Will the tech giants close buildings in the docks

biggebruv · 27-07-2020 10:17pm #1

They have like the whole area if reports today about not coming back properly till next year just why do they need all them buildings doesn’t google alone have like 6 or something

Eric Cartman · 27-07-2020 10:26pm

the buildings were always more about dick swinging than needing the staff space. They'll keep them. The demand for the apartments however....

Man with broke phone · 27-07-2020 10:30pm

Alot of hotels being built around them, then other offices just wanting to be beside them to try and be perceived cool as them. Then alot of crap sandwhich bars and centras around them. Its probably safe to say a shopping district might even grow around the area.

Out of all the places in Dublin Id imagine around the docklands north and south will be safest.

ExMachina1000 · 27-07-2020 10:30pm

The United states is preparing some serious financial incentives to try and lure them home while at the same time Europe is looking for every excuse to try and tax them.

One day those buildings might close up permanently

27-07-2020 10:33pm

A former employer of mine was in the Docklands but they pulled out of Ireland due to the sky rocketing rents.

Eric Cartman · 27-07-2020 10:35pm

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

The United states is preparing some serious financial incentives to try and lure them home while at the same time Europe is looking for every excuse to try and tax them.

One day those buildings might close up permanently

fighting against the apple money was the best thing we did to keep them here. As long as we can be Europes little gateway to the states for money we'll stay, beyond that no dice.

ronivek · 28-07-2020 1:13am

Eric Cartman wrote: »

the buildings were always more about dick swinging than needing the staff space. They'll keep them. The demand for the apartments however....

I have no idea what planet you live on. Office space in Ireland especially for large multinationals is difficult to come by and expensive. They certainly wouldn't be investing tens of millions for the purpose of 'dick swinging'.

For example: Microsoft recently spent €134 million on a brand new office building built to spec. Even before they moved into it they were already outgrowing it; and subsequently they're looking to let additional space in the Docklands for around 400 staff.

28-07-2020 1:22am

ronivek wrote: »

I have no idea what planet you live on. Office space in Ireland especially for large multinationals is difficult to come by and expensive. They certainly wouldn't be investing tens of millions for the purpose of 'dick swinging'.

For example: Microsoft recently spent €134 million on a brand new office building built to spec. Even before they moved into it they were already outgrowing it; and subsequently they're looking to let additional space in the Docklands for around 400 staff.

Ah, to be fair there is an element of showing off involved. Otherwise they'd have just built these places in Westmeath somewhere on the cheapest plot of land they could find, and it'd be a basic warehouse/office block.

Building mega-buildings and putting them in the most expensive areas is a bit of a gloaty move. At the same time, so is driving anything other than the most basic of basic cars. If you have the money, you may aswell spend it and keep jobs going.

AlmightyCushion · 28-07-2020 1:24am

This is a friend of a friend story so could be bullshít or exaggerated but here it goes. Said friend of a friend has said that the company they work for will be allowing working from home from now on for all staff and they are evening looking to sell the building they are in and move to a smaller one.

Obviously, I can't see every company doing that but I imagine a few are certainly looking at the cost savings.

ronivek · 28-07-2020 1:34am

Deleted User wrote: »

Ah, to be fair there is an element of showing off involved. Otherwise they'd have just built these places in Westmeath somewhere on the cheapest plot of land they could find, and it'd be a basic warehouse/office block.

Yes; I'm sure those massive multinationals are building and letting in the Docklands and other areas of Dublin to show off. Not for any other reasons such as:

Access to public transport.
Closer to amenities, night-life, healthcare etc.
Closer to international travel hubs.
Closer to residential areas and hotels.

Victor · 28-07-2020 5:20am

Deleted User wrote: »

Ah, to be fair there is an element of showing off involved. Otherwise they'd have just built these places in Westmeath somewhere on the cheapest plot of land they could find, and it'd be a basic warehouse/office block.

The companies want to attract talented staff. These staff do not want to live in Westmeath, given that Dublin has better amenities.

Building mega-buildings and putting them in the most expensive areas is a bit of a gloaty move.

When many of the buildings were built, it wan't an expensive area.

Man with broke phone · 28-07-2020 6:18am

Victor wrote: »

The companies want to attract talented staff. These staff do not want to live in Westmeath, given that Dublin has better amenities.

When many of the buildings were built, it wan't an expensive area.

SO annoying when computer people keep talking about talented staff etc. Alot of these places are pretty much call centres. I know of one that is mainly south americans working south american time and answeing a list of questions off a sheet of paper because my old company have a mainrenance contract on the building. Talented staff. Only talented fella in the building was the one fixing the air con.

Edgware · 28-07-2020 6:25am

Man with broke phone wrote: »

SO annoying when computer people keep talking about talented staff etc. Alot of these places are pretty much call centres. I know of one that is mainly south americans working south american time and answeing a list of questions off a sheet of paper because my old company have a mainrenance contract on the building. Talented staff. Only talented fella in the building was the one fixing the air con.

Chip on the shoulder time. The air con man doesnt get paid for fixing it, he gets paid for finding the problem and knowing how to fix it. Same with these "call centres". People with expertise servicing customers all over the world

Wanderer78 · 28-07-2020 6:28am

Edgware wrote:

Chip on the shoulder time. The air con man doesnt get paid for fixing it, he gets paid for finding the problem and knowing how to fix it. Same with these "call centres". People with expertise servicing customers all over the world

Even though I respect the work of those in the game, I do suspect they're somewhat right about the call centres

Victor · 28-07-2020 6:38am

Man with broke phone wrote: »

SO annoying when computer people keep talking about talented staff etc. Alot of these places are pretty much call centres.

Those call centres are in East Point or Mahon, not the Docks.

krissovo · 28-07-2020 6:45am

Man with broke phone wrote: »

SO annoying when computer people keep talking about talented staff etc. Alot of these places are pretty much call centres. I know of one that is mainly south americans working south american time and answeing a list of questions off a sheet of paper because my old company have a mainrenance contract on the building. Talented staff. Only talented fella in the building was the one fixing the air con.

The so called Multinational “call center” I work in which sounds very similar to your description is in fact highly technical work. These lads average salary would be in the mid 70k range, starting pay is 48k and rises to 60k in 6 months after probation.

One example of what they do happened last weekend, every ATM in Mexico failed for a large global bank. These “Untalented” staff got them up and running within the hour solving a networking issue in their data center. Yes they do follow some scripts but they support 100’s of customers who have 1000’s of different configurations.

ronivek · 28-07-2020 6:46am

Man with broke phone wrote: »

SO annoying when computer people keep talking about talented staff etc. Alot of these places are pretty much call centres. I know of one that is mainly south americans working south american time and answeing a list of questions off a sheet of paper because my old company have a mainrenance contract on the building. Talented staff. Only talented fella in the building was the one fixing the air con.

Whilst there are probably some smaller operations which operate as 'call centres' in the manner you describe; that would not describe the vast majority of technology multinationals (or probably many other sectors) which are based here.

There are rooms in several places I have worked where someone such as yourself may *think* they're in a 'call centre'; and then I'd tell you that some of these people probably make more in a single year than your house is worth and you might think again about calling it a 'call centre'.

Eric Cartman · 28-07-2020 8:08am

Man with broke phone wrote: »

SO annoying when computer people keep talking about talented staff etc. Alot of these places are pretty much call centres. I know of one that is mainly south americans working south american time and answeing a list of questions off a sheet of paper because my old company have a mainrenance contract on the building. Talented staff. Only talented fella in the building was the one fixing the air con.

+1 , google dublin ‘average salary 135k’ but of 1000+ people in the building only 150 work for google , the rest are caterers, cleaners, facilities, outsourced call centre, outsourced telemarketing etc... who just get free pizza and pull home 20-30k

ronivek · 28-07-2020 8:36am

Eric Cartman wrote: »

+1 , google dublin ‘average salary 135k’ but of 1000+ people in the building only 150 work for google , the rest are caterers, cleaners, facilities, outsourced call centre, outsourced telemarketing etc... who just get free pizza and pull home 20-30k

It doesn’t take that many support staff to run an office. And exactly how many minimum wage call centre people and telemarketers do you think Google would have in its Dublin City Centre offices? I’ll give you a hint: it’s none.

As for employee numbers there would be a significant proportion of contractors for sure; but it would be more like 4 full time permanent Google employees to 6 or so contractors. And many contractors would still be well paid.

nullzero · 28-07-2020 8:37am

We could have some of the largest and swankiest methadone clinics in the world for all the brass monkeys down that direction.

Cordell · 28-07-2020 8:39am

Man with broke phone wrote: »

SO annoying when computer people keep talking about talented staff etc. Alot of these places are pretty much call centres. I know of one that is mainly south americans working south american time and answeing a list of questions off a sheet of paper because my old company have a mainrenance contract on the building. Talented staff. Only talented fella in the building was the one fixing the air con.

Have one of them fix your phone, see if you can afford their rate.

drunkmonkey · 28-07-2020 8:40am

Google are letting employees stay at home until July 2021, there's a few exceptions like Greece. Ireland won't be reopening any time soon.

Atlantic Dawn · 28-07-2020 8:44am

There's potentially 2 outcomes for office space in Ireland, the first is that companies will need to double or triple existing space to comply with the 2 meter social distancing guidelines, the other outcome is they realise with staff working in some cases perfectly well from home they can actually offload some of their existing office space.

Dravokivich · 28-07-2020 8:53am

ronivek wrote: »

It doesn’t take that many support staff to run an office. And exactly how many minimum wage call centre people and telemarketers do you think Google would have in its Dublin City Centre offices? I’ll give you a hint: it’s none.

As for employee numbers there would be a significant proportion of contractors for sure; but it would be more like 4 full time permanent Google employees to 6 or so contractors. And many contractors would still be well paid.

Not directly for them, but they all use "managed service providers," and that usually comes down to, how low can we pay someone. A couple of years back when the Min Wage went up, all the 1st line call centre staff where i work got a raise!

beauf · 28-07-2020 8:55am

Brexit hasn't gone away either...

Eric Cartman · 28-07-2020 9:00am

Dravokivich wrote: »

Not directly for them, but they all use "managed service providers," and that usually comes down to, how low can we pay someone. A couple of years back when the Min Wage went up, all the 1st line call centre staff where i work got a raise!

this is it.

Google ad sales and google apps (premium email/drive etc... ) sales and support make up a lot of the staff in the google offices. They're script readers who are taught just enough about DNS to do their jobs. All run by a managed services company but even their team leaders are only on 36k

Dravokivich · 28-07-2020 9:14am

Eric Cartman wrote: »

this is it.

Google ad sales and google apps (premium email/drive etc... ) sales and support make up a lot of the staff in the google offices. They're script readers who are taught just enough about DNS to do their jobs. All run by a managed services company but even their team leaders are only on 36k

Not even Facebook review their own content!

un5byh7sqpd2x0 · 28-07-2020 9:17am

ronivek wrote: »

It doesn’t take that many support staff to run an office. And exactly how many minimum wage call centre people and telemarketers do you think Google would have in its Dublin City Centre offices? I’ll give you a hint: it’s none.

As for employee numbers there would be a significant proportion of contractors for sure; but it would be more like 4 full time permanent Google employees to 6 or so contractors. And many contractors would still be well paid.

Contractors in fact would be paid more than their salaried counterparts, by a long shot.

Fred Cryton · 28-07-2020 9:27am

Working from home is a fad guys. You're just in a little bubble now and don't see it. Employers will want you back chained to your office as before soon enough. I know this is hard to believe, but your employer doesn't trust you to give 100% attention to your job at home. And they're right not to let's be honest, aren't you reading Boards.ie right now.

Demand for office space may actually increase due to social distancing requirements and the end of "hot desking". Or at the very least it'll stay the same as maybe 20% of people manage to get away with working from home. But those people will regret it - out of sight and out of mind and all that.

beauf · 28-07-2020 9:52am

Working from home requires a different metric of measuring productivity. That Bob is sitting at his desk won't cut it.
Is Bob hitting his targets and achieving his objectives. Yes or No.

But I agree that some people can't move past seeing people in seats. They are usually the people who don't measure productivity.
After 4 months of lockdown, if you want to keep working at home, you should have a list of work done, projects completed.
If you sat at home making excuses about the WiFi, expect to be back in the office.

28-07-2020 10:44am

ronivek wrote: »

Yes; I'm sure those massive multinationals are building and letting in the Docklands and other areas of Dublin to show off. Not for any other reasons such as:
Access to public transport.

Closer to amenities, night-life, healthcare etc.

Closer to international travel hubs.

Closer to residential areas and hotels.

Unless you're already living within the M50, i'd imagine the commute from your home to westmeath VS to dublin city centre are probably similar. At peak times it can take me 90+ minutes from Drogheda to the City Centre.

If i was going the opposite direction, in 90 minutes I'd cover a lot more ground.

If you build a big ass factory in Leitrim or Roscommon, and stick a Microsoft Logo on it, houses will start getting built, and the people working there will start spending in the town. If the jobs you are offering are in any way half decent, staff aren't going to care where the job is located, as if they're already commuting to Dublin City Centre then they're unlikely to be commuting for a much longer time, anyway.

If I worked in a decent Google job and was told they were opening a new office in the middle of nowhere, i'd have no issue in moving my job. The only people who'd fight it are those already living in dublin city.

28-07-2020 11:05am

Fred Cryton wrote: »

Working from home is a fad guys. You're just in a little bubble now and don't see it. Employers will want you back chained to your office as before soon enough. I know this is hard to believe, but your employer doesn't trust you to give 100% attention to your job at home. And they're right not to let's be honest, aren't you reading Boards.ie right now.

Demand for office space may actually increase due to social distancing requirements and the end of "hot desking". Or at the very least it'll stay the same as maybe 20% of people manage to get away with working from home. But those people will regret it - out of sight and out of mind and all that.

Weird, I just got hired for a role where I'm permanently contracted to work from home. Software is just very suited to it. And it's been moving this way in software for years. Lockdown just sped it up.

awec · 28-07-2020 11:26am

Deleted User wrote: »

Unless you're already living within the M50, i'd imagine the commute from your home to westmeath VS to dublin city centre are probably similar. At peak times it can take me 90+ minutes from Drogheda to the City Centre.

If i was going the opposite direction, in 90 minutes I'd cover a lot more ground.

If you build a big ass factory in Leitrim or Roscommon, and stick a Microsoft Logo on it, houses will start getting built, and the people working there will start spending in the town. If the jobs you are offering are in any way half decent, staff aren't going to care where the job is located, as if they're already commuting to Dublin City Centre then they're unlikely to be commuting for a much longer time, anyway.

If I worked in a decent Google job and was told they were opening a new office in the middle of nowhere, i'd have no issue in moving my job. The only people who'd fight it are those already living in dublin city.

You really haven't a notion.

Google, Microsoft, Facebook etc are not competing for staff from Dublin vs Leitrim ffs. It's Dublin vs London vs Paris vs Stockholm etc etc.

If they stuck a big building in Leitrim and stuck a Google/Microsoft/Facebook logo on it they wouldn't get the staff they need, pure and simple. The talent would just not be available.

Eric Cartman · 28-07-2020 11:30am

awec wrote: »

You really haven't a notion.

Google, Microsoft, Facebook etc are not competing for staff from Dublin vs Leitrim ffs. It's Dublin vs London vs Paris vs Stockholm etc etc.

If they stuck a big building in Leitrim and stuck a Google/Microsoft/Facebook logo on it they wouldn't get the staff they need, pure and simple. The talent would just not be available.

Exactly this, ericsson struggle to get staff in athlone and Have to pay relocation grants and increased salaries because young people have no interest in living outside cities anymore

awec · 28-07-2020 11:38am

Fred Cryton wrote: »

Working from home is a fad guys. You're just in a little bubble now and don't see it. Employers will want you back chained to your office as before soon enough. I know this is hard to believe, but your employer doesn't trust you to give 100% attention to your job at home. And they're right not to let's be honest, aren't you reading Boards.ie right now.

Demand for office space may actually increase due to social distancing requirements and the end of "hot desking". Or at the very least it'll stay the same as maybe 20% of people manage to get away with working from home. But those people will regret it - out of sight and out of mind and all that.

I don't think you're really clued in to modern working practices Fred. This is not the first time you've shown ignorance to how the world works these days.

The days of people having to be sitting at a desk, with someone constantly watching over their shoulder and tracking when they enter and leave the building died long before covid even became a thing.

hello2020 · 28-07-2020 12:04pm

awec wrote: »

You really haven't a notion.

Google, Microsoft, Facebook etc are not competing for staff from Dublin vs Leitrim ffs. It's Dublin vs London vs Paris vs Stockholm etc etc.

If they stuck a big building in Leitrim and stuck a Google/Microsoft/Facebook logo on it they wouldn't get the staff they need, pure and simple. The talent would just not be available.

This is so true. Fancy campuses at cool locations is one big factor for attracting young talents from world over..

GT89 · 28-07-2020 12:12pm

They are taking us for a ride a large proportion of their staff are not idigenous Irish and not paying their fair share of tax. Why not offer tax incentives to Irish start ups in order to create Irish jobs for Irish people instead of relying on foreign companies who employ mostly non nationals. Considering they are not in any rush back now is the perfect time to start planning for life without them.

AlmightyCushion · 28-07-2020 12:18pm

GT89 wrote: »

They are taking us for a ride a large proportion of their staff are not idigenous Irish and not paying their fair share of tax. Why not offer tax incentives to Irish start ups in order to create Irish jobs for Irish people instead of relying on foreign companies who employ mostly non nationals. Considering they are not in any rush back now is the perfect time to start planning for life without them.

We already do. It's called enterprise Ireland, they offer loads of funding and grants for Irish companies.

greenfield21 · 28-07-2020 12:44pm

By investing in offshore tangible assets US companies are getting a reduced gilti rate.

Cordell · 28-07-2020 12:59pm

GT89 wrote: »

They are taking us for a ride a large proportion of their staff are not idigenous Irish and not paying their fair share of tax. Why not offer tax incentives to Irish start ups in order to create Irish jobs for Irish people instead of relying on foreign companies who employ mostly non nationals. Considering they are not in any rush back now is the perfect time to start planning for life without them.

Both staff and employers are paying their fair* share of taxes, furthermore they are spending a lot of that money in Ireland, helping the economy in general. So, what is the problem?

*fair means legal, otherwise how is it fair to tax a foreign individual the same as a native, giving that the foreign was educated on other country's expense and Ireland now reaps the benefits for free?

The only problem they create is the housing shortage which leads to high prices, apart from that its only benefits to have them here.

beauf · 28-07-2020 12:59pm

hello2020 wrote: »

This is so true. Fancy campuses at cool locations is one big factor for attracting young talents from world over..

For "some" of our non Irish staff . Living in the country side is what attracted them. When I asked why. Some replied "space" or quality of life. Some are coming from densely populated countries. A long distance in Ireland is a short distance to them.

Richard Hillman · 28-07-2020 1:17pm

I think all the big companies are essentially getting prepared for the working from home generation. Data Centres etc will still be needed but massive office blocks with space for a canteet and ping pong table could be behind us.

And when I say working from home, I mean working from their homeland. The programmers can be based in India, China, Eastern Europe and elsewhere, and they can just operate the shell company out if Ireland. Let's be honest, piss all of the employees for the large tech companies are actually Irish.

They'll be starting to question if there is even a need to be based in Ireland at all. If your workforce is remote, why do would they need base themselves in a country that would be deemed by high earners as a livable city? Ireland's selling point is an English speaking country and a good place to live if you are earning a lot of money, plus the tax laws. Basically all we will have left are the tax laws and there's nothing stopping somewhere like Lithuania or Slovakia competing with it, if everyone is based remotely.

The gig is up imo

Dyr · 28-07-2020 1:34pm

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

This is a friend of a friend story so could be bullshít or exaggerated but here it goes. Said friend of a friend has said that the company they work for will be allowing working from home from now on for all staff and they are evening looking to sell the building they are in and move to a smaller one.

Obviously, I can't see every company doing that but I imagine a few are certainly looking at the cost savings.

A lot of companies are realising that WFH is viable and it can save them a fortune. Office space is going to become a thing of the past in many sectors.

awec · 28-07-2020 1:35pm

Richard Hillman wrote: »

I think all the big companies are essentially getting prepared for the working from home generation. Data Centres etc will still be needed but massive office blocks with space for a canteet and ping pong table could be behind us.

And when I say working from home, I mean working from their homeland. The programmers can be based in India, China, Eastern Europe and elsewhere, and they can just operate the shell company out if Ireland. Let's be honest, piss all of the employees for the large tech companies are actually Irish.

They'll be starting to question if there is even a need to be based in Ireland at all. If your workforce is remote, why do would they need base themselves in a country that would be deemed by high earners as a livable city? Ireland's selling point is an English speaking country and a good place to live if you are earning a lot of money, plus the tax laws. Basically all we will have left are the tax laws and there's nothing stopping somewhere like Lithuania or Slovakia competing with it, if everyone is based remotely.

The gig is up imo

This post is fairly ignorant of reality.

The bit in bold, there was nothing stopping them doing this last year, or two years ago, or 10 years ago. Some folk have been beating this drum for years, "you can't rely on the tech companies for employment cause they'll just leave at any moment" etc etc. They've been here over 30 years in some cases, at some stage people will give up on this one.

Ireland provides numerous benefits. One is the tax and another is the English speaking. But there is also the fact it's an attractive place to live so not hard to get people to move here, it's got good local talent and it has a great time zone relative to the US.

(On a side note, these MNCs employ loads of Irish people).

statesaver · 28-07-2020 1:44pm

awec wrote: »

This post is fairly ignorant of reality.

The bit in bold, there was nothing stopping them doing this last year, or two years ago, or 10 years ago. Some folk have been beating this drum for years, "you can't rely on the tech companies for employment cause they'll just leave at any moment" etc etc. They've been here over 30 years in some cases, at some stage people will give up on this one.

Ireland provides numerous benefits. One is the tax and another is the English speaking. But there is also the fact it's an attractive place to live so not hard to get people to move here, it's got good local talent and it has a great time zone relative to the US.

Covid has begun to change all that. On the radio this morning they were on about Google not reopening fully until July 2021. Why have office space when employees are working from home, where ever home is.

endacl · 28-07-2020 1:48pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Ah, to be fair there is an element of showing off involved. Otherwise they'd have just built these places in Westmeath somewhere on the cheapest plot of land they could find, and it'd be a basic warehouse/office block.

Building mega-buildings and putting them in the most expensive areas is a bit of a gloaty move. At the same time, so is driving anything other than the most basic of basic cars. If you have the money, you may aswell spend it and keep jobs going.

Young Facebook and google staff ain’t coming here to work in Westmeath...

Cordell · 28-07-2020 1:54pm

statesaver wrote: »

Covid has begun to change all that. On the radio this morning they were on about Google not reopening fully until July 2021. Why have office space when employees are working from home, where ever home is.

Before the pandemic: why have employees in Ireland at all, when you could just have a shell here? Even better, why even have the shell here when you can have it somewhere in Panama?

Dyr · 28-07-2020 1:56pm

awec wrote: »

(On a side note, these MNCs employ loads of Irish people).

Some of them do, the ones who've been here a long time. I reckon if we ever saw statistics on Facebook and Amazon it might be eye opening

beauf · 28-07-2020 2:01pm

Cordell wrote: »

Before the pandemic: why have employees in Ireland at all, when you could just have a shell here? Even better, why even have the shell here when you can have it somewhere in Panama?

Not all outsourcing and remote working is successful.

dhaughton99 · 28-07-2020 2:06pm

I wonder how WeWork premises are fairing these days

techdiver · 28-07-2020 2:09pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Exactly this, ericsson struggle to get staff in athlone and Have to pay relocation grants and increased salaries because young people have no interest in living outside cities anymore

The problem is they don't offer high enough salaries. I live in the midlands and taking all into account the salaries on offer just don't complete enough for me to work there as opposed to Dublin.

We are talking 5 figure salary differences.

Add to this that many software companies permit some working from home (even prior to the pandemic) if Ericsson wants to attract staff they need to up their game. It's supply and demand the same as any other business. If the jobs market collapses employers are quick enough to cut salaries also.

Will the tech giants close buildings in the docks

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