote: »

HQ will never have a problem with this approach.

That is not my understanding which is admittedly anecdotal (via brother who is RD). I heard HQ were not happy with an event being cancelled. It may be the same event that murph d alluded to in his post.

Duzzie · 19-08-2020 2:42pm

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

That is not my understanding which is admittedly anecdotal (via brother who is RD). I heard HQ were not happy with an event being cancelled. It may be the same event that murph d alluded to in his post.

HQs preference is for events to proceed with the health and safety roles covered. i.e. untimed.

Murph_D · 19-08-2020 3:07pm

Duzzie wrote: »

HQs preference is for events to proceed with the health and safety roles covered. i.e. untimed.

Junior parkrun is stricter. Event cannot proceed in any form without marshals, and you need a lot of marshals (all runners must be in sight of at least one).

robinph · 19-08-2020 5:00pm

Duzzie wrote: »

HQs preference is for events to proceed with the health and safety roles covered. i.e. untimed.

Initially at least, scanning of barcodes is a health and safety issue. Knowing who has participated is going to be one of the main things they are using to justify their return to the various government bodies and local authorities around the world.

But if they need 15 people scanning I don't think getting two people timing is going to be an issue. Faster finishers should make sure they have their phones on them and jump in to scan at the end.

ger664 · 19-08-2020 8:08pm

Duzzie wrote: »

HQs preference is for events to proceed with the health and safety roles covered. i.e. untimed.

Yes that would be the case once you had your mandatory roles covered.

I have been it the situation of been short a Marshall and Tail walker.

In the covid-19 framework I would expect that barcode scanning would now become a mandatory role and an event could not proceed without the role been filled

Murph_D · 19-08-2020 8:26pm

You can only scan them if they've been handed out!

average_runner · 20-08-2020 10:51am

ger664 wrote: »

Yes that would be the case once you had your mandatory roles covered.

I have been it the situation of been short a Marshall and Tail walker.

In the covid-19 framework I would expect that barcode scanning would now become a mandatory role and an event could not proceed without the role been filled

Parkrun is not a race so timing not important.

Anyone looking for a time will have their own timing device

robinph · 20-08-2020 11:12am

Murph_D wrote: »

You can only scan them if they've been handed out!

Handing out position tokens would always have been a requirement for a parkrun to go ahead, it didn't happen if you don't record who was there. But even more now they would need to know who was there.

There have been a couple of instances of events not being timed, although most times this is actually due to a stopwatch failure rather than nobody being there to press the button on the stopwatch.

Timing can be considered optional, and some marshal positions on some courses could even be considered optional, but recording who was there I think has always been about the most vital position for the event to be able to call itself a parkrun. If that be PSHCBEFRSE with a pen and paper, or people handing out tokens that are then scanned on a phone app.

chinguetti · 20-08-2020 11:14am

average_runner wrote: »

Parkrun is not a race so timing not important.

Anyone looking for a time will have their own timing device

But the scanning will probably be required for the contact tracing of people if there's a case ata parkrun so it may become such a role, not for the timing but for covid procedure.

TaurenDruid · 20-08-2020 11:35am

chinguetti wrote: »

But the scanning will probably be required for the contact tracing of people if there's a case ata parkrun so it may become such a role, not for the timing but for covid procedure.

Exactly this. Don't care about my times, want to see my parkrun friends, want us all to be safe. You absolutely need to have contact tracing.

MY BAD · 20-08-2020 11:37am

The scanning could be done by having a few devices on stands like a smaller version of the self checkouts in supermarkets. I'm not sure how they could hand out the chips.

In the medium term I can't see it working unless parkrun change their model a fair bit. First come first served of a maximum of what ever the guide lines at the time allow, sign a form saying you don't have a fever, in contact with anyone with covid etc. Pick up a chip, then have chip timing like any race, return the chip after the run. I can't see this happening

average_runner · 20-08-2020 11:48am

chinguetti wrote: »

But the scanning will probably be required for the contact tracing of people if there's a case ata parkrun so it may become such a role, not for the timing but for covid procedure.

Could use an app or the hse app.

No reason for scanning.

chinguetti · 20-08-2020 12:05pm

average_runner wrote: »

Could use an app or the hse app.

No reason for scanning.

If people do parkrun, most will want a time I would guess so it may not be parkrun as it was then. I do think that people could time themselves and that fixes that issue and you could have a mixture of the old way and not parkrun of compiling results. But that would be a slow process for RDs each week.

I know a few on here thought I was overly harsh saying that the parkrun would have trouble getting people to volunteer a couple of weeks back but I do think that will be the case. Not because of parkrun the organisation but because of people.

There appears to be more and more who are vectors of Covid and are just passing on the virus and not enough is known about it yet. If someone is after exercising and then stops, they will be out of breath and sweating. Both your breath and your sweat in droplets from your mouth or your body can spread the disease. That makes scanning an issue as that is the closest volutneers are to runners/walkers and the highest risk area in my mind.

adrian522 · 20-08-2020 12:26pm

chinguetti wrote: »

If people do parkrun, most will want a time I would guess so it may not be parkrun as it was then. I do think that people could time themselves and that fixes that issue and you could have a mixture of the old way and not parkrun of compiling results. But that would be a slow process for RDs each week.

I know a few on here thought I was overly harsh saying that the parkrun would have trouble getting people to volunteer a couple of weeks back but I do think that will be the case. Not because of parkrun the organisation but because of people.

There appears to be more and more who are vectors of Covid and are just passing on the virus and not enough is known about it yet. If someone is after exercising and then stops, they will be out of breath and sweating. Both your breath and your sweat in droplets from your mouth or your body can spread the disease. That makes scanning an issue as that is the closest volutneers are to runners/walkers and the highest risk area in my mind.

The virus isn't spread through sweat.

As the new coronavirus is spreading, be cautious about all possible exposures, including at the gym or fitness center. The virus isn’t spread through perspiration (sweat), but items touched by many people (barbells, etc.) could pose a risk

https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/coronavirus/coronavirus-frequently-asked-questions#:~:text=As%20the%20new%20coronavirus%20is,.)%20could%20pose%20a%20risk.

chinguetti · 20-08-2020 12:28pm

adrian522 wrote: »

The virus isn't spread through sweat.

https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/coronavirus/coronavirus-frequently-asked-questions#:~:text=As%20the%20new%20coronavirus%20is,.)%20could%20pose%20a%20risk.

Fair enough

robinph · 20-08-2020 12:59pm

MY BAD wrote: »

The scanning could be done by having a few devices on stands like a smaller version of the self checkouts in supermarkets. I'm not sure how they could hand out the chips.

In the medium term I can't see it working unless parkrun change their model a fair bit. First come first served of a maximum of what ever the guide lines at the time allow, sign a form saying you don't have a fever, in contact with anyone with covid etc. Pick up a chip, then have chip timing like any race, return the chip after the run. I can't see this happening

The scanning using the app isn't a problem as the person doing the scanning uses their own phone, the parkrunner holds both the barcodes out and then drops the position token in a bucket. No need for any contact between parkrunner and scanner or for anyone to touch anything.

Handing the position tokens out is the weak point that does require contact between an item that two people will touch, but it's really not too tricky to work around. Tokens are cleaned after the previous use, given to token hander outer, token hander outer takes token and give it to parkrunner, potentially have the token hander outer wearing gloves but that significantly slows down the speed of handing out at the massive events...which is why finish funnels need to be extended. parkrunner then gets token scanned and drops it in the bucket to be cleaned.

There are issues with the cleaning and sorting of tokens is then something that can't be done in the cafe afterwards so will fall on the RD/ ED presumably, but if a way to resolve that staffing issue (time and manpower to clean and sort) can be figured out there isn't an infection issue with the tokens as there is no need for anyone to touch them with their bare hands other than the parkrunner and they get cleaned and have a week sat in a box between uses.

parkrun definitely won't be changing to being a restricted number of people taking part or first come first served. If that is the requirement for running activities to happen long term then they will just shut down as it would break the whole point of parkrun too much.

DeepBlue · 20-08-2020 1:22pm

The scanning issue is going to be more of a problem than implied in the framework.

Anyone who had done scanning knows that there is a certain percentage of tokens (both athlete and finish tokens) that don't scan very well.

In pre Covid times that just meant a delay while trying a few times to get the scanner to read the barcode which, at worst, could lead to a backlog developing. Now that backlog has other connotations with bunching of runners in the finish tunnel the last thing you want.

Ideas of automatic scanners won't work. Scanning is flakey at best due to poor quality of reused barcodes wearing over time and varying camera qualities on smartphones. Washing the barcodes weekly is only going to accelerate the wear and tear on them and render them even harder to scan.

SnappyDresser · 20-08-2020 1:27pm

I would be quite happy if Parkrun either did
#Just put a clock at the finish line and you could see your time as you went over finish line. I do not personally need to see it up in an website every week with my finishing place. Knowing my time would be good enough for me

#Give every parkrun user possibility of purchasing a finishing chip which simply activates on the finish line

No need for tokens, scanners, clock timers, no need for people to Q up for scanning etc.
A simpler world no doubt and not to everyones taste I know

robinph · 20-08-2020 1:57pm

DeepBlue wrote: »

The scanning issue is going to be more of a problem than implied in the framework.

Anyone who had done scanning knows that there is a certain percentage of tokens (both athlete and finish tokens) that don't scan very well.

In pre Covid times that just meant a delay while trying a few times to get the scanner to read the barcode which, at worst, could lead to a backlog developing. Now that backlog has other connotations with bunching of runners in the finish tunnel the last thing you want.

Ideas of automatic scanners won't work. Scanning is flakey at best due to poor quality of reused barcodes wearing over time and varying camera qualities on smartphones. Washing the barcodes weekly is only going to accelerate the wear and tear on them and render them even harder to scan.

The delays in scanning and queues building up are recognised in the framework document. That is why they say to move the scanners further away from the end of the finish funnels and to aim for person scanning per 50 finishers based on the average recent turnouts at the event. That could mean a massive number of people scanning at some events in theory, but getting the first few finishers to join in with the scanning will cover the busy finishing time periods and should mostly eliminate the backlogs.

A few of the other first finishers who didn't run with their phones can then also assist with "encouraging" people to keep moving through the funnel and directing them towards where the scanners are located so making sure there isn't an increase in tokens going missing.

Might need more people with clipboards writing down numbers that don't scan, but you just get the parkrunner to read out the numbers for the person with the clipboard and there is still no need to have any contact between people or items. If they can't read it then just tell them to reprint it for the next week as they would do normally for unscannable barcodes.

robinph · 20-08-2020 2:02pm

i008787 wrote: »

I would be quite happy if Parkrun either did
#Just put a clock at the finish line and you could see your time as you went over finish line. I do not personally need to see it up in an website every week with my finishing place. Knowing my time would be good enough for me

#Give every parkrun user possibility of purchasing a finishing chip which simply activates on the finish line

No need for tokens, scanners, clock timers, no need for people to Q up for scanning etc.
A simpler world no doubt and not to everyones taste I know

Those things won't happen because it breaks the simplicity of parkrun for the volunteers and the costs of having clocks setup at the finish. Using chips for timing is also a massive expense for parkrun to setup for 2000+ events and then getting people to purchase a chip in order to participate breaks the inclusive requirement from parkrun. They would already like if there was a way to eliminate the barriers to certain people just caused by the need to register on a website and print a barcode out.

Great Run, as in Great North Run, do a thing with chip timing I belive. It's all a bit random as to what days, what distances, and where their events take place and the need to pay to participate isn't great for getting new people into being active.

TaurenDruid · 20-08-2020 2:52pm

None of this is insurmountable and the only problem I'd see is in funnel backlogs - but you make those longer and address them as outlined above by robin. The mail advertising the return of parkruns can include "Please print out a fresh barcode, get it laminated if possible" line. Barcode scanners were quite flaky (and how many will have flat batteries after not being charged for months) but I've never seen anyone have problems using the app on their phone - everyone who has used it swears by it and is reluctant to go back to the hardware scanner.

Ted_YNWA · 20-08-2020 4:28pm

On the phone scanning, you can scan both at the same time, so this could speed up the process as well.

Murph_D · 20-08-2020 5:27pm

Ted_YNWA wrote: »

On the phone scanning, you can scan both at the same time, so this could speed up the process as well.

That’s interesting, didn’t realise that. Phone scanning is definitely the way forward. In fact I believe it’s default for new events (when there were new events).

DeepBlue · 25-08-2020 4:53pm

Latest update:

https://blog.parkrun.com/ie/2020/08/25/covid-19-coronavirus-update-25-august/

Whilst right now we are not ready to commit to specific dates, we do remain positive that some parkrun countries could reopen before the end of October.

Interesting. First time I've seen a date mentioned, however tentative.

Seannew1 · 25-08-2020 4:57pm

Fingers crossed for October. However, not optimistic given our high cases. They are only going to get higher too with schools re-opening.

robinph · 25-08-2020 5:12pm

If the report they have commissioned is convincing enough about the lack of transmission happening in outdoor environments then they will have something to go to government and state authorities with. Could really do with New Zealand being opened up again first though, or at least their rugby season to keep going and have spectators in stadiums. Might just be a couple of Australian states that get the go ahead first though.

diceyreilly · 26-08-2020 2:59pm

Our government at the moment won’t allow more then 15 players train together.
Say we are a long way off parkrun unless there’s a huge swing and they say just get on with it ( outdoors.

robinph · 26-08-2020 6:16pm

diceyreilly wrote: »

Our government at the moment won’t allow more then 15 players train together.
Say we are a long way off parkrun unless there’s a huge swing and they say just get on with it ( outdoors.

If it is still restricted to 15 players in another months time then I'll be very surprised. Things will continue to change quite quickly as just a couple of months ago people weren't meant to leave the house. At some point it will be 50 people in a group, then 250, then 500 then parkrun will restart. Things might very well go backwards of course and lockdown returns, but it won't stay static with the current restrictions permanently.

average_runner · 26-08-2020 10:13pm

robinph wrote: »

If it is still restricted to 15 players in another months time then I'll be very surprised. Things will continue to change quite quickly as just a couple of months ago people weren't meant to leave the house. At some point it will be 50 people in a group, then 250, then 500 then parkrun will restart. Things might very well go backwards of course and lockdown returns, but it won't stay static with the current restrictions permanently.

Not sure about that. Our government hinting at national lockdowns again

Van.Bosch · 27-08-2020 4:27pm

average_runner wrote: »

Not sure about that. Our government hinting at national lockdowns again

That might just be for Phil Hogan

OOnegative · 07-09-2020 6:59pm

https://blog.parkrun.com/uk/2020/09/07/return-of-parkrun-announcement/

jimmii · 07-09-2020 7:17pm

Good to see it looking like it might be relatively soon. I wonder if they will do anything to try discourage those from just over the borders from attending.

Duzzie · 07-09-2020 7:17pm

OOnegative wrote: »

https://blog.parkrun.com/uk/2020/09/07/return-of-parkrun-announcement/

Opening English parkruns in advance is Scotland and Wales doesn't seem like a wise move. No word on Ireland.

jimmii · 07-09-2020 7:19pm

Duzzie wrote: »

Opening English parkruns in advance is Scotland and Wales doesn't seem like a wise move. No word on Ireland.

Does seem bizarre alright. Border runs will be pretty busy safe to say!

robinph · 07-09-2020 7:42pm

jimmii wrote: »

Does seem bizarre alright. Border runs will be pretty busy safe to say!

Being on one side of the border between England and Wales I'd not be overly concerned about numbers at the local events being overwhelmed. Would be if it was the other way round though. There is a couple of relatively small events on the Welsh side which could struggle if they were to open first, but the events on the English side here I think will barely notice an influx of numbers and there are enough of them that any mass influx will be spread around the area a good bit. Obviously will be different in other areas along the border, but along the E/W border I'm at the highest density population part of it.

My main problem is we'd been trying to figure out which event might work best for us with a non buggy riding 5 year old now and which course would work best for one of us to run whilst the other picked up stones with the kid, and that I'd then have the best chance of catching the tail marshal before the line. Was thinking a couple of the Welsh ones would work best for us, now need to rethink that idea.

average_runner · 07-09-2020 10:22pm

October is far away.still, alot could happen before then. Alot of cases today. William's has been a bit careless on Twitter lately in my opinion and I think this was another poor judgement call as 6 weeks is a long time.

average_runner · 07-09-2020 10:24pm

Griffeen is pretty crowded every sat morning with park runners doing their 5k st 9.30. A big group doing it

jimmii · 07-09-2020 10:33pm

robinph wrote: »

Being on one side of the border between England and Wales I'd not be overly concerned about numbers at the local events being overwhelmed. Would be if it was the other way round though. There is a couple of relatively small events on the Welsh side which could struggle if they were to open first, but the events on the English side here I think will barely notice an influx of numbers and there are enough of them that any mass influx will be spread around the area a good bit. Obviously will be different in other areas along the border, but along the E/W border I'm at the highest density population part of it.

My main problem is we'd been trying to figure out which event might work best for us with a non buggy riding 5 year old now and which course would work best for one of us to run whilst the other picked up stones with the kid, and that I'd then have the best chance of catching the tail marshal before the line. Was thinking a couple of the Welsh ones would work best for us, now need to rethink that idea.

Lol new parkrun challenges ahead for you by the sounds of it!

I was thinking the ~1k people who do a parkrun around Edinburgh all heading down to a border area one. There's only a couple that are really close to the border on the English side. The pastures on the east coast has 66 finishers on average the Carlisle one would probably be the one Glasgow folk go to that averages nearly 200 so could probably handle it easier.

chinguetti · 08-09-2020 8:45am

Strange that they have gone ahead and announced a date for this with cases rising in the UK over the last few days and the R numbers believed to be on the rise too. Also announcing it to the media and not via parkrun email to core teams first seems odd and not normally the way parkrun does things.

Also read a thread on Twitter about a doctor questioning why they are going to restart and pointing out the issues of running in groups and the risk of transmission. From reading it, alot of people seem to believe that the world can return to the way it was before and for now, that can't happen.

I'd like parkrun to be back up and running again btw but there seems to be undue haste to get going from what I've read.

py · 08-09-2020 9:35am

chinguetti wrote: »

Strange that they have gone ahead and announced a date for this with cases rising in the UK over the last few days and the R numbers believed to be on the rise too. Also announcing it to the media and not via parkrun email to core teams first seems odd and not normally the way parkrun does things.

Also read a thread on Twitter about a doctor questioning why they are going to restart and pointing out the issues of running in groups and the risk of transmission. From reading it, alot of people seem to believe that the world can return to the way it was before and for now, that can't happen.

I'd like parkrun to be back up and running again btw but there seems to be undue haste to get going from what I've read.

They seem to be putting a lot of weight in the study they just had completed, details of which were discussed on the Free Weekly Timed podcast recently.

robinph · 08-09-2020 9:36am

It was announced to certain people beforehand, possibly ambassador levels, but was embargoed until 6:50pm. They then released the FWT podcast and the various twitter and Facebook posts at the same time at 7pm.

Just had a quick check on the parkrun events map and I'm right in the middle of the main area which might have border crossing parkrunners, but as said I don't think it will be a problem this way round with the relative event sizes. There are a few parkruns around North Wales border, but less people live there and its unlikely to be a major issue with parkrunners heading across to Chester. As for the Scottish border there are minimal parkruns close to it and minimal major population centres. There will be a few people driving the 2hrs 40mins from Edinburgh to Newcastle, but not enough to make a difference... And they would have to leave even earlier as well due to the different start times.

Likewise, there will be some people drive from Cardiff to Bristol, but there is loads of events that numbers won't be noticed or overwhelm any event (well there is one which could do without any increase in numbers, but that has been cancelled due to a soggy course for months before lockdown and with the first bit of rain is unlikely to return anyway).

DeepBlue · 08-09-2020 11:21am

To my mind if they are opening pubs (indoors for an hour and 45 mins?) then really there can be no logical objection to reopening parkruns (up to max of 40 mins for most people).

average_runner · 08-09-2020 12:40pm

DeepBlue wrote: »

To my mind if they are opening pubs (indoors for an hour and 45 mins?) then really there can be no logical objection to reopening parkruns (up to max of 40 mins for most people).

But all outdoor sports currently have a good contact tracing system where u sign up in advance. Parkrun will need to do this in order to start here

robinph · 08-09-2020 12:52pm

average_runner wrote: »

But all outdoor sports currently have a good contact tracing system where u sign up in advance. Parkrun will need to do this in order to start here

They already do have a system in place that is far more reliable than anything any pub or restaurant is doing, and certainly more than any list that any dog walker is keeping of who they might encounter on their stroll around the park with their pooch.

average_runner · 08-09-2020 2:42pm

robinph wrote: »

They already do have a system in place that is far more reliable than anything any pub or restaurant is doing, and certainly more than any list that any dog walker is keeping of who they might encounter on their stroll around the park with their pooch.

Again I said sport and that's the standard they have to get to.
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