Cats

Igotadose

dodderangler wrote: »

I've seen some big fat ferals over the years. Of course one looked like the elusive black panther of ireland and I could see how that story started but it was a very large tom feral.
Alot of them are healthy. Im talking the countryside feral cat. Theyre normally healthy looking

I could readily refute this with pictures of the local mangy, scrawny feral cats here in the countryside as well. They look terrible to me, obvious mange on some, and despite bunches of kittens in the spring, you hardly see any make it to the winter. I think feral cats have short, nasty and brutish lives as a result unless food is put out for them. Those that are fed by well-intentioned neighbors look better, true, but only those. They're not getting fat from eating wild birds and mice and so on.

BloodBath

dodderangler wrote: »

You should take your own advice. Do you go out and view what they do?? I've seen it personally. Ive seen the damage done. I've talked ti the farmers and they've told me they've even got them on the cameras.

I don't think you have much of a clue about cats at all tbh. Claiming a single cat can kill thousands of birds a year and that they catch rabbits and will drop a dead rabbit to chase and kill another 1. That a cat will kill a whole chicken coop? Most cats wouldn't go anywhere near a chicken coop. All nonsense.

Where are you getting this ****e out of? Farmers giving out about them as well. What are ye on about? Is it killing your livestock? No it's not.

Talking about damage to native species? Farming has done more damage to native species than anything else. Get your own house in order.

Eddie B

Igotadose wrote: »

I could readily refute this with pictures of the local mangy, scrawny feral cats here in the countryside as well. They look terrible to me, obvious mange on some, and despite bunches of kittens in the spring, you hardly see any make it to the winter. I think feral cats have short, nasty and brutish lives as a result unless food is put out for them. Those that are fed by well-intentioned neighbors look better, true, but only those. They're not getting fat from eating wild birds and mice and so on.

Sorry, but this just doesn't make sense. Feral cats are thriving in the wild. Why wouldn't they? Even a domestic moggy is a skillful predator. Now take a cat that was probably born in the wild. Grew up hunting for food from very young, and is more than capable of feeding itself, and its young.

We are so used to pampering our pets. Thinking that feeding them tins of crap, is better than fresh meat. Humans eh!

Personally, most of the true ferals i've seen look bigger than average for a cat. I don't mean big as in obese, but tall and sleak. Just like fox's, you see the odd diseased or injured one, but as a whole, most are healthy and thriving.

c.p.w.g.w

o1s1n wrote: »

No bladder problems here with my two or any of my friends indoor cats, first I've hard of it.

Even if so, I think it's better for their health than risking them getting mauled by a dog/run over by a car/eating something poisonous/falling off something high and breaking a limb. Indoor cats statistically live longer lives.

I don't want to be getting down on another cat owner, but you really do have no idea what your cats have done while out in the wild. You might have taken a few birds off of them, but they may have left a trail of destruction through nests and other birds that you'll never know about.

I'm not sure if you remember, but when I was growing up as a kid, people would let their dogs out to roam about the place. That was put a stop to and looking back, the idea now sounds ridiculous.

I'd say some day soon we'll be thinking the same way about pet cats.

With the bladder thing, my vet(long in the game & highly regarded) said he only started to see it when apartment living became a thing, he actually had to look it up in his books at the time because it was so rare(late 80's) he sees it a lot now. But as he said, once the cars aren't bored they are normally fine...

Cats out and about isn't the same as a dog now, cats tend to run away, never seen a cat run and attack a human like a dog...

em_cat

Most of our cats were indoor and the ones that went out never left our gardens as they were a : lazy and b: always indoors by nightfall and we didn’t have cat flaps. I always played with our cats like I did our dogs so maybe that’s why they didn’t wander at night IDK. We often had feral running around but can’t remember if TNR was a thing back then but do remember the state of them, skinny, matted, FIV and a host of other issues.

We had barn owls when I was growing up along with hens, bats, Shelties that we’re working dogs, but pure pets along with a goat. I don’t think we often had rodent problems, but that was probably due the owls and a Shelties.

Feral cats are over populated and definitely need to be controlled but to advocate PTS instead of TNR is madness and cruel.

kildare lad

I know this is from Australia but still , people who own cats must realise that letting their cats out all day does serious damage to wildlife .

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/may/15/keep-pet-cats-indoors-say-researchers-who-found-they-kill-230m-native-australian-animals-each-year

The new analysis on pet cats drew on recent studies that had used a range of techniques to understand their hunting habits, including GPS trackers, video collars, analysis of scats and surveys of owners.

The study found each feral cat kills an average 576 native birds, mammals and reptiles per year, while pet cats kill an average of 110 native animals every year – 40 reptiles, 38 birds and 32 mammals.

In total, this meant pet cats were killing 66.9m native mammals, 79.7m native birds and 82.9m native reptiles every year.


I remember having an argument with a woman on a wildlife page on Facebook , it ended up that she has 5 outdoors cats and she can live with them bringing home birds because she likes cats, I asked her what's she's doing on a wildlife page then , She just laughed at my comment . A few days later there was a post about people poisoning buzzards and she was giving out stink about the people that poisoned them . I couldn't get my head around , she's ok with her outdoors cats killing loads of birds every year cos she likes cats but when someone poisons a buzzard she goes mad . People with outdoors cats on wildlife groups , they don't see the hypocrisy in themselves

kildare lad

em_cat wrote: »

Feral cats are over populated and definitely need to be controlled but to advocate PTS instead of TNR is madness and cruel.

So putting a cat to sleep is cruel but neutering a cat and releasing him back into the wild killing loads of wildlife is ok . I scratch my head

Eddie B

kildare lad wrote: »

I know this is from Australia but still , people who own cats must realise that letting their cats out all day does serious damage to wildlife .

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/may/15/keep-pet-cats-indoors-say-researchers-who-found-they-kill-230m-native-australian-animals-each-year

The new analysis on pet cats drew on recent studies that had used a range of techniques to understand their hunting habits, including GPS trackers, video collars, analysis of scats and surveys of owners.

The study found each feral cat kills an average 576 native birds, mammals and reptiles per year, while pet cats kill an average of 110 native animals every year – 40 reptiles, 38 birds and 32 mammals.

In total, this meant pet cats were killing 66.9m native mammals, 79.7m native birds and 82.9m native reptiles every year.


I remember having an argument with a woman on a wildlife page on Facebook , it ended up that she has 5 outdoors cats and she can live with them bringing home birds because she likes cats, I asked her what's she's doing on a wildlife page then , She just laughed at my comment . A few days later there was a post about people poisoning buzzards and she was giving out stink about the people that poisoned them . I couldn't get my head around , she's ok with her outdoors cats killing loads of birds every year cos she likes cats but when someone poisons a buzzard she goes mad . People with outdoors cats on wildlife groups , they don't see the hypocrisy in themselves

Excellent post, and very informative. For those who do like keeping cats, I know it must be a hard subject. Being responsible for your own cats, and not supporting those who let theirs stray all over the countryside, is as much as you can do. That of course goes for dog owners too.

zerosugarbuzz

Eddie B wrote: »

I am actually shocked that people on this forum are OK with allowing cats to roam the countryside to kill our native wildlife species. CATCH, NEUTER, RELEASE. What a load of bull. CATCH, and PUT TO SLEEP, is the only way to deal with this menace. Shame on those who turn a blind eye.

O by all means, have whatever pet you want. Be it cat, dog, goldfish, or whatever. BUT keep them on your property, or on a leash. No it's or buts, just be a responsible pet owner.

What native wild life are you specifically referring to? Mink, ferrets, rats foxes? Or is it just birds. If its birds I think you may have missed the absolute viciousness between the various species be it crows, magpies or even the simple robin (simple til angered). Are you actually familar with nature at all, maybe just on TV?

dodderangler

BloodBath wrote: »

I don't think you have much of a clue about cats at all tbh. Claiming a single cat can kill thousands of birds a year and that they catch rabbits and will drop a dead rabbit to chase and kill another 1. That a cat will kill a whole chicken coop? Most cats wouldn't go anywhere near a chicken coop. All nonsense.

Where are you getting this ****e out of? Farmers giving out about them as well. What are ye on about? Is it killing your livestock? No it's not.

Talking about damage to native species? Farming has done more damage to native species than anything else. Get your own house in order.

Mate seriously cop onto yourself. Ive seen it. Hunting a long long time.
You clearly have no clue on the difference between a feral and a housecat when it comes to being around poultry etc. Get out of here trying to be smart you fool. Stay at home and play with your cats.

dodderangler

kildare lad wrote: »

So putting a cat to sleep is cruel but neutering a cat and releasing him back into the wild killing loads of wildlife is ok . I scratch my head

I forgot we are on a section that belongs to nature lovers and animals lovers that love them from the TV or their home. They dont venture outdoors at all. We know exactly what they do out there. Because we actually go outside man. Im done. This page has been taken over by animal and pet issue crowd.
One claiming a cat wouldn't take out a whole coop!! What a clown.

zerosugarbuzz

dodderangler wrote: »

Mate seriously cop onto yourself. Ive seen it. Hunting a long long time.
You clearly have no clue on the difference between a feral and a housecat when it comes to being around poultry etc. Get out of here trying to be smart you fool. Stay at home and play with your cats.

So "I've seen it, hunting a long time". So you actually hunt and kill innocent animals for sport yourself yet you object to a cat killing out of hunger or simply natural instincts.... The mind boggles, justify that.

dodderangler

zerosugarbuzz wrote: »

So "I've seen it, hunting a long time". So you actually hunt and kill innocent animals for sport yourself yet you object to a cat killing out of hunger or simply natural instincts.... The mind boggles, justify that.

For sport? Guess you've never tasted rabbit, duck, pheasant, snipe, deer, hare, pigeon, woodcock
You prefer someone else to kill it for you so you buy it in the shop huh!!!? Mind boggles that people so narrow-minded still exist!!!

Grolschevik

kildare lad wrote: »

I know this is from Australia but still s

And thus is completely irrelevant to Ireland, Britain, and most of Europe. Places like Australia are different ecological cases.

Eddie B

zerosugarbuzz wrote: »

What native wild life are you specifically referring to? Mink, ferrets, rats foxes? Or is it just birds. If its birds I think you may have missed the absolute viciousness between the various species be it crows, magpies or even the simple robin (simple til angered). Are you actually familar with nature at all, maybe just on TV?

I am very familiar with nature. Actually volunteered for various projects including a ground nesting bird project, and a Pine Marten rehabilitation project. How bout yourself? No, watching spring watch doesn't count.

So let's get this right. You see all animals living in the wild in Ireland as equal. Like the feral cat is as of equal importance as say, the Red Squirrel? Just let them all live happily ever after. Afternoon tea and biscuits, yadda yadda yadda. Better still, bring in a couple thousand wolves, snakes, and leopards. Sure they'll all live happily ever after.

Eddie B

Grolschevik wrote: »

And thus is completely irrelevant to Ireland, Britain, and most of Europe. Places like Australia are different ecological cases.

Why is it irrelevant? Have cats a positive or negative affect on wildlife?

Grolschevik

Eddie B wrote: »

Why is it irrelevant? Have cats a positive or negative affect on wildlife?

Hardly any effect in terms of overall population numbers and balance in Britain and Ireland. As I've posted several times in this thread, the situation is completely different in Australia.

Eddie B

Grolschevik wrote: »

Hardly any effect in terms of overall population numbers and balance in Britain and Ireland. As I've posted several times in this thread, the situation is completely different in Australia.

Any links to studies done here in Ireland, or has their even been studies done on the impact of cat predation here?

As reguards Australia. Even though it is well known that cats have a drastic effect on indigenous wildlife, there is still a huge outcry from cat lovers.

BloodBath

dodderangler wrote: »

Mate seriously cop onto yourself. Ive seen it. Hunting a long long time.
You clearly have no clue on the difference between a feral and a housecat when it comes to being around poultry etc. Get out of here trying to be smart you fool. Stay at home and play with your cats.

Great reply. Where is your evidence for a cat taking out a whole coop of chickens or any of the the other nonsense you are spouting?

I can see 1 killing 1 chicken, especially younger ones. Going in and killing a whole coop though? No chance. I've heard of foxes doing that.

Stop pretending you give a crap about local wildlife as well. Like most farmers you only care about the bottom line and will be the first to shoot the native wildlife, protected or not, if it starts effecting your profits.

Grolschevik

Eddie B wrote: »

Any links to studies done here in Ireland, or has their even been studies done on the impact of cat predation here?
.

Don't know about the Republic specifically, but the RSPB thing I linked to in my first post related to the entire UK, which includes the North. Not too much to expect that its conclusions would be applicable in the rest of Ireland as well, especially given the social and cultural similarities in demographics and pet ownership between the two islands and jurisdictions.


Edit: some stuff thrown up by a quick google:

Report on research by US scientists: “Widely-held belief that outdoor cats threaten biodiversity and public health challenged by new research.”

“The article exposes the faulty reasoning that equates this challenge with science denialism, shows the evidence that cats pose a threat is uncertain, calls attention to the ethical and policy questions that must still be fully explored, and supports a more nuanced, dialogic, and collaborative approach to how people, cats, and biodiversity are understood.”

https://theecologist.org/2019/jun/19/cat-blaming-scientifically-and-morally-wrong?fbclid=IwAR3saRvQt8jgycXYCNDBKbhhI42xD6XvaVdRdfCH6_nyJ1lE8XlI63alVbY

And an Australian focus:

"Virtually every study of outdoor cats assumes that because cats in some habitats threaten biodiversity, they are a threat across all habitats everywhere. This is a projection from a small set of localized case studies to the world at large. In other words, a guesstimate.

This is why the ranges of birds and mammals preyed upon that are cited above are so wide. Such guesstimates are neither descriptive nor predictive of the world. Some advocates have criticized such studies as junk science. For a particularly sustained critique see Vox Felina, which aims to “improve the lives of feral cats” through more thorough discussion. I think calling the academic literature junk science overstates the case a tad. Such studies can improve our understanding about what happens in similar situations, even if they cannot be generalized to all cats everywhere.

These studies, though, make little effort to understand the complexities of outdoor cats interacting with wildlife. When they do, the picture they reveal is quite different from what the guesstimates assume."

https://theconversation.com/australias-war-on-feral-cats-shaky-science-missing-ethics-47444?fbclid=IwAR1ARW5vR8q7Fo9VxjXmUBRPfetSfv7W1sglj8-4Orznwx5HNAkVuDWib5o

Eddie B

Grolschevik wrote: »

Don't know about the Republic specifically, but the RSPB thing I linked to in my first post related to the entire UK, which includes the North. Not too much to expect that its conclusions would be applicable in the rest of Ireland as well, especially given the social and cultural similarities in demographics and pet ownership between the two islands and jurisdictions.

Sorry I must have missed it. I'll have a look, thanks

em_cat

kildare lad wrote: »

So putting a cat to sleep is cruel but neutering a cat and releasing him back into the wild killing loads of wildlife is ok . I scratch my head

Putting a domestic species to sleep without it being medically warranted is by its very nature cruel. Cats like any other species are driven to procreate, to continue on, not die out ...etc.

AndrewJRenko

em_cat wrote: »

Putting a domestic species to sleep without it being medically warranted is by its very nature cruel. Cats like any other species are driven to procreate, to continue on, not die out ...etc.

Username checks out.

PsychoPete

My cat kills one or two birds a week, impossible to get a collar and bell on her without getting your arm clawed

kildare lad

em_cat wrote: »

Putting a domestic species to sleep without it being medically warranted is by its very nature cruel. Cats like any other species are driven to procreate, to continue on, not die out ...etc.

Feral cats are domesticated though , they're an invasive wild animal and should be treated as such

kildare lad

Eddie B wrote: »

Any links to studies done here in Ireland, or has their even been studies done on the impact of cat predation here?

As reguards Australia. Even though it is well known that cats have a drastic effect on indigenous wildlife, there is still a huge outcry from cat lovers.

Ye it's ridiculous , they'd rather a species went extinct than something bad happens feral cats. It's that bad over there , they've to put the endangered small mammals in fenced ringed enclosures in a few wildlife park to stop them going extinct. And yet the cats lovers still give out and protest when they try and do culls to protect wildlife. Sad people

dodderangler

BloodBath wrote: »

Great reply. Where is your evidence for a cat taking out a whole coop of chickens or any of the the other nonsense you are spouting?

I can see 1 killing 1 chicken, especially younger ones. Going in and killing a whole coop though? No chance. I've heard of foxes doing that.

Stop pretending you give a crap about local wildlife as well. Like most farmers you only care about the bottom line and will be the first to shoot the native wildlife, protected or not, if it starts effecting your profits.

Wrong. Foxes despite the fact they do come to chucken coops they hardly take more than they need. A feral cat will and keep in mind yet again we ARE talking about FERAL CATS!! Feral cats are ten times worse than a house cat when it comes to killing. Tell you what. Why don't you go out and get close to a feral cat. Let me know how you get on then seeing as they're so sweet natured as you seem to believe!!! You clearly have no contact with the outside world mate.

dodderangler

BloodBath wrote: »

Great reply. Where is your evidence for a cat taking out a whole coop of chickens or any of the the other nonsense you are spouting?

I can see 1 killing 1 chicken, especially younger ones. Going in and killing a whole coop though? No chance. I've heard of foxes doing that.

Stop pretending you give a crap about local wildlife as well. Like most farmers you only care about the bottom line and will be the first to shoot the native wildlife, protected or not, if it starts effecting your profits.

And who in the name of God said I was a farmer?? Take the head out mate. Stop smoking those silly sticks.
I hunt. I am out there seeing numbers of animals grow because we have reduced the predator side of it. Grouse numbers are back up. Corncrake numbers steadily coming back. Rabbit numbers coming back and hares. Red squirrel too and guess who helped them come back ? It wasn't you lot sitting on your couch acting like you care and giving your 2 cents worth of knowledge acring like you know what happens out there! No sir it was not!!
Suppose you'll tell me foxes don't do any harm out there either?

dodderangler

PsychoPete wrote: »

My cat kills one or two birds a week, impossible to get a collar and bell on her without getting your arm clawed

so you have a pet cat that you cannot handle?? And i doubt she kills only one or two. Those are what you know of.
Anyone else see the ridiculousness of having a pet that you cannot hold without being destroyed?

OpenYourEyes

Grolschevik wrote: »

How long does an animal have to exist in an ecosystem before it stops being "artificially introduced" and "non-native"? I've head the same claims about magpies, for example. Usually from hunters/trappers.

It's not like cats only got here in the '40s!

It never stops being artificially introduced or non-native! There is the case for species such as rabbits and fallow deer where they're here long-enough, and aren't deemed to be having a significant negative impact, that they're considered "naturalised" i.e. not of much concern. But that will never be the case for cats, mink etc.

You've heard them about Magpies but the difference is that was incorrect - Magpies got here under their own steam, so it's natural colonisation in the same way as the Little Egret and Collared Dove. That's one of those myths that has persisted, likely by people who want to further demonise them.

OpenYourEyes

Mod Note: This thread will be locked soon if the personal insults don't stop!

Also, note that hunting is a legitimate activity recognised by the EU Birds Directive and almost all wildlife conservation organisations. With that in mind, I don't want any of the types of insults in the posts below or I'll start issuing bans. If you don't like hunting, that's fine and you're entitled to your opinion but keep it civil. No more warnings - just bans.

BloodBath wrote: »

Great reply. Where is your evidence for a cat taking out a whole coop of chickens or any of the the other nonsense you are spouting?

I can see 1 killing 1 chicken, especially younger ones. Going in and killing a whole coop though? No chance. I've heard of foxes doing that.

Stop pretending you give a crap about local wildlife as well. Like most farmers you only care about the bottom line and will be the first to shoot the native wildlife, protected or not, if it starts effecting your profits.

zerosugarbuzz wrote: »

So "I've seen it, hunting a long time". So you actually hunt and kill innocent animals for sport yourself yet you object to a cat killing out of hunger or simply natural instincts.... The mind boggles, justify that.

Storm 10

dodderangler wrote: »

Red squirrel too and guess who helped them come back

Red Squirrels are coming back because Pine Martins have been introduced into the wild and they are killing the Grey Squirrel its a known fact that Pine Martins will take Chickens wipe out birds and their nest etc, as a matter of fact I never knew that the Woodpecker will take young birds as well its not all Cats which I presume you hate going by your posts. There is a huge number of species out there who are doing more than enough damage to our Bird population, you cant blame the Cat for everything which you appear to do.

You say you are hunting a long time I would love to know the damage you are doing to our wildlife, put the gun away.

AndrewJRenko

PsychoPete wrote: »

My cat kills one or two birds a week, impossible to get a collar and bell on her without getting your arm clawed

The problem isn't so much getting the collar on her as keeping it on her. I don't think the proposal to put collars/bells on feral cats is workable. All collars are designed to tear off if put under significant pressure to avoid choking. Our last cat wouldn't keep a collar on her for more than a day. If she brought back most of her kills as presents, her kill rate was about once every three months.

OpenYourEyes

Storm 10 wrote: »

Red Squirrels are coming back because Pine Martins have been introduced into the wild and they are killing the Grey Squirrel its a known fact that Pine Martins will take Chickens wipe out birds and their nest etc, as a matter of fact I never knew that the Woodpecker will take young birds as well its not all Cats which I presume you hate going by your posts. There is a huge number of species out there who are doing more than enough damage to our Bird population, you cant blame the Cat for everything which you appear to do.

You say you are hunting a long time I would love to know the damage you are doing to our wildlife, put the gun away.

Mod Note: Banned for doing the exact thing I warned not to do in the post immediately above!

Eddie B

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

The problem isn't so much getting the collar on her as keeping it on her. I don't think the proposal to put collars/bells on feral cats is workable. All collars are designed to tear off if put under significant pressure to avoid choking. Our last cat wouldn't keep a collar on her for more than a day. If she brought back most of her kills as presents, her kill rate was about once every three months.

I honestly don't think collars and bells make any difference anyway.

OpenYourEyes

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

The problem isn't so much getting the collar on her as keeping it on her. I don't think the proposal to put collars/bells on feral cats is workable. All collars are designed to tear off if put under significant pressure to avoid choking. Our last cat wouldn't keep a collar on her for more than a day. If she brought back most of her kills as presents, her kill rate was about once every three months.

I've heard plenty of anecdotal evidence of cats learning to hunt with the bell/collar - altering their movements to ensure it doesn't give them away. I've even heard one person say their cat had learned to cope with two bells! They're better than nothing, but certainly not the perfect solution to the whole problem.

This recent paper on cat predation says only 18% of kills were brought home!
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2351989420307393

dodderangler

Storm 10 wrote: »

Red Squirrels are coming back because Pine Martins have been introduced into the wild and they are killing the Grey Squirrel its a known fact that Pine Martins will take Chickens wipe out birds and their nest etc, as a matter of fact I never knew that the Woodpecker will take young birds as well its not all Cats which I presume you hate going by your posts. There is a huge number of species out there who are doing more than enough damage to our Bird population, you cant blame the Cat for everything which you appear to do.

You say you are hunting a long time I would love to know the damage you are doing to our wildlife, put the gun away.

Partially correct. So the numbers of greys being trapped and shot by hunters means nothing because a pine marten is back??

Eddie B

OpenYourEyes wrote: »

I've heard plenty of anecdotal evidence of cats learning to hunt with the bell/collar - altering their movements to ensure it doesn't give them away. I've even heard one person say their cat had learned to cope with two bells! They're better than nothing, but certainly not the perfect solution to the whole problem.

This recent paper on cat predation says only 18% of kills were brought home!
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2351989420307393

The way a cat hunts naturally, means that there is no sudden movement until the last seconds of the hunt. Therefore, the bell is silent until it is too late for the most part. A cat rally doesnt have to adapt to wearing a bell. Better than nothing I suppose.

PsychoPete

dodderangler wrote: »

so you have a pet cat that you cannot handle?? And i doubt she kills only one or two. Those are what you know of.
Anyone else see the ridiculousness of having a pet that you cannot hold without being destroyed?

I just leave her do her thing, she keeps the rats out of the yard which is the main thing

Grolschevik

OpenYourEyes wrote: »

It never stops being artificially introduced or non-native! There is the case for species such as rabbits and fallow deer where they're here long-enough, and aren't deemed to be having a significant negative impact, that they're considered "naturalised" i.e. not of much concern. But that will never be the case for cats, mink etc..

I'm interested in the basis for this. Cats have been on this island for thousands of years; mink only about 70. I don't understand the basis for comparison.

Or is it the case that cats are supposed to be domesticated, and that it's when they go feral that they count as invasive and non-natural in whatever habitat they happen to be operating in?

Eddie B

Grolschevik wrote: »

I'm interested in the basis for this. Cats have been on this island for thousands of years; mink only about 70. I don't understand the basis for comparison.

Or is it the case that cats are supposed to be domesticated, and that it's when they go feral that they count as invasive and non-natural in whatever habitat they happen to be operating in?

Well for me, that's exactly it. House cats are not seen as part of our wildlife species. You won't find them in any wildlife books, so for me, it is unnatural to have them in the wild. They are here a long time yes, but like dogs, have been kept as pets. We don't have true wild cats here in Ireland. In Scotland, the wild cat is in danger of extinction partly because of inter breeding with feral cats. We wouldn't be ok with feral dogs going around, so why would we with feral cats.

OpenYourEyes

Grolschevik wrote: »

I'm interested in the basis for this. Cats have been on this island for thousands of years; mink only about 70. I don't understand the basis for comparison.

Or is it the case that cats are supposed to be domesticated, and that it's when they go feral that they count as invasive and non-natural in whatever habitat they happen to be operating in?

Mink are having a negative effect on our native wildlife. Cats are having a negative effect on our native wildlife. Grey Squirrels are having a negative effect on our native wildlife. That's the commonality.

Some species such as Fallow Deer and Rabbits have been here for a long time and aren't observed to have much of a negative effect on our native wildlife (though I'm sure there are botanists who would disagree) so they're considered 'naturalised'. Sika, on the other hand, are increasing hugely in numbers and distribution and are hybridising with our Red Deer so are seen to have more of a negative impact than Fallow Deer, hence why there's generally more of a negative opinion of Sika than Fallow Deer.

(that's my attempt at succinctly describing something that's quite complex and not necessarily consistent)

I'm not sure if there's much evidence for cats existing in Ireland in a feral and widespread state until relatively recently?

Grolschevik

OpenYourEyes wrote: »

Mink are having a negative effect on our native wildlife. Cats are having a negative effect on our native wildlife. Grey Squirrels are having a negative effect on our native wildlife. That's the commonality.

Some species such as Fallow Deer and Rabbits have been here for a long time and aren't observed to have much of a negative effect on our native wildlife (though I'm sure there are botanists who would disagree) so they're considered 'naturalised'. Sika, on the other hand, are increasing hugely in numbers and distribution and are hybridising with our Red Deer so are seen to have more of a negative impact than Fallow Deer, hence why there's generally more of a negative opinion of Sika than Fallow Deer.

(that's my attempt at succinctly describing something that's quite complex and not necessarily consistent)

I'm not sure if there's much evidence for cats existing in Ireland in a feral and widespread state until relatively recently?

I've no evidence, but I'd be surprised if there haven't been feral cats in Ireland as long as there have been domestic. That said, there has surely been an explosion in numbers of cats held domestically, which must surely imply a concomitant explsion in numbers of ferals.

But I think the negative effect thing migt be overestimated; it's certainly contested. The argument seems to be, yes, cats kill loads and loads of stuff, but not enough to negatively affect overall population balance in prey species. Ref the RSPB thing on wild birds in the UK I linked to before, and the stats on Blue Tit population. [From post 20: (https://www.rspb.org.uk/birds-and-wi...ird-declines/). Again, to put this in context, and to take Blue Tits alone, it is estimated that 25 million more Tits hatch each year than are necessary to sustain the Blue Tit population as it stands. That many die anyway.]

There's also this, which I found persuasive: American researchers put cat-cams on a sample of domestic cats to track their activies. They concluded that "only 30% of [cats] ever caught anything. The number of victims was 2.1 per cat each week, 13% of them birds. This suggested that house cats kill about 500m birds every year in the United States. Feral, or ‘stray’, cats were not included in the study."

Extrapolated to Ireland, the writer of this piece (https://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/columnists/arid-20231047.html) suggested that "If the predatory behaviour of US and Irish cats is similar, we have between nine and 25m bird casualties here annually".

However, "The domestic cat is more of an alien at the far side of the Atlantic than it is here ... On our side of the Atlantic birds have ‘co-evolved’ with wild cats over millennia. They have learned to cope with them. In America, the house cat was introduced by Europeans comparatively recently so the native birds may be less well equipped to deal with it. It takes time to establish equilibrium between species."

That said, "scientists at the Smithsonian Conservation Biology Institute and the US Fish and Wildlife Service have come up with new estimates; they argue that cats do much more damage than was previously thought".

In the US, "stray cats, living wild, do much more damage than domestic ones, according to the new report. They account for 69% of all bird deaths due to cats and 89% of mammal deaths. Between 1.4 and 3.7bn birds are killed annually by cats in the US and the number of mammal victims may be as high as 20.7bn."

So, in terms of human-introduced factors in the US, "More birds and mammals die as a result of cats than are poisoned, collide with windows or are struck by vehicles and wind-turbines."

Grolschevik

Eddie B wrote: »

Well for me, that's exactly it. House cats are not seen as part of our wildlife species. You won't find them in any wildlife books, so for me, it is unnatural to have them in the wild. They are here a long time yes, but like dogs, have been kept as pets. We don't have true wild cats here in Ireland. In Scotland, the wild cat is in danger of extinction partly because of inter breeding with feral cats. We wouldn't be ok with feral dogs going around, so why would we with feral cats.

That's fair enough!

blackbox

Horses - they're not native.

Coming over here and eating our grass...

.

dodderangler

blackbox wrote: »

Horses - they're not native.

Coming over here and eating our grass...

.

Horses arent running rampant killing species already in decline!!! Try again!

AndrewJRenko

OpenYourEyes wrote: »

I've heard plenty of anecdotal evidence of cats learning to hunt with the bell/collar - altering their movements to ensure it doesn't give them away. I've even heard one person say their cat had learned to cope with two bells! They're better than nothing, but certainly not the perfect solution to the whole problem.

This recent paper on cat predation says only 18% of kills were brought home!
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2351989420307393

It also says that most hunting was at night, so if you keep your cat in at night, you've reduced the issue dramatically.

BloodBath

dodderangler wrote: »

Wrong. Foxes despite the fact they do come to chucken coops they hardly take more than they need. A feral cat will and keep in mind yet again we ARE talking about FERAL CATS!! Feral cats are ten times worse than a house cat when it comes to killing. Tell you what. Why don't you go out and get close to a feral cat. Let me know how you get on then seeing as they're so sweet natured as you seem to believe!!! You clearly have no contact with the outside world mate.

Right calm down. I've never heard of it happening and I know a few farmers who keep chickens. Must be some crazy wild cats out in the sticks.

I don't think they are sweet natured. They are predators with hunting instincts and they breed like rabbits. They need to be neutered to control the numbers.

Having millions of them as pets causes problems. I'm not saying they don't.

dodderangler

BloodBath wrote: »

Right calm down. I've never heard of it happening and I know a few farmers who keep chickens. Must be some crazy wild cats out in the sticks.

I don't think they are sweet natured. They are predators with hunting instincts and they breed like rabbits. They need to be neutered to control the numbers.

Having millions of them as pets causes problems. I'm not saying they don't.

Sorry I thought it was ankther fella.
Neutering them will only stop them breeding but it won't stop them coming out and killing mate. And then you've got house cats etc that'll meet them and mate and maybe they won't go back home then you'll still have feral kittens about.
Wont stop them killing

zerosugarbuzz

dodderangler wrote: »

Sorry I thought it was ankther fella.
Neutering them will only stop them breeding but it won't stop them coming out and killing mate. And then you've got house cats etc that'll meet them and mate and maybe they won't go back home then you'll still have feral kittens about.
Wont stop them killing

As you call yourself dodder angler it’s not a huge leap of faith to assume you fish. Do you not see the irony in a man complaining about cats killing when he himself enjoys killing for sport.