Luas Finglas

Alvin Holler · 28-07-2020 6:58pm

orangerhyme wrote: »

Yes I mean in timescale of 30 to 50 years, quite a bit of the investment is paid back in increased tax revenue.
Also lots of ancillary benefits like social benefits and increased investment in the area.

Property tax is payable on the value of the house in 2013. Until a government changes that it, a luas won't make a difference to tax revenue

Muahahaha · 29-07-2020 3:31pm

Alvin Holler wrote: »

Property tax is payable on the value of the house in 2013. Until a government changes that it, a luas won't make a difference to tax revenue

No but I think it is on the government agenda but it hasnt happened yet as it is a political hot potato. But a re-valuation has to happen at some stage, we cant go on paying property taxes at 2013 house price valuations forever. Revenue are leaving millions on the table there and the Govt. will be forced to call it in if the unemployment situation carries on as it is.

Anyway just looking at the Luas route itself I think credit has to be given to TII/NTA for how it uses parks to remain separated from the N2, I think it is quite a clever route. I had always presumed they would get it over the Tolka Valley and then onto the N2 as quickly as possible meaning shared running with Dublin Bus which obviously wouldnt have worked very well. The route itself hits a nice sweet spot in that it goes through the residential areas of St.Helenas and Finglas village, Mellows Park and avoids any shared running on the N2.

It will be interesting to see how they tackle St Margarets Road as they will have to maintain access to Lidl, Aldi and the Jamestown Industrial Park. Probably will have to go with 2 Luas lines and a single one way car lane with Dublin Bus being allowed bi-directional shared running on the Luas tracks

L1011 · 29-07-2020 4:01pm

ncounties wrote: »

Where?! *Genuine Interest*

Sandymount area has been kite-flown by some politicians. So about as solid as a suggestions made on here! This is not the same as the more likely to happen extension of the Red Line over the Liffey to Ringsend.

The original Line F plan ends at Trinity.

Last Stop · 29-07-2020 4:06pm

MJohnston wrote: »

You're overthinking this a touch:

Green is existing on/off slips from the M2. Blue is where you could add additional slip roads if you wanted. But this wouldn't necessary, as Elm Road is only 2km from M2 Junction 2, and the existing volumes on this old N2 are extremely low.

So - no additional M2 junction needed really.

The red area is all non-functional space, potentially usable as park and ride, without having to extend the Luas track very far at all.

Elm Rd is a private road for an industrial estate so a non-runner.
Without it, you need a new road bridge over the N2.
In that context (and justifiably), the proposed location has been chosen.

Its worth bearing in mind that the P+R will only have 600 spaces. That's not that significant especially when you consider that for years to get to the Red Cow you had to go through Newlands Cross junction and then make that hairpin turn to cross over the N7. The route to Charlestown is far more direct especially with junction improvement works as eluded to in the report.

Long term there may be merit in extending the line over the M50 (with a potential new depot to compensate for future Metrolink green line upgrade)
and to tie in with Metrolink at Dardistown but given the cost that would add to the project, this is the best solution in the interim.

This will be the fifth luas extension since it opened in 2004 so we are averaging an extension every 5 years which demonstrates the success of the system.

L1011 · 29-07-2020 4:35pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

No but I think it is on the government agenda but it hasnt happened yet as it is a political hot potato. But a re-valuation has to happen at some stage, we cant go on paying property taxes at 2013 house price valuations forever. Revenue are leaving millions on the table there and the Govt. will be forced to call it in if the unemployment situation carries on as it is.

The way it'll likely be spun is "all those people who got Help To Buy a new house are escaping tax to repay the state, we need to fix that!" - as HTB only applied to new houses and anything built post 2013 is exempt due to having no valuation.

Alvin Holler · 29-07-2020 4:48pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

No but I think it is on the government agenda but it hasnt happened yet as it is a political hot potato. But a re-valuation has to happen at some stage, we cant go on paying property taxes at 2013 house price valuations forever. Revenue are leaving millions on the table there and the Govt. will be forced to call it in if the unemployment situation carries on as it

You never know. Council tax in London is based on the value of the property in 1991.

Sam Russell · 29-07-2020 5:11pm

They could just base the LPT on the purchase price for any house built after 2013.

It might be unjust and so precipitate a revaluation.

Yellow_Fern · 29-07-2020 6:22pm

Does this line really make sense? It just seems to add to the congestion and that we need proper metros not huge tram line networks.

Sam Russell · 29-07-2020 6:53pm

They should extend the red line from Heuston along the North Circular to Broadstone, and possibly onto Ballybough. It would increase connectivity on the Northside.

orangerhyme · 29-07-2020 7:46pm

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

Does this line really make sense? It just seems to add to the congestion and that we need proper metros not huge tram line networks.

It's relatively cheap and easy and brilliant for the area.

Lots of new apartments planned for Jamestown Rd area also.

Yellow_Fern · 29-07-2020 7:48pm

orangerhyme wrote: »

It's relatively cheap and easy and brilliant for the area.

Lots of new apartments planned for Jamestown Rd area also.

My point is that the Luas is very crowded as it is and will slow down road traffic and that the money might be better spent in bigger investments metro.

markpb · 29-07-2020 8:07pm

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

My point is that the Luas is very crowded as it is and will slow down road traffic and that the money might be better spent in bigger investments metro.

A metro would be preferable but Luas can be constructed in a shorter timeframe, for an awful lot less money and still carry a decent number of people. The impact to traffic should be minimal because of the path they’re proposing and even if it wasn’t, a tram carrying 300 passengers is far more efficient than the cars its impacting so the net result is still more people moving.

Plus Luas has the advantage that it’s politically popular whereas metro construction in Ireland still falls foul of people who think Dublin isn’t big enough or dense enough to need a metro.

L1011 · 29-07-2020 8:22pm

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

My point is that the Luas is very crowded as it is and will slow down road traffic and that the money might be better spent in bigger investments metro.

The Luas from the city centre to/from Broombridge is not particularly crowded.

CatInABox · 29-07-2020 9:36pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

It will be interesting to see how they tackle St Margarets Road as they will have to maintain access to Lidl, Aldi and the Jamestown Industrial Park. Probably will have to go with 2 Luas lines and a single one way car lane with Dublin Bus being allowed bi-directional shared running on the Luas tracks

Detailed maps are up on the website, St Margarets Road will be two way with cycle lanes, with a fairly chunky amount of CPOs on either side of the road to make it wide enough for the two Luas tracks.

I've got to admire there ambition there.

They've also got an amusingly named "kiss and ride" facility at Charlestown.

Gumbo · 29-07-2020 10:45pm

orangerhyme wrote: »

It should confer slight benefits to the area but is obviously not a panacea.

I wonder what % of housing is council owned in south Finglas along the planned Luas line.

It seems to be the area bounded by Finglas road, Cappagh Road, Ratoath road and Tolka valley road which is most deprived with high anti social behavior. Would this quite large area be mostly council houses?

Yes I know the majority are decent people but I don't envy anyone trying to raise kids there.

Many many privately built and owned house sin that area you’ve listed which takes in parts of Finglas south, west and plain old Finglas.

Gumbo · 29-07-2020 10:48pm

Daith wrote: »

To swing it slightly back on topic, I can only see residents having an issue with the Luas going through the green at Farnham. This is used by local teams so seems the most likely issue. That and any property that might be impacted.

Other than that, it's hard to see too many objections. Any of the bus routes will cross the link so it's an easy connection for areas that aren't walk able to a Luas stop.

Biggest concerns I see are the route through the green space at Barnamore, splitting Farnham playing fields, the complete closure of the entrances to Wellmount parade and Patrick’s well court and flipping the entrances to the opposite sides which means the guys in the end of the cul de sac will now become the first house in and experience a complete u-turn on traffic volumes passing their front door.

Next issues is the cutting through the estate beside the Garda station, some land required.

paulbok · 30-07-2020 10:30am

CatInABox wrote: »

Detailed maps are up on the website, St Margarets Road will be two way with cycle lanes, with a fairly chunky amount of CPOs on either side of the road to make it wide enough for the two Luas tracks.

I've got to admire there ambition there.

They've also got an amusingly named "kiss and ride" facility at Charlestown.

Plenty of "frontage" along St Margaret's Rd that can be CPO'd, businesses such as Aldi and Lidl would loose a little car parking, but they are still a good size and they gain the advantage of being on a luas route.
There is only one tight point just after Aldi with residential houses one side and a takeaway the other before opening up again all the way to the terminus.
How they traverse from Cappagh Rd to Mellowes Rd and park might be more controversial when the time comes as it looks to follow Mellowes crescent, an estate Rd so will have to share road space as no real scope to widen.

While continuing it on and across the M50 alongside the R122 to a proper P&R facility (which could tie in the the Metro West if it ever happens in the future) makes so much sense, St Margaret's Rd isn't wide enough from half way along the shopping centre to the Bord Gais depot/offices, as the entrance for the shopping centre carpark takes up a lot of road width there. That stretch is already a traffic hotspot during peak times without sharing the road with a luas.
Unless they somehow could aquire some of the Bord Gais land next the shopping centre and redesign that entrance altogether.

roadmaster · 30-07-2020 11:04am

L1011 wrote: »

The Luas from the city centre to/from Broombridge is not particularly crowded.

I wouldn't say that i have often struggled to get on to it after i got of the train there

paulbok · 30-07-2020 12:21pm

L1011 wrote: »

The Luas from the city centre to/from Broombridge is not particularly crowded.

Is the capacity issue not with the trams crossing O'Connell Bridge? That there are already so frequent, it's causing havoc with rush hour car traffic travelling on the quays.
Add in extra carriages from Finglas and that only gets worse

MJohnston · 30-07-2020 12:34pm

paulbok wrote: »

Is the capacity issue not with the trams crossing O'Connell Bridge? That there are already so frequent, it's causing havoc with rush hour car traffic travelling on the quays.
Add in extra carriages from Finglas and that only gets worse

I don't think you're envisioning this correctly. O'Connell Bridge doesn't have to see any additional tram frequency for the Finglas extension to exist. There will be more trams on the line, but the line will also be longer, so the frequency at any one place will likely remain the same.

That said, even if frequency needed to increase, it shouldn't be prevented just because motorists are inconvenienced.

Alvin Holler · 30-07-2020 1:29pm

Not all trams that cross o'Connell bridge go to broombridge currently. Not sure what the ratio is but some turn around at the top of o'Connell st.
That's a lot of capacity available without adding additional trams.

piuswal · 30-07-2020 10:20pm

MJohnston wrote: »

I don't think you're envisioning this correctly. O'Connell Bridge doesn't have to see any additional tram frequency for the Finglas extension to exist. There will be more trams on the line, but the line will also be longer, so the frequency at any one place will likely remain the same.

That said, even if frequency needed to increase, it shouldn't be prevented just because motorists are inconvenienced.

While agreeing with your second paragraph, are you sure about the second line of the first one? Surely the length is irrelevant,it is the number of trams moving its length that determine the frequency at any point?

CatInABox · 30-07-2020 11:11pm

piuswal wrote: »

While agreeing with your second paragraph, are you sure about the second line of the first one? Surely the length is irrelevant,it is the number of trams moving its length that determine the frequency at any point?

It all plays into it, you can't really take one in isolation.

Let's say, for ease of use, that a line was 60k in length, with a single tram taking 1 hour to go from one end to the other. With 6 trams, you have a frequency of ten minutes.

Now double the length to 120k, with a single tram taking 2 hours to go the length. In order to maintain an even frequency, you now run your 6 trams every 20 minutes, otherwise you'll have 6 trams going one direction, and nothing going the other way for well over an hour, and then the other direction will have no service.

Increasing the number of trams will obviously solve this problem, i.e. 12 trams will bring you back to a ten minute frequency; however, if you pick a single point on the line and count the trams per hour going past, you wouldn't see a difference between the 60k/6 trams line, and the 120k/12 trams an hour line.

CatInABox · 31-07-2020 1:03am

paulbok wrote: »

There is only one tight point just after Aldi with residential houses one side and a takeaway the other before opening up again all the way to the terminus.

Looks like they're just taking the car parking spaces from the front and moving it around to the back of those four houses.

paulbok wrote: »

How they traverse from Cappagh Rd to Mellowes Rd and park might be more controversial when the time comes as it looks to follow Mellowes crescent, an estate Rd so will have to share road space as no real scope to widen.

Looks like there's enough room there, only one garden going to suffer a CPO, and even then it's probably less than a metre squared. The rest of the time it looks to be running on what is currently grass strips.

Zebra3 · 31-07-2020 2:07pm

Is there any plans for a bus service from Charlestown to the airport?

MJohnston · 31-07-2020 3:00pm

Not really likely to see any bus service plans for a long time when the Luas line is still 11 years away.

LXFlyer · 31-07-2020 4:23pm

MJohnston wrote: »

Not really likely to see any bus service plans for a long time when the Luas line is still 11 years away.

The 8 is part of Busconnects and will link the two.

annfield1978 · 02-08-2020 11:25am

Tenders for planning stage of this go in at end of August

Kevtherev1 · 02-08-2020 12:14pm

annfield1978 wrote: »

Tenders for planning stage of this go in at end of August

Poorly worded, can please be more specific and clearer to what you mean.

Do you mean tender is going out to hire engineer consultants to do detailed design of emerging route. Or something else and where is the source

Shedite27 · 02-08-2020 1:22pm

Kevtherev1 wrote: »

Poorly worded, can please be more specific and clearer to what you mean.

Do you mean tender is going out to hire engineer consultants to do detailed design of emerging route. Or something else and where is the source

Ironic post

Kevtherev1 · 17-08-2020 12:26pm

Found a short youtube video by shannon images limited. On the extending of the 26 green line luas trams to 55 meters by January 2021.

The video link is here to view.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dm_CBTGU-bk

petronius · 17-08-2020 12:47pm

extending the finglas luas from charelsetown to the airport bridging the m50 seems on a map to be viable.
Maybe a bit of a roundabout way to get to the terminal but surely in the scheme of things not that expensive
and could be an alternative while the MetroNorth/Link is being deferred again and again

Sam Russell · 17-08-2020 12:50pm

petronius wrote: »

extending the finglas luas from charelsetown to the airport bridging the m50 seems on a map to be viable.
Maybe a bit of a roundabout way to get to the terminal but surely in the scheme of things not that expensive
and could be an alternative while the MetroNorth/Link is being deferred again and again

The Finglas extension to the airport would suit a number of people. Not everyone wants to go to the city centre.

AngryLips · 17-08-2020 1:07pm

Well it would be well placed for a future terminal 3 perhaps if it goes the other side of the airport...

bk · 17-08-2020 1:54pm

I'd want to see MetroLink built first, or at least started digging.

While extending the Luas to Finglas would certainly be useful for some people to get to the Airport. It would certainly not serve the VAST majority of Metrolink users.

The danger of extending Luas to the Airport first, is that it would give an excuse to crappy politicians to scrap the desperately needed Metrolink.

AlmightyCushion · 18-08-2020 12:24am

bk wrote: »

I'd want to see MetroLink built first, or at least started digging.

While extending the Luas to Finglas would certainly be useful for some people to get to the Airport. It would certainly not serve the VAST majority of Metrolink users.

The danger of extending Luas to the Airport first, is that it would give an excuse to crappy politicians to scrap the desperately needed Metrolink.

100% this. You can practically hear them shouting 'We shouldn't be wasting billions on a rail link to the airport when the luas already goes there'. It would doom Metrolink.

Pete_Cavan · 18-08-2020 7:16am

Yes Metrolink is the priority and should be operational before Green Line extension to Finglas. With Metrolink in place, a further Green Line extension to the airport is really just a direct airport link for the people of Finglas. Anyone else will take Metro directly or switch to it. Finglas will have good interchange options for Metrolink anyway, lots of buses passing Glasnevin station, bus to Metro station at Collins Ave, Luas to BB + DART to Glasnevin. We have lots of other pt projects which should be higher on the priorities list than Luas from Finglas to the airport.

Muahahaha · 18-08-2020 11:35am

Ive always thought it should eventually go in to the airport. If there were to be a P&R just north of the M50N2 junction then from that point the airport is only about 3kms away and theres an easy route there running in a straight line parallel with the runway towards the terminal buildings.

But it shouldnt be done as a main link, rather to supplement Metrolink itself. Metrolink needs to be built not only for the airport traffic but also for Swords itself which is now Irelands fastest growing town with a population of 35,000+ that is growing even further. But would agree with bk that if the Luas went into the airport now it would give the politicians an 'out' on Metrolink altogether.

Theres no way a Luas could handle the volume of demand from the airport anyway with some 30 million passengers a year normally going through there. If the Finglas Luas were the only rail link it would be packed on departure at the terminal and no-one else would be able to get on it along the route, especually not with tourists wheeling suit cases. Heavy rail like a Metro is the only solution for that kind of demand.

LeinsterDub · 18-08-2020 11:42am

Finglas Luas shouldn't go to the Airport , link with ML north of Ballymun. A 6 km extension across green fields makes no sense

GerardKeating · 18-08-2020 12:02pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Finglas Luas shouldn't go to the Airport , link with ML north of Ballymun. A 6 km extension across green fields makes no sense

It does if you hope to get some "reward" from the green fields.

L1011 · 18-08-2020 12:04pm

Terminal 3 is never, ever, ever happening and the McEvaddys are unlikely to ever sell for another use as they convinced it is. So there's nothing to use those for.

Once there's the ability to link to ML at Ballymun, that is sufficient.

LeinsterDub · 18-08-2020 12:09pm

GerardKeating wrote: »

It does if you hope to get some "reward" from the green fields.

Most of the fields are in the airport exclusion zone , I believe

MJohnston · 18-08-2020 1:17pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Finglas Luas shouldn't go to the Airport , link with ML north of Ballymun. A 6 km extension across green fields makes no sense

Agree with this very much. You can't build on most of those green fields, as you say, because of the airport (of course, I suppose those rules could change at some point), and there's no real reason to go any further than Ballymun with the Luas.

Peregrine · 17-09-2020 3:35pm

The deadline for submissions is 5pm today.
https://www.luasfinglas.ie/#/haveyoursay

specialbyte · 18-09-2020 1:51pm

I've seen a few submission go up online.

Dublin Commuter Coalition (https://t.co/VLGW0N55Io?amp=1) want to see the line extended via IKEA to meet the Northwoods MetroLink stop and better links to Finglas village, among other things.

The Dublin Cycling Campaign want to see the cycle route be safe for people of all ages and all abilities and good cycle parking at all Luas stops. They also have concerns about the P&R being inside the M50, as that will bring hundreds of cars into the future residential area at Charlestown. (https://www.dublincycling.com/cycling/submission-finglas-luas-extension)

riddlinrussell · 18-09-2020 2:36pm

specialbyte wrote: »

I've seen a few submission go up online.

Dublin Commuter Coalition (https://t.co/VLGW0N55Io?amp=1) want to see the line extended via IKEA to meet the Northwoods Luas stop and better links to Finglas village, among other things.

The Dublin Cycling Campaign want to see the cycle route be safe for people of all ages and all abilities and good cycle parking at all Luas stops. They also have concerns about the P&R being inside the M50, as that will bring hundreds of cars into the future residential area at Charlestown. (https://www.dublincycling.com/cycling/submission-finglas-luas-extension)

I hope the P+R suggestions are taken seriously, it is total madness to have it inside the m50, fighting for space when there's green fields minutes away, the additional cost of an M50 bridge I feel would be well worth it.

roadmaster · 31-01-2021 3:49pm

I would presume the planners have taught about this but Pre Covid The Luas stop at brombridge would be packed at peak times with the commuter trains letting off large volumes of people .

When you look at the amount of apartments going up in Charlestown and potentially more along the route in order not to have the trams over capacity straight away i wonder should they consider not having a park & ride in Charlestown to deter extra people from using it and having it mainly as a public transport for people living along the route and commuters using other public transport to get there .

As unless trams are going to leave every minute by the time it gets in to brombridge there wont be room for anyone else.

LXFlyer · 31-01-2021 4:49pm

roadmaster wrote: »

I would presume the planners have taught about this but Pre Covid The Luas stop at brombridge would be packed at peak times with the commuter trains letting off large volumes of people .

When you look at the amount of apartments going up in Charlestown and potentially more along the route in order not to have the trams over capacity straight away i wonder should they consider not having a park & ride in Charlestown to deter extra people from using it and having it mainly as a public transport for people living along the route and commuters using other public transport to get there .

As unless trams are going to leave every minute by the time it gets in to brombridge there wont be room for anyone else.

You have to remember that under the current timetable, a maximum of 50% of trams are going to/from Broombridge - the rest turn at Parnell, so plenty of scope for extra services on the northern branch.

There’s also nothing to stop a turnback facility being created at Broombridge in the future to allow for trams to start there rather than Finglas and slot in like the starters at Sandyford do on the southside.

LXFlyer · 31-01-2021 5:50pm

Also remember that the 26 existing trams will very shortly all have been extended from 43m to 55m thereby increasing capacity even further.

There’s plenty of scope for capacity increases on the north side.

roadmaster · 01-02-2021 12:18pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

You have to remember that under the current timetable, a maximum of 50% of trams are going to/from Broombridge - the rest turn at Parnell, so plenty of scope for extra services on the northern branch.

There’s also nothing to stop a turnback facility being created at Broombridge in the future to allow for trams to start there rather than Finglas and slot in like the starters at Sandyford do on the southside.

Fair enough , i was just in Charlestown on Friday and was looking at all the apartments going up and then i believe there is developers trying to rezone the industrial units as you go in to the city beside the circle K along with the industrial units across from brombridge to residential in the long term . But from your saying with longer trams etc capacity shouldn't be an issue

Luas Finglas

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