Should Ireland join NATO?

dere34 · 15-08-2020 8:45pm #1

Should Ireland join NATO in the event of a united Ireland? I believe we should for the following reasons:

1. Ireland is not neutral and that is a fact.
2. The DF needs a boost. We need equipment investment, tanks for the Army, frigates for the Navy, fighter jets for the Air Force. Committing to 2% is necessary for this.
3. In the event of a loyalist insurgency we should obliterate the UVF and UDA, no 30 year prolonged conflict.
4. Scotland will join NATO when they become independent. If they join why shouldn't we? We are equally strategic.

krissovo · 15-08-2020 8:50pm

There is no real need, we add zero value to NATO and given our strategic location the US and the UK would intervene against any 3 party.

We add more value to the world being non aligned.

CalamariFritti · 15-08-2020 8:52pm

Also there is that thing where you're supposed to spend at least 2% of your GDP on army stuff. No thanks.

krissovo · 15-08-2020 9:05pm

dere34 wrote: »

Should Ireland join NATO in the event of a united Ireland? I believe we should for the following reasons:

2. The DF needs a boost. We need equipment investment, tanks for the Army, frigates for the Navy, fighter jets for the Air Force. Committing to 2% is necessary for this.

The DF needs a boost but its not fire power we need.

1 squadron of tanks say leopard 2 would cost ~1.2/1.5 billion euro once you add spares and re-training, that would only provide up to 3 lightly armoured mechanised battle groups. Its a total waste of money for no tangible value.

[Deleted User] · 15-08-2020 9:52pm

We should join, if it means the other NATO nations cover us but 2% is more than we can justify.

By all means provide better than we currently have, throw a decent salary increase in while your at it.

Gatling · 15-08-2020 9:56pm

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

We should join, if it means the other NATO nations cover us but 2% is more than we can justify.

By all means provide better than we currently have, throw a decent salary increase in while your at it.

Currently spending is at between 0.2 -03 % spending of GDP were down with Caribbean islands spending wise ,

The same with the vaulted EU army sign up if it gets our defence forces access to better equipment and payments

Eduard Khil · 15-08-2020 10:01pm

No other than offering strategic refuelling ports and a large runway at Shannon there is no benefit to Ireland and in the event of a war breaking out those sites would be open to attack we are on the books neutral with covert benefits open if we can gain from them but to open the country for any and all NATO forces no that would be irresponsible.

Gatling · 15-08-2020 10:16pm

Eduard Khil wrote: »

we are on the books neutral with covert benefits .

Why do people think neutral means anything in this day and age .

Quantum Erasure · 15-08-2020 10:21pm

CalamariFritti wrote: »

Also there is that thing where you're supposed to spend at least 2% of your GDP on army stuff. No thanks.

Loadsa tanks

jaxxx · 15-08-2020 10:21pm

Sure aren't we supposed to be getting jets like??

mikeym · 15-08-2020 10:30pm

Iceland doesnt even have an Army and is a member of NATO.

Manach · 15-08-2020 10:34pm

No. Military action overseas should only be allowed under the remit of the United Nations. NATO has in the past acted unilaterly, ignoring the lack of a Security Council mandate. Hence Ireland should not be tied to an orgnaisation that does not reflect the best of International norms.

Psychlops · 15-08-2020 10:48pm

Eduard Khil wrote: »

No other than offering strategic refuelling ports and a large runway at Shannon there is no benefit to Ireland and in the event of a war breaking out those sites would be open to attack we are on the books neutral with covert benefits open if we can gain from them but to open the country for any and all NATO forces no that would be irresponsible.

Yo do know that any Military does not give a flying fcuk if you are Neutral or not. Besides, Ireland is non-aligned, the word neutral is used by politicians here as they dont know any other word to use, in order to be effectively neutral you actually need to be able to defend yourself from both sides like Switzerland.

[Deleted User] · 15-08-2020 11:04pm

Gatling wrote: »

Currently spending is at between 0.2 -03 % spending of GDP were down with Caribbean islands spending wise ,

The same with the vaulted EU army sign up if it gets our defence forces access to better equipment and payments

To an extent though.

Ultimately, and I mean no disrespect to the df, they don't need fancy tanks. They need transport and modern personal equipment.

The air Corp can't justify anything so Grand as a 30 million interceptor and it's associated costs.

I dunno if the navy needs a bigger fleet or more extensive supports. They do need manpower though

Signore Fancy Pants · 15-08-2020 11:09pm

A full member of NATO?

No thanks, we as a nation simply couldnt afford it tbh.

Gatling · 15-08-2020 11:19pm

Signore Fancy Pants wrote: »

A full member of NATO?

No thanks, we as a nation simply couldnt afford it tbh.

But yet other countries with similar GDP and population sizes can ,and still have a Very good health care system , housing and have multiple squadrons of aircraft ,both fixed and rotary and decent naval forces ,

I remember one year the whole defence forces budget was 800 million which half went on pensions ,
400 million to defend a modern eu country is pathetic is this day and age

TheValeyard · 15-08-2020 11:27pm

No.

We dont need to join the international d1ck swinging clubs.

Let's keep to our peace keeping duties through the UN and keep our neutral/non-aligned status. It's good for business, good for prosperity, good for international relationships, good for travel.

Signore Fancy Pants · 16-08-2020 10:37am

Gatling wrote: »

But yet other countries with similar GDP and population sizes can ,and still have a Very good health care system , housing and have multiple squadrons of aircraft ,both fixed and rotary and decent naval forces ,

I remember one year the whole defence forces budget was 800 million which half went on pensions ,
400 million to defend a modern eu country is pathetic is this day and age

Yeah I completely agree. However, there is absolutely zero will in this current, previous or future governments to become a NATO member. The bottom line is that we are partners of NATO programmes.

"Defence" is a dirty word in the eyes of the Irish populace. Its something that people generally see as a waste of money. They would rather see career dole merchants like Anto and Jacinta have their weekly free money in a generous welfare system.

The defence budget is bad enough as it is and the Defence Forces has been in a steady decline for over a decade. As an Organisation it is barely holding its head above water, becoming a full NATO member and all it entails is so far away from discussion while other issues exist.

biko · 16-08-2020 10:49am

It will probably mean military US presence on Irish soil, so no.

ExMachina1000 · 16-08-2020 11:04am

Ireland is essentially a landing strip and fuelling stop for the Us military. That's as far as our role goes.

Zebra3 · 16-08-2020 12:34pm

Gatling wrote: »

400 million to defend a modern eu country is pathetic is this day and age

Defend from who exactly?

Have I missed something?

Just who is planning to invade us?

Nobody.

Defence? Like taking part in war crimes against innocent Serbian civilians? Don't think we need to get up to our necks in blood just because the Americans and Brits love to.

[Deleted User] · 16-08-2020 4:02pm

Manach wrote: »

No. Military action overseas should only be allowed under the remit of the United Nations. NATO has in the past acted unilaterly, ignoring the lack of a Security Council mandate. Hence Ireland should not be tied to an orgnaisation that does not reflect the best of International norms.

When?

dere34 · 16-08-2020 4:14pm

Zebra3 wrote: »

Defend from who exactly?

Have I missed something?

Just who is planning to invade us?

Nobody.

Defence? Like taking part in war crimes against innocent Serbian civilians? Don't think we need to get up to our necks in blood just because the Americans and Brits love to.

Loyalist insurgency in a united Ireland.

ronivek · 16-08-2020 4:19pm

dere34 wrote: »

Loyalist insurgency in a united Ireland.

Because navy destroyers and fighter jets will help with a ‘loyalist insurgency’? The same way the British were able to leverage their Navy and Air Force against the IRA?

Richard Hillman · 16-08-2020 4:22pm

Smaller Eastern European counties join NATO to protect from Russia or Serbia.

Who do we need protection from? Iceland?

Gatling · 16-08-2020 6:38pm

Zebra3 wrote: »

Have I missed something

Don't think we need to get up to our necks in blood just because the Americans and Brits love to.

Isreal you missed Israel can't have a z-rant without Isreal being mentioned .

Sure in every major war fought across Europe over the last few hundred year's and further afield there was always Irish men and women involved.

Might as well make it official -

Zebra3 · 16-08-2020 7:05pm

Gatling wrote: »

Isreal you missed Israel can't have a z-rant without Isreal being mentioned .

Sure in every major war fought across Europe over the last few hundred year's and further afield there was always Irish men and women involved.

Might as well make it official -

Avoided the question, no surprise there.

Just cos idiots went to fight for empires abroad doesn't mean the Irish state should.

And we're talking about NATO, so no idea why you're going on about Israel.

Gatling · 16-08-2020 8:28pm

Zebra3 wrote: »

Just cos idiots went to fight for empires abroad doesn't mean the Irish state should.

I'd call them brave men and women -

It's the reason why people and can rant and rave on the oul interweb because others have fallen to defend freedoms .

[Deleted User] · 17-08-2020 1:20am

biko wrote: »

It will probably mean military US presence on Irish soil, so no.

Yep, that's never happened before

[Deleted User] · 17-08-2020 1:22am

Gatling wrote: »

But yet other countries with similar GDP and population sizes can ,and still have a Very good health care system , housing and have multiple squadrons of aircraft ,both fixed and rotary and decent naval forces ,

I remember one year the whole defence forces budget was 800 million which half went on pensions ,
400 million to defend a modern eu country is pathetic is this day and age

If other countries put their hand in the fire, would you?

Seriously though, what they do isn't in play. It's what we require from a military standpoint. We don't require 2% being spent on defence. We simple don't.

sandbelter · 17-08-2020 7:48am

Looking back: No need Ireland has been on the geopolitical sidelines since the UK developed the UK-Iceland-Greenland gap strategy (which ten became NATO strategy) since 1940, additionally Ireland favors rules based dispute resolution and multilateralism over unilateralism.

Looking forward: Not as clear cut, We are only at the beginning of China's rise. But two trend are apparent already, First we starting to see a strong strategic emphasis of quarantining of key supply chains within alliance blocks (separated payments systems are an early example) ..so we could start seeing high tech investment being directed away from Ireland, Second China itself is overturning the very rules based order that is the bedrock of Irish neutrality and it may very well be Ireland's Atlantic EEZ that decides it.

For this reason I think what happens to Greece and Cyprus with the current drilling dispute with Turkey inside the EEZ needs to be watched closely. To a large extent what happens to resolve this will give Ireland good idea what's the best course of action.

A lot of the issues are directly relevant to Ireland as small country with potentially transformative mineral resources within it's EEZ.

Should Ireland join NATO?

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