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Cats

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    #62
    dodderangler
    Registered Users Posts: 9,204 ✭✭✭dodderangler


    kildare lad wrote: »
    So putting a cat to sleep is cruel but neutering a cat and releasing him back into the wild killing loads of wildlife is ok . I scratch my head

    I forgot we are on a section that belongs to nature lovers and animals lovers that love them from the TV or their home. They dont venture outdoors at all. We know exactly what they do out there. Because we actually go outside man. Im done. This page has been taken over by animal and pet issue crowd.
    One claiming a cat wouldn't take out a whole coop!! What a clown.


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    #63
    zerosugarbuzz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,224 ✭✭✭zerosugarbuzz


    dodderangler wrote: »
    Mate seriously cop onto yourself. Ive seen it. Hunting a long long time.
    You clearly have no clue on the difference between a feral and a housecat when it comes to being around poultry etc. Get out of here trying to be smart you fool. Stay at home and play with your cats.

    So "I've seen it, hunting a long time". So you actually hunt and kill innocent animals for sport yourself yet you object to a cat killing out of hunger or simply natural instincts.... The mind boggles, justify that.


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    #64
    dodderangler
    Registered Users Posts: 9,204 ✭✭✭dodderangler


    zerosugarbuzz wrote: »
    So "I've seen it, hunting a long time". So you actually hunt and kill innocent animals for sport yourself yet you object to a cat killing out of hunger or simply natural instincts.... The mind boggles, justify that.

    For sport? Guess you've never tasted rabbit, duck, pheasant, snipe, deer, hare, pigeon, woodcock
    You prefer someone else to kill it for you so you buy it in the shop huh!!!? Mind boggles that people so narrow-minded still exist!!!


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    #65
    Grolschevik
    Registered Users Posts: 3,472 ✭✭✭Grolschevik


    kildare lad wrote: »
    I know this is from Australia but still s

    And thus is completely irrelevant to Ireland, Britain, and most of Europe. Places like Australia are different ecological cases.


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    #66
    Eddie B
    Registered Users Posts: 1,974 ✭✭✭Eddie B


    zerosugarbuzz wrote: »
    What native wild life are you specifically referring to? Mink, ferrets, rats foxes? Or is it just birds. If its birds I think you may have missed the absolute viciousness between the various species be it crows, magpies or even the simple robin (simple til angered). Are you actually familar with nature at all, maybe just on TV?

    I am very familiar with nature. Actually volunteered for various projects including a ground nesting bird project, and a Pine Marten rehabilitation project. How bout yourself? No, watching spring watch doesn't count.

    So let's get this right. You see all animals living in the wild in Ireland as equal. Like the feral cat is as of equal importance as say, the Red Squirrel? Just let them all live happily ever after. Afternoon tea and biscuits, yadda yadda yadda. Better still, bring in a couple thousand wolves, snakes, and leopards. Sure they'll all live happily ever after.


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    #67
    Eddie B
    Registered Users Posts: 1,974 ✭✭✭Eddie B


    Grolschevik wrote: »
    And thus is completely irrelevant to Ireland, Britain, and most of Europe. Places like Australia are different ecological cases.

    Why is it irrelevant? Have cats a positive or negative affect on wildlife?


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    #68
    Grolschevik
    Registered Users Posts: 3,472 ✭✭✭Grolschevik


    Eddie B wrote: »
    Why is it irrelevant? Have cats a positive or negative affect on wildlife?

    Hardly any effect in terms of overall population numbers and balance in Britain and Ireland. As I've posted several times in this thread, the situation is completely different in Australia.


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    #69
    Eddie B
    Registered Users Posts: 1,974 ✭✭✭Eddie B


    Grolschevik wrote: »
    Hardly any effect in terms of overall population numbers and balance in Britain and Ireland. As I've posted several times in this thread, the situation is completely different in Australia.

    Any links to studies done here in Ireland, or has their even been studies done on the impact of cat predation here?

    As reguards Australia. Even though it is well known that cats have a drastic effect on indigenous wildlife, there is still a huge outcry from cat lovers.


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    #70
    BloodBath
    Registered Users Posts: 10,299 ✭✭✭✭BloodBath


    dodderangler wrote: »
    Mate seriously cop onto yourself. Ive seen it. Hunting a long long time.
    You clearly have no clue on the difference between a feral and a housecat when it comes to being around poultry etc. Get out of here trying to be smart you fool. Stay at home and play with your cats.

    Great reply. Where is your evidence for a cat taking out a whole coop of chickens or any of the the other nonsense you are spouting?

    I can see 1 killing 1 chicken, especially younger ones. Going in and killing a whole coop though? No chance. I've heard of foxes doing that.

    Stop pretending you give a crap about local wildlife as well. Like most farmers you only care about the bottom line and will be the first to shoot the native wildlife, protected or not, if it starts effecting your profits.


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    #71
    Grolschevik
    Registered Users Posts: 3,472 ✭✭✭Grolschevik


    Eddie B wrote: »
    Any links to studies done here in Ireland, or has their even been studies done on the impact of cat predation here?
    .

    Don't know about the Republic specifically, but the RSPB thing I linked to in my first post related to the entire UK, which includes the North. Not too much to expect that its conclusions would be applicable in the rest of Ireland as well, especially given the social and cultural similarities in demographics and pet ownership between the two islands and jurisdictions.


    Edit: some stuff thrown up by a quick google:

    Report on research by US scientists: “Widely-held belief that outdoor cats threaten biodiversity and public health challenged by new research.”

    “The article exposes the faulty reasoning that equates this challenge with science denialism, shows the evidence that cats pose a threat is uncertain, calls attention to the ethical and policy questions that must still be fully explored, and supports a more nuanced, dialogic, and collaborative approach to how people, cats, and biodiversity are understood.”

    https://theecologist.org/2019/jun/19/cat-blaming-scientifically-and-morally-wrong?fbclid=IwAR3saRvQt8jgycXYCNDBKbhhI42xD6XvaVdRdfCH6_nyJ1lE8XlI63alVbY

    And an Australian focus:

    "Virtually every study of outdoor cats assumes that because cats in some habitats threaten biodiversity, they are a threat across all habitats everywhere. This is a projection from a small set of localized case studies to the world at large. In other words, a guesstimate.

    This is why the ranges of birds and mammals preyed upon that are cited above are so wide. Such guesstimates are neither descriptive nor predictive of the world. Some advocates have criticized such studies as junk science. For a particularly sustained critique see Vox Felina, which aims to “improve the lives of feral cats” through more thorough discussion. I think calling the academic literature junk science overstates the case a tad. Such studies can improve our understanding about what happens in similar situations, even if they cannot be generalized to all cats everywhere.

    These studies, though, make little effort to understand the complexities of outdoor cats interacting with wildlife. When they do, the picture they reveal is quite different from what the guesstimates assume."

    https://theconversation.com/australias-war-on-feral-cats-shaky-science-missing-ethics-47444?fbclid=IwAR1ARW5vR8q7Fo9VxjXmUBRPfetSfv7W1sglj8-4Orznwx5HNAkVuDWib5o


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    #72
    Eddie B
    Registered Users Posts: 1,974 ✭✭✭Eddie B


    Grolschevik wrote: »
    Don't know about the Republic specifically, but the RSPB thing I linked to in my first post related to the entire UK, which includes the North. Not too much to expect that its conclusions would be applicable in the rest of Ireland as well, especially given the social and cultural similarities in demographics and pet ownership between the two islands and jurisdictions.

    Sorry I must have missed it. I'll have a look, thanks


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    #73
    em_cat
    Registered Users Posts: 1,292 ✭✭✭em_cat


    kildare lad wrote: »
    So putting a cat to sleep is cruel but neutering a cat and releasing him back into the wild killing loads of wildlife is ok . I scratch my head

    Putting a domestic species to sleep without it being medically warranted is by its very nature cruel. Cats like any other species are driven to procreate, to continue on, not die out ...etc.


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    #74
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,392 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    em_cat wrote: »
    Putting a domestic species to sleep without it being medically warranted is by its very nature cruel. Cats like any other species are driven to procreate, to continue on, not die out ...etc.

    Username checks out.


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    #75
    PsychoPete
    Registered Users Posts: 8,574 ✭✭✭PsychoPete


    My cat kills one or two birds a week, impossible to get a collar and bell on her without getting your arm clawed


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    #76
    kildare lad
    Registered Users Posts: 2,010 ✭✭✭kildare lad


    em_cat wrote: »
    Putting a domestic species to sleep without it being medically warranted is by its very nature cruel. Cats like any other species are driven to procreate, to continue on, not die out ...etc.

    Feral cats are domesticated though , they're an invasive wild animal and should be treated as such


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    #77
    kildare lad
    Registered Users Posts: 2,010 ✭✭✭kildare lad


    Eddie B wrote: »
    Any links to studies done here in Ireland, or has their even been studies done on the impact of cat predation here?

    As reguards Australia. Even though it is well known that cats have a drastic effect on indigenous wildlife, there is still a huge outcry from cat lovers.

    Ye it's ridiculous , they'd rather a species went extinct than something bad happens feral cats. It's that bad over there , they've to put the endangered small mammals in fenced ringed enclosures in a few wildlife park to stop them going extinct. And yet the cats lovers still give out and protest when they try and do culls to protect wildlife. Sad people


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    #78
    dodderangler
    Registered Users Posts: 9,204 ✭✭✭dodderangler


    BloodBath wrote: »
    Great reply. Where is your evidence for a cat taking out a whole coop of chickens or any of the the other nonsense you are spouting?

    I can see 1 killing 1 chicken, especially younger ones. Going in and killing a whole coop though? No chance. I've heard of foxes doing that.

    Stop pretending you give a crap about local wildlife as well. Like most farmers you only care about the bottom line and will be the first to shoot the native wildlife, protected or not, if it starts effecting your profits.

    Wrong. Foxes despite the fact they do come to chucken coops they hardly take more than they need. A feral cat will and keep in mind yet again we ARE talking about FERAL CATS!! Feral cats are ten times worse than a house cat when it comes to killing. Tell you what. Why don't you go out and get close to a feral cat. Let me know how you get on then seeing as they're so sweet natured as you seem to believe!!! You clearly have no contact with the outside world mate.


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    #79
    dodderangler
    Registered Users Posts: 9,204 ✭✭✭dodderangler


    BloodBath wrote: »
    Great reply. Where is your evidence for a cat taking out a whole coop of chickens or any of the the other nonsense you are spouting?

    I can see 1 killing 1 chicken, especially younger ones. Going in and killing a whole coop though? No chance. I've heard of foxes doing that.

    Stop pretending you give a crap about local wildlife as well. Like most farmers you only care about the bottom line and will be the first to shoot the native wildlife, protected or not, if it starts effecting your profits.

    And who in the name of God said I was a farmer?? Take the head out mate. Stop smoking those silly sticks.
    I hunt. I am out there seeing numbers of animals grow because we have reduced the predator side of it. Grouse numbers are back up. Corncrake numbers steadily coming back. Rabbit numbers coming back and hares. Red squirrel too and guess who helped them come back ? It wasn't you lot sitting on your couch acting like you care and giving your 2 cents worth of knowledge acring like you know what happens out there! No sir it was not!!
    Suppose you'll tell me foxes don't do any harm out there either?


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    #80
    dodderangler
    Registered Users Posts: 9,204 ✭✭✭dodderangler


    PsychoPete wrote: »
    My cat kills one or two birds a week, impossible to get a collar and bell on her without getting your arm clawed

    so you have a pet cat that you cannot handle?? And i doubt she kills only one or two. Those are what you know of.
    Anyone else see the ridiculousness of having a pet that you cannot hold without being destroyed?


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    #81
    OpenYourEyes
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 3,068 Mod ✭✭✭✭OpenYourEyes


    Grolschevik wrote: »
    How long does an animal have to exist in an ecosystem before it stops being "artificially introduced" and "non-native"? I've head the same claims about magpies, for example. Usually from hunters/trappers.

    It's not like cats only got here in the '40s!

    It never stops being artificially introduced or non-native! There is the case for species such as rabbits and fallow deer where they're here long-enough, and aren't deemed to be having a significant negative impact, that they're considered "naturalised" i.e. not of much concern. But that will never be the case for cats, mink etc.

    You've heard them about Magpies but the difference is that was incorrect - Magpies got here under their own steam, so it's natural colonisation in the same way as the Little Egret and Collared Dove. That's one of those myths that has persisted, likely by people who want to further demonise them.


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    #82
    OpenYourEyes
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 3,068 Mod ✭✭✭✭OpenYourEyes


    Mod Note: This thread will be locked soon if the personal insults don't stop!

    Also, note that hunting is a legitimate activity recognised by the EU Birds Directive and almost all wildlife conservation organisations. With that in mind, I don't want any of the types of insults in the posts below or I'll start issuing bans. If you don't like hunting, that's fine and you're entitled to your opinion but keep it civil. No more warnings - just bans.

    BloodBath wrote: »
    Great reply. Where is your evidence for a cat taking out a whole coop of chickens or any of the the other nonsense you are spouting?

    I can see 1 killing 1 chicken, especially younger ones. Going in and killing a whole coop though? No chance. I've heard of foxes doing that.

    Stop pretending you give a crap about local wildlife as well. Like most farmers you only care about the bottom line and will be the first to shoot the native wildlife, protected or not, if it starts effecting your profits.
    zerosugarbuzz wrote: »
    So "I've seen it, hunting a long time". So you actually hunt and kill innocent animals for sport yourself yet you object to a cat killing out of hunger or simply natural instincts.... The mind boggles, justify that.


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    #83
    Storm 10
    Registered Users Posts: 5,875 ✭✭✭Storm 10


    dodderangler wrote: »
    Red squirrel too and guess who helped them come back

    Red Squirrels are coming back because Pine Martins have been introduced into the wild and they are killing the Grey Squirrel its a known fact that Pine Martins will take Chickens wipe out birds and their nest etc, as a matter of fact I never knew that the Woodpecker will take young birds as well its not all Cats which I presume you hate going by your posts. There is a huge number of species out there who are doing more than enough damage to our Bird population, you cant blame the Cat for everything which you appear to do.

    You say you are hunting a long time I would love to know the damage you are doing to our wildlife, put the gun away.


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    #84
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,392 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    PsychoPete wrote: »
    My cat kills one or two birds a week, impossible to get a collar and bell on her without getting your arm clawed

    The problem isn't so much getting the collar on her as keeping it on her. I don't think the proposal to put collars/bells on feral cats is workable. All collars are designed to tear off if put under significant pressure to avoid choking. Our last cat wouldn't keep a collar on her for more than a day. If she brought back most of her kills as presents, her kill rate was about once every three months.


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    #85
    OpenYourEyes
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 3,068 Mod ✭✭✭✭OpenYourEyes


    Storm 10 wrote: »
    Red Squirrels are coming back because Pine Martins have been introduced into the wild and they are killing the Grey Squirrel its a known fact that Pine Martins will take Chickens wipe out birds and their nest etc, as a matter of fact I never knew that the Woodpecker will take young birds as well its not all Cats which I presume you hate going by your posts. There is a huge number of species out there who are doing more than enough damage to our Bird population, you cant blame the Cat for everything which you appear to do.

    You say you are hunting a long time I would love to know the damage you are doing to our wildlife, put the gun away.


    Mod Note: Banned for doing the exact thing I warned not to do in the post immediately above!


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    #86
    Eddie B
    Registered Users Posts: 1,974 ✭✭✭Eddie B


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    The problem isn't so much getting the collar on her as keeping it on her. I don't think the proposal to put collars/bells on feral cats is workable. All collars are designed to tear off if put under significant pressure to avoid choking. Our last cat wouldn't keep a collar on her for more than a day. If she brought back most of her kills as presents, her kill rate was about once every three months.

    I honestly don't think collars and bells make any difference anyway.


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    #87
    OpenYourEyes
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 3,068 Mod ✭✭✭✭OpenYourEyes


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    The problem isn't so much getting the collar on her as keeping it on her. I don't think the proposal to put collars/bells on feral cats is workable. All collars are designed to tear off if put under significant pressure to avoid choking. Our last cat wouldn't keep a collar on her for more than a day. If she brought back most of her kills as presents, her kill rate was about once every three months.

    I've heard plenty of anecdotal evidence of cats learning to hunt with the bell/collar - altering their movements to ensure it doesn't give them away. I've even heard one person say their cat had learned to cope with two bells! They're better than nothing, but certainly not the perfect solution to the whole problem.

    This recent paper on cat predation says only 18% of kills were brought home!
    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2351989420307393


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    #88
    dodderangler
    Registered Users Posts: 9,204 ✭✭✭dodderangler


    Storm 10 wrote: »
    Red Squirrels are coming back because Pine Martins have been introduced into the wild and they are killing the Grey Squirrel its a known fact that Pine Martins will take Chickens wipe out birds and their nest etc, as a matter of fact I never knew that the Woodpecker will take young birds as well its not all Cats which I presume you hate going by your posts. There is a huge number of species out there who are doing more than enough damage to our Bird population, you cant blame the Cat for everything which you appear to do.

    You say you are hunting a long time I would love to know the damage you are doing to our wildlife, put the gun away.

    Partially correct. So the numbers of greys being trapped and shot by hunters means nothing because a pine marten is back??


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    #89
    Eddie B
    Registered Users Posts: 1,974 ✭✭✭Eddie B


    OpenYourEyes wrote: »
    I've heard plenty of anecdotal evidence of cats learning to hunt with the bell/collar - altering their movements to ensure it doesn't give them away. I've even heard one person say their cat had learned to cope with two bells! They're better than nothing, but certainly not the perfect solution to the whole problem.

    This recent paper on cat predation says only 18% of kills were brought home!
    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2351989420307393

    The way a cat hunts naturally, means that there is no sudden movement until the last seconds of the hunt. Therefore, the bell is silent until it is too late for the most part. A cat rally doesnt have to adapt to wearing a bell. Better than nothing I suppose.


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    #90
    PsychoPete
    Registered Users Posts: 8,574 ✭✭✭PsychoPete


    dodderangler wrote: »
    so you have a pet cat that you cannot handle?? And i doubt she kills only one or two. Those are what you know of.
    Anyone else see the ridiculousness of having a pet that you cannot hold without being destroyed?

    I just leave her do her thing, she keeps the rats out of the yard which is the main thing


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    #91
    Grolschevik
    Registered Users Posts: 3,472 ✭✭✭Grolschevik


    OpenYourEyes wrote: »
    It never stops being artificially introduced or non-native! There is the case for species such as rabbits and fallow deer where they're here long-enough, and aren't deemed to be having a significant negative impact, that they're considered "naturalised" i.e. not of much concern. But that will never be the case for cats, mink etc..

    I'm interested in the basis for this. Cats have been on this island for thousands of years; mink only about 70. I don't understand the basis for comparison.

    Or is it the case that cats are supposed to be domesticated, and that it's when they go feral that they count as invasive and non-natural in whatever habitat they happen to be operating in?


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