FF/FG/Green Next Government

Brendan Bendar · 07-08-2020 04:37PM

Scoondal wrote: »

In my local area, I want to start a gathering of "common sense" people.
County Cork has a population of 253,000 and 7 cases in 7 days. The new Irish government has destroyed the tourist income. Common sense no longer exists here.
Next year, tourists will have less places to stay and limited eating and no music pubs.

You got the title wrong,dude, you need to re-brand it to ‘vested interest’ people.

Much more accurate descriptor

Wanderer78 · 07-08-2020 04:40PM

markodaly wrote:

Life expentancy is going up. Less wars then ever before More people accessing education then ever before. Women are freer than ever before. Poverty is decressing.

Life expectancy is actually falling in parts of the states, tensions are actually rising geopolitically, educational related debts are actually on the rise, many women not only have to maintain their traditional roles of caretaking and house work etc, but also have to work, some full-time, and some in low paid jobs with increasing precariousness. A new type of poverty is occurring in the form of 'dept peonage'......

Brendan Bendar · 07-08-2020 04:41PM

Spinning rapidly........

Wanderer78 · 07-08-2020 04:45PM

Brendan Bendar wrote:

Spinning rapidly........

That will only make you sick, leave it to the kids, it's not worth it

Brendan Bendar · 07-08-2020 04:50PM

Yep... referring to the plight of the thread .......

Wanderer78 · 07-08-2020 04:56PM

Brendan Bendar wrote:

Yep... referring to the plight of the thread .......

Thread is fine, maybe do what I do when I get fed up with a thread, unsubcribe

James Brown · 07-08-2020 04:58PM

markodaly wrote: »

Ah, this old chestnut.

Yea, those things gave us the most peaceful, safest, prorperous, healthiest and educated population in history....

I am sure someone will come along now and say something about house prices, as if that negates the huge work done by man in many of the key human indicators over the last 100 years...

High house prices does not negate that huge success.

'Here's my view of why everything is great and theres no issues. I'm sure people will come along with facts to dispute that' :rolleyes:

efanton · 07-08-2020 06:26PM

Akesh wrote: »

Or perhaps spending over 20% of the entire country's income on social welfare is where the real problem lies.

So you dont want a pension when you retire?

You dont want sick pay when you are sick?

You dont want a statutory redundancy payment if the company you work for collapses and are unable to pay it?

You dont want home help, disability aids, or any other form of state assistance if you unfortunately get crippled in a car accident, have a stroke or heart attack or suffer some other life changing and traumatic experience?

Aren't you the great martyr, willing to sacrifice the very things you might yet need yourself.

The one thing I can be fairly certain about is the very people that bemoan social welfare in all its forms are the very ones who complain loudest when its them that require it.

Be careful what you wish for, none of us has a crystal ball. I personally know a man that was once a multi millionaire, had three separate businesses and is now a paraplegic confined to a wheelchair after a light aircraft crash. The businesses and money are long gone, and now still only in his early fifties he is grateful for the assistance he gets.

You are probably going to argue that this is the rare case, but the truth is that it is those that decide not to work ever are the rare cases. The vast majority of those that get any form of social welfare deserve those supports, and we should ensure they continue to get them.

The_Conductor · 07-08-2020 07:00PM

efanton - I don't think anyone can seriously argue with the points you're making- however, the manner in which workers in Ireland are taxed in an undue manner- with a marginal deduction rate of 52% on all pay over 34.5k- is very much a concern. Even for those in gainful employment- there is limited appeal in working longer hours or taking on more responsibility- when you're going to loose an abnormal chunk of it- at relatively low pay rates.

In addition- combined social welfare disbursements (under one or more headings- but including accommodation and a free medical card) can make it difficult to financially incentivise someone to join the workforce- sure you'd be mad to, if it cost you more in entitlements than you brought in (to say nothing of childcare costs).

The social welfare system- does need to be reformed- as does the tax system, childcare, and the sheer cost of living in Ireland. These are all political hot potatoes that our politicians have perennially booted into the long grass. We're now at yet another impasse - where we're running out of long grass- and look likely to borrow between 24 and 30 billion this year- with Brexit ready to boot us in the gonads come next January.

Whether we like it or not- we have been living far beyond our means- and money doesn't grow on trees.

We have some exceptionally hard choices we're going to have to make in the not so distant future.

KyussB · 07-08-2020 07:27PM

What are you on about? High unemployment means we are living well below our means - because we have gigantic numbers of people ready to do useful work, and the necessary resources available (e.g. to build huge number of houses) - and we are failing to live up to our means by not doing that...

Money isn't a scarce resource that you dig up out of the ground - we're not in the gold standard anymore, private banks and central banks create gigantic amounts of money out of nowhere all the time - ready to fund anything which can be financially sustained.

Presently bonds are at their easiest-to-sustain terms ever - and spending on anything which maximizes GDP (i.e. which maintains Full Employment), automatically maximises the financial sustainability of such funding, as it grows the GDP portion of Public Debt vs GDP faster, and increases revenue from our tax base faster.

Scoondal · 07-08-2020 07:42PM

My mother is in a nursing home in Co. Kildare I have had enough of being treated like a diseased person.
I want to take her out of this situation and bring her to my house.
I cannot believe how cruel Ireland has become.

Wanderer78 · 07-08-2020 07:47PM

Scoondal wrote: »

My mother is in a nursing home in Co. Kildare I have had enough of being treated like a diseased person.
I want to take her out of this situation and bring her to my house.
I cannot believe how cruel Ireland has become.

how?

The_Conductor · 07-08-2020 07:50PM

KyussB wrote: »

What are you on about? High unemployment means we are living well below our means - because we have gigantic numbers of people ready to do useful work, and the necessary resources available (e.g. to build huge number of houses) - and we are failing to live up to our means by not doing that...

Money isn't a scarce resource that you dig up out of the ground - we're not in the gold standard anymore, private banks and central banks create gigantic amounts of money out of nowhere all the time - ready to fund anything which can be financially sustained.

Presently bonds are at their easiest-to-sustain terms ever - and spending on anything which maximizes GDP (i.e. which maintains Full Employment), automatically maximises the financial sustainability of such funding, as it grows the GDP portion of Public Debt vs GDP faster, and increases revenue from our tax base faster.

Sigh- so you do believe that money grows on trees? I wish I believed in fairy tales too- however, this particular fairy tale does not have a pleasant ending.

All I can do is say- I wish you the very best of good luck- seeing as your and my opinions are so diametrically opposed- there really is no point in discussing/debating this with you.

RandomViewer · 07-08-2020 07:55PM

The_Conductor wrote: »

efanton - I don't think anyone can seriously argue with the points you're making- however, the manner in which workers in Ireland are taxed in an undue manner- with a marginal deduction rate of 52% on all pay over 34.5k- is very much a concern. Even for those in gainful employment- there is limited appeal in working longer hours or taking on more responsibility- when you're going to loose an abnormal chunk of it- at relatively low pay rates.

In addition- combined social welfare disbursements (under one or more headings- but including accommodation and a free medical card) can make it difficult to financially incentivise someone to join the workforce- sure you'd be mad to, if it cost you more in entitlements than you brought in (to say nothing of childcare costs).

The social welfare system- does need to be reformed- as does the tax system, childcare, and the sheer cost of living in Ireland. These are all political hot potatoes that our politicians have perennially booted into the long grass. We're now at yet another impasse - where we're running out of long grass- and look likely to borrow between 24 and 30 billion this year- with Brexit ready to boot us in the gonads come next January.

Whether we like it or not- we have been living far beyond our means- and money doesn't grow on trees.

We have some exceptionally hard choices we're going to have to make in the not so distant future.

international demand has dried up ,lots of people are going to lose their jobs, the thing is this time the job losses will be hitting the FG voters ,the tech jobs the money handlers, they need the shop workers and the nurses this time, question is will they abandon their brethren or bail them out

RandomViewer · 07-08-2020 08:01PM

KyussB wrote: »

What are you on about? High unemployment means we are living well below our means - because we have gigantic numbers of people ready to do useful work, and the necessary resources available (e.g. to build huge number of houses) - and we are failing to live up to our means by not doing that...

Money isn't a scarce resource that you dig up out of the ground - we're not in the gold standard anymore, private banks and central banks create gigantic amounts of money out of nowhere all the time - ready to fund anything which can be financially sustained.

Presently bonds are at their easiest-to-sustain terms ever - and spending on anything which maximizes GDP (i.e. which maintains Full Employment), automatically maximises the financial sustainability of such funding, as it grows the GDP portion of Public Debt vs GDP faster, and increases revenue from our tax base faster.

I get where you are coming from but I can't see anyone in the current political system going for it, the idea of state employment as a guarantee if you can't find alternative is a noble idea but the way this country works there has to be a backhander for someone, so costs would make your proposal too costly.

Wanderer78 · 07-08-2020 08:04PM

The_Conductor wrote: »

Sigh- so you do believe that money grows on trees? I wish I believed in fairy tales too- however, this particular fairy tale does not have a pleasant ending.

All I can do is say- I wish you the very best of good luck- seeing as your and my opinions are so diametrically opposed- there really is no point in discussing/debating this with you.

yup, effectively money does indeed grow on trees, in financial institutions in both the public and private sectors, the most common being private sector created money, otherwise known as credit, noting all money created, whether its done via the public or private sectors, becomes debt.

RandomViewer · 07-08-2020 08:16PM

Wanderer78 wrote: »

yup, effectively money does indeed grow on trees, in financial institutions in both the public and private sectors, the most common being private sector created money, otherwise known as credit, noting all money created, whether its done via the public or private sectors, becomes debt.

FG still uses nineteenth century ideas around most subjects, money, sex ,employment rights

Wanderer78 · 07-08-2020 08:18PM

RandomViewer wrote: »

FG still uses nineteenth century ideas around most subjects, money, sex ,employment rights

to be fair, they re starting to change from their conservative traditions, including money matters, current covid payments could be considered a method of 'helicopter money'

The_Conductor · 07-08-2020 08:21PM

RandomViewer wrote: »

international demand has dried up ,lots of people are going to lose their jobs, the thing is this time the job losses will be hitting the FG voters ,the tech jobs the money handlers, they need the shop workers and the nurses this time, question is will they abandon their brethren or bail them out

Statistically- the people who have lost their jobs (thus far) are more likely to be ye aforementioned shop workers- than anyone else (reflecting the move away from historically normal shopping patterns).

Certainly there will be some job losses in other sectors (look at the 1,400 jobs that BOI are cutting in Ireland and the UK, the job losses in the airline industry, the 238k people involved in the tourism sector in Ireland etc etc)

I am not sure what you mean by 'abandoning their brethern or bail them out'- are you suggesting hiking taxes further on those who haven't lost their jobs to make disbursements to those who have had the misfortune to loose theirs? Keep in mind- the first money that was spent to pay for the covid payments to workers who lost their jobs because of the covid pandemic- was the social welfare fund for pensions- that is- the money that every worker has been paying in PRSI and USC- towards their retirement- has gone- gone completely- its been spent- its not going to be there for them when they retire.

Our dependency ratio in Ireland- was roughly 56% in 2019 - broadly similar to Italy's- however, even before Covid hit- it was on an upward trajectory.

Magic money trees do not exist (regardless of what some posters on this thread may imagine). Someone has to pay for largess when money is doled out to people- and those 'someones' are having to support an increasingly large number of dependents (younger and more elderly people). We can't borrow money ad nauseum- despite what some people imagine. This is not an option.

Brendan Bendar · 07-08-2020 08:21PM

RandomViewer wrote: »

FG still uses nineteenth century ideas around most subjects, money, sex ,employment rights

Give us a synopsis of the 21st century ideas you have in mind.

And a full explanation of the consequential occurrence path.

Per favor amigo

Wanderer78 · 07-08-2020 08:23PM

Wanderer78 wrote: »

yup, effectively money does indeed grow on trees, in financial institutions in both the public and private sectors, the most common being private sector created money, otherwise known as credit, noting all money created, whether its done via the public or private sectors, becomes debt.

The_Conductor wrote: »

Magic money trees do not exist (regardless of what some posters on this thread may imagine). Someone has to pay for largess when money is doled out to people- and those 'someones' are having to support an increasingly large number of dependents (younger and more elderly people). We can't borrow money ad nauseum- despite what some people imagine. This is not an option.

...............

Wanderer78 · 07-08-2020 08:24PM

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

Give us a synopsis of the 21st century ideas you have in mind.

And a full explanation of the consequential occurrence path.

Per favor amigo

in relation to money creation, long term bonds and the creation of public banking systems

RandomViewer · 07-08-2020 08:28PM

The_Conductor wrote: »

Statistically- the people who have lost their jobs (thus far) are more likely to be ye aforementioned shop workers- than anyone else (reflecting the move away from historically normal shopping patterns).

Certainly there will be some job losses in other sectors (look at the 1,400 jobs that BOI are cutting in Ireland and the UK, the job losses in the airline industry, the 238k people involved in the tourism sector in Ireland etc etc)

I am not sure what you mean by 'abandoning their brethern or bail them out'- are you suggesting hiking taxes further on those who haven't lost their jobs to make disbursements to those who have had the misfortune to loose theirs? Keep in mind- the first money that was spent to pay for the covid payments to workers who lost their jobs because of the covid pandemic- was the social welfare fund for pensions- that is- the money that every worker has been paying in PRSI and USC- towards their retirement- has gone- gone completely- its been spent- its not going to be there for them when they retire.

Our dependency ratio in Ireland- was roughly 56% in 2019 - broadly similar to Italy's- however, even before Covid hit- it was on an upward trajectory.

Magic money trees do not exist (regardless of what some posters on this thread may imagine). Someone has to pay for largess when money is doled out to people- and those 'someones' are having to support an increasingly large number of dependents (younger and more elderly people). We can't borrow money ad nauseum- despite what some people imagine. This is not an option.

Domestic economy isn't in the worst place, lots of debt paid down but the sectors depending on international trade are in trouble, in 2009 the state abandoned the construction industry to save the bank's, this time it's the middle income earners most likely to lose out, FFG voter base will be decimated so I'm thinking some form of UBI/TWSS to be rolled out.

Wanderer78 · 07-08-2020 08:33PM

RandomViewer wrote:

Domestic economy isn't in the worst place, lots of debt paid down but the sectors depending on international trade are in trouble, in 2009 the state abandoned the construction industry to save the bank's, this time it's the middle income earners most likely to lose out, FFG voter base will be decimated so I'm thinking some form of UBI/TWSS to be rolled out.

I think if they dont reverse covid payment cuts soon, the private sector will tank even quicker, it needs money, and fast

The_Conductor · 07-08-2020 08:33PM

Wanderer78 wrote: »

to be fair, they re starting to change from their conservative traditions, including money matters, current covid payments could be considered a method of 'helicopter money'

Not exactly- they emptied the social welfare funds for pensions- before they borrowed 'helicopter' money. Today's workers pensions have been spent- to provide Covid payments to people.

RandomViewer · 07-08-2020 08:37PM

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

Give us a synopsis of the 21st century ideas you have in mind.

And a full explanation of the consequential occurrence path.

Per favor amigo

Cerveza per favor

Whole world is effected so money borrowing won't be an issue it's how it's used that matters .
Currents systems of governance are powerless against years of corruption, anything the state does cost multiples of what it should because of trough feeders who are usually paid up members of FG.
Every higher level civil servants is indoctrinated so needs to go,
We actually need to make 30-40 thousand publicservants and union representatives unemployed to create employment for hundreds of thousands
System is broken ,needs replaced completely

The_Conductor · 07-08-2020 08:37PM

RandomViewer wrote: »

Domestic economy isn't in the worst place, lots of debt paid down but the sectors depending on international trade are in trouble, in 2009 the state abandoned the construction industry to save the bank's, this time it's the middle income earners most likely to lose out, FFG voter base will be decimated so I'm thinking some form of UBI/TWSS to be rolled out.

FFG voters don't have any nature home to migrate to- if/when they're pissed off (other than to do the same thing as they did last time round- and simply not vote at all). FFG voters were still hurting from the last austerity round- and had been promised tax reforms if they voted FG this time round- which obviously isn't going to happen. Even ignoring the burden they're going to be asked to bear- its ontop of the burden they were scarcely managing before all this crap hit the fan.

Wanderer78 · 07-08-2020 08:40PM

The_Conductor wrote:

Not exactly- they emptied the social welfare funds for pensions- before they borrowed 'helicopter' money. Today's workers pensions have been spent- to provide Covid payments to people.

There's nothing stopping them from creating long term bonds and public banking systems, to reduce the need to crawling down the back of the coach for such things, with record low rates, they'd be nuts not to. the private sector doesn't have the capacity right now to take on the debts needed to grow our way outta this one, if we don't enact these public sector mechanisms, we ll shrink further for longer

RandomViewer · 07-08-2020 08:46PM

Wanderer78 wrote: »

I think if they dont reverse covid payment cuts soon, the private sector will tank even quicker, it needs money, and fast

Except for a few office staff everyone where I work is on TWSS, some weeks we have work, some we don't, it's getting quieter and my guess is if TWSS is cut its redundancies for some or full closure, would think lots of others in similar position

Wanderer78 · 07-08-2020 08:49PM

RandomViewer wrote:

Except for a few office staff everyone where I work is on TWSS, some weeks we have work, some we don't, it's getting quieter and my guess is if TWSS is cut its redundancies for some or full closure, would think lots of others in similar position

Yup, this is my ultimate fear, and disturbingly, our government and it's advisers don't seem to realise by cutting that money, they re speeding up this process, just create the fcuking money, and save jobs and businesses

FF/FG/Green Next Government

Comments