Luas Finglas

Pete_Cavan · 25-07-2020 10:36pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

The R122 is less than 1 km east of the N2 junction, with a nice green field between the two. Perfect for a P&R. It would serve traffic from the M50, M1, and N2. Direct connection to the CC and Sandyford.

Directing large volumes of traffic onto the R122 and the roads between it and the M1 or M2 would be a disaster. I can't see many people making such a detour off the motorway and driving country roads to then board a tram. I'm not sure it would be any better than the Charlestown P&R. Once people are in their cars, you have to offer them something good to entice them out, the R122 isn't good enough.

Sam Russell · 25-07-2020 11:09pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Directing large volumes of traffic onto the R122 and the roads between it and the M1 or M2 would be a disaster. I can't see many people making such a detour off the motorway and driving country roads to then board a tram. I'm not sure it would be any better than the Charlestown P&R. Once people are in their cars, you have to offer them something good to entice them out, the R122 isn't good enough.

The R122 is used as the tram route to cross north of the M50, and so to the P&R, not the car access to the P&R. For motor cars to the P&R is accessed from the N2, or by some of the link roads for the M50.

Muahahaha · 25-07-2020 11:17pm

pete I think the problem is if they locate a park and ride right outside the front of Charlestown SC then anyone trying to access it off the M50 or N2 is going to face a traffic jam to get in to it in the mornings or out of it in the evenings. Therefore many people will instead just drive on to the city. Park and rides have to been seen as infrastructure that must be in place before the introduction of a congestion charge for the city centre. They also have to be quickly accessible and thats just not possible doing it inside the m50 at the shopping centre.

Better instead for the Luas to continue on past the shopping centre and terminate in a field that borders the eastern hard shoulder of the N2. People driving south from Ashbourne could drive straight in and in the evenings it would need an underpass for people driving north from the park and ride. The next furthest junction up the M2 is about five or six kims away which I think is too far to be running a track through what is basically empty fields.

All that aside I wonder how they might deal with St Margarets Road from the roundabout at Lidl up to the shopping centre itself. Access would have to maintained to get into Aldi, the Jamestown Industrial Park and the houses along that stretch. The 140 and 83 also use that route. Maybe they will go with two tram lines and a single one way car lane with buses being allowed to drive on the tram tracks.

CatInABox · 26-07-2020 9:58am

Looking at the map again, it really looks like they're just repurposing the existing car park at the corner of St Margaret's Road and Charlestown Place into the P&R.

Pete_Cavan · 26-07-2020 1:00pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

pete I think the problem is if they locate a park and ride right outside the front of Charlestown SC then anyone trying to access it off the M50 or N2 is going to face a traffic jam to get in to it in the mornings or out of it in the evenings. Therefore many people will instead just drive on to the city. Park and rides have to been seen as infrastructure that must be in place before the introduction of a congestion charge for the city centre. They also have to be quickly accessible and thats just not possible doing it inside the m50 at the shopping centre.

Better instead for the Luas to continue on past the shopping centre and terminate in a field that borders the eastern hard shoulder of the N2. People driving south from Ashbourne could drive straight in and in the evenings it would need an underpass for people driving north from the park and ride. The next furthest junction up the M2 is about five or six kims away which I think is too far to be running a track through what is basically empty fields.

I understand all of that. My point is that in the absence of another junction between the M2/M50 junction and M2J2, there is no easy access to a P&R. Cars will have to via M2/M50 junction and past Charlestown which is no advantage over just putting P&R at Charlestown or go via M2J2 and use country roads not suitable for high volumes of traffic. Both are more expensive than what is proposed for little or no benefit.

Ultimately the best solution for traffic originating from further out is to deal with it further out. Luas isn't a panacea which should be used to address every problem.

MJohnston · 26-07-2020 1:25pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

I understand all of that. My point is that in the absence of another junction between the M2/M50 junction and M2J2, there is no easy access to a P&R. Cars will have to via M2/M50 junction and past Charlestown which is no advantage over just putting P&R at Charlestown or go via M2J2 and use country roads not suitable for high volumes of traffic. Both are more expensive than what is proposed for little or no benefit.

Ultimately the best solution for traffic originating from further out is to deal with it further out. Luas isn't a panacea which should be used to address every problem.

To clarify, my submission will be to add a junction 1A to the M2 at Elm Road and provide P&R access that way.

If it doesn’t happen, it doesn’t happen, but there’s no point in not giving a constructive submission. I do think traffic at Charlestown SC will be disastrous.

Muahahaha · 26-07-2020 2:52pm

CatInABox wrote: »

Looking at the map again, it really looks like they're just repurposing the existing car park at the corner of St Margaret's Road and Charlestown Place into the P&R.

yeah its the car park in front of the shopping centre that they had always earmarked as the Luas terminus. I rented in the area for a few years and the owner of the apartment told me that when he bought it in 2007, the sales waffle from the estate agent was that the Luas would terminate in front of the shopping centre in two or three years and now was a good time to buy because prices would go up further once the Luas was running in the area. They even had brochures with mock ups showing the Luas in the area.

SeanW · 26-07-2020 5:32pm

I think if they bring people who drive inside the M50 ring beyond the end of the N2 to a "Park and Ride" in the middle of a general urban area, it's going to be a disaster. Either design a park and ride properly, (i.e. directly off the N2 avoiding city streets) or don't do it all.

gjim · 26-07-2020 8:53pm

MJohnston wrote: »

To clarify, my submission will be to add a junction 1A to the M2 at Elm Road and provide P&R access that way.

If it doesn’t happen, it doesn’t happen, but there’s no point in not giving a constructive submission. I do think traffic at Charlestown SC will be disastrous.

How would it work?

Won't any solution, in order to provide access from M2 southbound and to the M2 northbound require new motorway bridges or tunnels/underpasses?

That's without considering access from the rest of the M50 or for anyone just inside the M50.

A motorway bridge here and an underpass there and the next minute you're looking at spending more that the cost of the tram line itself.

Peregrine · 26-07-2020 9:35pm

The initial estimate for the cost of the Finglas line was €200m.

An extension north to Elm Road would cost around €80m (my estimate). Plus the cost of a new junction on the N2 and associated roads.

So a 50% increase in the cost of the line. Is it worth it?

MJohnston · 26-07-2020 9:42pm

gjim wrote: »

How would it work?

Won't any solution, in order to provide access from M2 southbound and to the M2 northbound require new motorway bridges or tunnels/underpasses?

That's without considering access from the rest of the M50 or for anyone just inside the M50.

A motorway bridge here and an underpass there and the next minute you're looking at spending more that the cost of the tram line itself.

There’s already northbound offslips and southbound onslips. There’s a high quality underpass. All that’s needed, M2-wise, is another set of on and off slips.

Anyone inside the M50 could still go to Charlestown SC as there would still be a stop and P&R there.

markpb · 26-07-2020 9:52pm

Does anyone think a P&R of any decent size is actually a good idea? This isn’t a high-capacity suburban train, it’s a tram which will be serving an area crying out for better public transport. I can’t imagine the trams will be trundling around empty. P&R at Carrickmines certainly made sense for Luas and will continue to do so for another few years until Cherrywood takes off but I doubt Finglas will be the same.

P&R Balally was, in hindsight, a crazy decision. It soaks up capacity and denies it to people living closer to the city centre. The only thing stopping it from being a complete omnishambles is the limited car park capacity and the trams starting short at Sandyford.

Pete_Cavan · 26-07-2020 11:14pm

The above posts are the point I was making before, to justify the cost of extending beyond the M50 you need lots of passengers but if the more capacity that eats up, the investment closer to the city is undermined. Like I said, Luas isn't a solution to every problem, some problems need to be addressed directly rather than just lumping it in with a Luas extension.

TheTomahawk · 27-07-2020 10:39am

CatInABox wrote: »

Looking at the map again, it really looks like they're just repurposing the existing car park at the corner of St Margaret's Road and Charlestown Place into the P&R.

My understanding is that Charlestown S/C only had temporary use of that surface car park for a number of years. That's long past. They still have use of it for now, but that car park will become the P&R. The brochure that was delivered today says a 600 space P&R, and that's about 600 spaces.

The issue, then, is getting those 600 cars from there back on to the M50 or elsewhere. They'll need to rejig something at the junction at the Toyota dealership. At the moment it's generally faster to drive a km or so out of your way to get onto the m50 faster, at that same junction . Dunno what they can do, though.

Lord Glentoran · 27-07-2020 10:42am

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

The above posts are the point I was making before, to justify the cost of extending beyond the M50 you need lots of passengers but if the more capacity that eats up, the investment closer to the city is undermined. Like I said, Luas isn't a solution to every problem, some problems need to be addressed directly rather than just lumping it in with a Luas extension.

The problem is that the powers that be have constantly jibbed at doing the job Properly since the core DART proposals were abandoned in a fit of insanity in the mid eighties. Now every time any Rail scheme above tram level gets proposed it gets long fingered again and again.

TheTomahawk · 27-07-2020 10:49am

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

to justify the cost of extending beyond the M50 you need lots of passengers

Charlestown S/C is 2km South of the main runway. So there's potential there to cross the bridge for R122, or to extend further along St. Margaret's Road, and continue in to the airport.

There is another bridge over the M50 between the R122 and the Ballymun exit (for access to the water tower) so the Luas could cross there, or could cross at Ballymun.

So perhaps a future stage of expansion... If it does run to the Airport, and Metro North goes ahead, then it would be a nice place for the two to meet up.

cgcsb · 27-07-2020 11:20am

TheTomahawk wrote: »

Charlestown S/C is 2km South of the main runway. So there's potential there to cross the bridge for R122, or to extend further along St. Margaret's Road, and continue in to the airport.

There is another bridge over the M50 between the R122 and the Ballymun exit (for access to the water tower) so the Luas could cross there, or could cross at Ballymun.

So perhaps a future stage of expansion... If it does run to the Airport, and Metro North goes ahead, then it would be a nice place for the two to meet up.

Expect this to be clown solution when metrolink is cancelled again. Media will like it too, after all it is just an airport rail link.

Peregrine · 27-07-2020 11:43am

TheTomahawk wrote: »

My understanding is that Charlestown S/C only had temporary use of that surface car park for a number of years. That's long past. They still have use of it for now, but that car park will become the P&R.

I had been meaning to look into this. It was a temporary car park that they kept applying for extensions for. But I couldn't find a recent extension. The last one I could find expired and I can't find permission for permanent use either. Maybe I just haven't looked hard enough. I'd be interested in seeing it if anyone has some spare time on their hands.

Pete_Cavan · 27-07-2020 1:41pm

There is also the opportunity with this to provide better cycling links in the area. Would be great if the bridge across the Tolka Valley accommodated cycle lanes and continue alongside the Luas to Wellmount Road. That would link west Finglas into the Royal Canal and Tolka Greenways. Cycle lanes over to the Phoenix Park could be provided later to create a good orbital cycle route linking multiple other facilities.

Peregrine · 27-07-2020 1:48pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

There is also the opportunity with this to provide better cycling links in the area. Would be great if the bridge across the Tolka Valley accommodated cycle lanes and continue alongside the Luas to Wellmount Road. That would link west Finglas into the Royal Canal and Tolka Greenways. Cycle lanes over to the Phoenix Park could be provided later to create a good orbital cycle route linking multiple other facilities.

There will be a walking and cycling route between Tolka Valley Road and Wellmount Road. They might just upgrade Tolka Valley Park and Mellowes Park.

MJohnston · 27-07-2020 2:16pm

markpb wrote: »

Does anyone think a P&R of any decent size is actually a good idea? This isn’t a high-capacity suburban train, it’s a tram which will be serving an area crying out for better public transport. I can’t imagine the trams will be trundling around empty. P&R at Carrickmines certainly made sense for Luas and will continue to do so for another few years until Cherrywood takes off but I doubt Finglas will be the same.

P&R Balally was, in hindsight, a crazy decision. It soaks up capacity and denies it to people living closer to the city centre. The only thing stopping it from being a complete omnishambles is the limited car park capacity and the trams starting short at Sandyford.

I genuinely don't think Balally and this would be comparable. There's not a tremendous amount of development potential along this proposed route (I always thought the Cappagh Road would be better routing for this reason); what housing that does exist in the area is much lower density than the Dundrum area; the existing route from Broombridge inwards is not extremely busy; there isn't much proposed development north of Charlestown.

I think you need to reframe what you're asking - I think a Luas running from Charlestown is going to be a major park and ride magnet, whether or not it's actually built to support that use case. It's going to attract commuters from Ballymun, Hollywoodrath, maybe even Blanchardstown, and then also from Ashbourne, Ratoath, and further afield.

Ballymun will probably be lucky enough to receive a bus connection to Charlestown if this materialises (I'm not able to check BusConnects plans right now but I'm sure there's an orbital route planned). But a lot of people from the other areas are going to drive.

I actually think the primary reason for this extension should be to act as a park and ride enabler.

Muahahaha · 27-07-2020 2:39pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

The above posts are the point I was making before, to justify the cost of extending beyond the M50 you need lots of passengers but if the more capacity that eats up, the investment closer to the city is undermined. Like I said, Luas isn't a solution to every problem, some problems need to be addressed directly rather than just lumping it in with a Luas extension.

Get your point about undermining capacity inside the city but would it happen immediately? Luas can carry 300 people every five or six minutes whereas buses only take 90. If the park and ride holds 600 cars then thats 2 trams full in the morning and two in the evening, of course the 600 people are not all leaving and departing at the same time so it is staggered. I would feel there will be enough capacity to serve the 600 passengers and the demand from Finglas to Broombridge. 140, 83 and 9 bus routes are also there too all going into the city from the area.

I think there is two options with two different outcomes- P&R at Charlestown SC fine, but that causes even more traffic in an already congested suburb. Problem then is if it takes 10 or 12 minutes of sitting in traffic to get in or out of the P&R then people just wont use it. P&Rs have to be seamless and convenient to encourage use. If the whole process of changing mode of travel takes 15 or 20 minutes then whats the point. You could have stayed in your car and been driving through Phibsboro by the time you've navigated a traffic jam, parked your car, walked to the tram stop and the tram departing from Charlestown.

It has to be remembered too that the Charlestown area has large industrial estates with constant traffic throughout the day. Charlestown is a national courier bub with UPS, Nightline/Parcel Motel, DPD are all operating their central warehouses in the area with hundreds of vans and trucks coming and going throughout the day- that is traffic that is here to stay. The area is also a training and testing hub for driving schools of large vehicles like buses and lorries and that slows things down considerably too. Add 600 cars into this already congested suburb and there will be chaos.

Other option is to build it the P&R now outside the M50. That makes it seamless and convenient for people coming off the N2 and it would get good use from day one. It also future proofs the area for further development, that part of the N2 is largely green fields.

I think ultimately we have to be looking at having park and rides outside the m50 at the M1,N2, N4, N7 and M11. Government cannot introduce a congestion charge until this infrastructure is in place. While the N2 corridor is probably the least urgent for a P&R it does have to be done at some stage so why not now. IMO if they go ahead with only a P&R at the shopping centre the traffic chaos will ensue, people will complain that it is neither fast nor convenient and we will end up re-visiting a P&R outside the M50 anyway within a few years of the Luas extension being completed.

Pete_Cavan · 27-07-2020 2:44pm

MJohnston wrote: »

I genuinely don't think Balally and this would be comparable. There's not a tremendous amount of development potential along this proposed route (I always thought the Cappagh Road would be better routing for this reason); what housing that does exist in the area is much lower density than the Dundrum area; the existing route from Broombridge inwards is not extremely busy; there isn't much proposed development north of Charlestown.

I think you need to reframe what you're asking - I think a Luas running from Charlestown is going to be a major park and ride magnet, whether or not it's actually built to support that use case. It's going to attract commuters from Ballymun, Hollywoodrath, maybe even Blanchardstown, and then also from Ashbourne, Ratoath, and further afield.

Ballymun will probably be lucky enough to receive a bus connection to Charlestown if this materialises (I'm not able to check BusConnects plans right now but I'm sure there's an orbital route planned). But a lot of people from the other areas are going to drive.

I actually think the primary reason for this extension should be to act as a park and ride enabler.

Ballymun is to be served by Metrolink before this Luas extension becomes operational. The Blanch area will have better access to the Maynooth DART services, again to be operational before this. The other towns you mentioned (including Hollywoodrath if it can be called a town) are better served by buses, ideally avoided the need for people to get in their cars at all. Some/all of the Dublin Industrial Estate is earmarked for residential development so Luas capacity should be planned around large commuter demand there and the lines general catchment area inside the M50. Planning to accommodate large numbers of people driving from dispersed locations to leave it in productive fields tarmac'd over is the complete opposite to sustainable development.

Pete_Cavan · 27-07-2020 2:58pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

Get your point about undermining capacity inside the city but would it happen immediately? Luas can carry 300 people every five or six minutes whereas buses only take 90. If the park and ride holds 600 cars then thats 2 trams full in the morning and two in the evening, of course the 600 people are not all leaving and departing at the same time so it is staggered. I would feel there will be enough capacity to serve the 600 passengers and the demand from Finglas to Broombridge. 140, 83 and 9 bus routes are also there too all going into the city from the area.

I think there is two options with two different outcomes- P&R at Charlestown SC fine, but that causes even more traffic in an already congested suburb. Problem then is if it takes 10 or 12 minutes of sitting in traffic to get in or out of the P&R then people just wont use it. P&Rs have to be seamless and convenient to encourage use. If the whole process of changing mode of travel takes 15 or 20 minutes then whats the point. You could have stayed in your car and been driving through Phibsboro by the time you've navigated a traffic jam, parked your car, walked to the tram stop and the tram departing from Charlestown.

It has to be remembered too that the Charlestown area has large industrial estates with constant traffic throughout the day. Charlestown is a national courier bub with UPS, Nightline/Parcel Motel, DPD are all operating their central warehouses in the area with hundreds of vans and trucks coming and going throughout the day- that is traffic that is here to stay. The area is also a training and testing hub for driving schools of large vehicles like buses and lorries and that slows things down considerably too. Add 600 cars into this already congested suburb and there will be chaos.

Other option is to build it the P&R now outside the M50. That makes it seamless and convenient for people coming off the N2 and it would get good use from day one. It also future proofs the area for further development, that part of the N2 is largely green fields.

I think ultimately we have to be looking at having park and rides outside the m50 at the M1,N2, N4, N7 and M11. Government cannot introduce a congestion charge until this infrastructure is in place. While the N2 corridor is probably the least urgent for a P&R it does have to be done at some stage so why not now. IMO if they go ahead with only a P&R at the shopping centre the traffic chaos will ensue, people will complain that it is neither fast nor convenient and we will end up re-visiting a P&R outside the M50 anyway within a few years of the Luas extension being completed.

We need to get over this idea that green fields are only housing estates yet to be built, the sprawl of Dublin has created so many problems, we need to severely limit it going forward. Like I said earlier, there is huge scope for residential development along this corridor, this should be prioritised over expansion beyond the M50. And why does the focus have to be on making things 'seamless and convenient' for people driving? Get the people of Ashbourne and Ratoath onto buses in their towns is a better strategy.

MJohnston · 27-07-2020 3:01pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Ballymun is to be served by Metrolink before this Luas extension becomes operational. The Blanch area will have better access to the Maynooth DART services, again to be operational before this. The other towns you mentioned (including Hollywoodrath if it can be called a town) are better served by buses, ideally avoided the need for people to get in their cars at all. Some/all of the Dublin Industrial Estate is earmarked for residential development so Luas capacity should be planned around large commuter demand there and the lines general catchment area inside the M50. Planning to accommodate large numbers of people driving from dispersed locations to leave it in productive fields tarmac'd over is the complete opposite to sustainable development.

There are lots of non-productive spaces in the area just north of the M50, so I don't think you'd need to remove productive fields.

Here would be my point - TFI, who will undoubtedly have studied the demand patterns with much more insight or detail than either of us could have, have concluded that a Park and Ride is warranted for this at Charlestown SC.

The catchment effect of putting a P&R here versus putting it 500m further north outside the M50 is seems extremely minimal, so I'm not sure our debate here is particularly necessary.

However, the congestion effect of putting a P&R here versus outside the M50 seems very high indeed.

That congestion effect won't change the catchment, but it will put quite a few drivers off of using the P&R at all. And I really doubt that this is an intentional gambit by TFI to discourage P&R use?

What it looks to me like is there's a cost-benefit analysis, and they've decided that the extra cost of moving the P&R outside the M50 doesn't bring enough benefit. I'll wait to see what their EPR report says before making my submission, but I'd rather they spend the extra money now and get it right, rather than skimp out and have an inevitable congestion problem.

orangerhyme · 27-07-2020 3:05pm

What do people think the impact the new luas line will have on Finglas?

I don't know Finglas very well but I know some parts are relatively deprived and high crime. West Finglas seems to be more deprived than East Finglas. Is the midpoint Finglas village?

The Luas has increased house prices in Cabra and has gentrified it a bit.

Is there available brownfield/Greenfield sites for further development?

If the Luas continued on to the airport, would that make it even more desirable for location of new offices and development?

MJohnston · 27-07-2020 3:18pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

We need to get over this idea that green fields are only housing estates yet to be built, the sprawl of Dublin has created so many problems, we need to severely limit it going forward. Like I said earlier, there is huge scope for residential development along this corridor

Hmmm, I can't reconcile the contradiction in the two statements I've highlighted here. Where along this new Luas corridor has huge scope for residential development that isn't also a green field?

Dublin Industrial Estate was already unlocked by the existing Luas extension, plus it'll benefit from the Maynooth DART upgrade and Royal Canal Greenway plans too.

Pete_Cavan · 27-07-2020 3:24pm

MJohnston wrote: »

The catchment effect of putting a P&R here versus putting it 500m further north outside the M50 is seems extremely minimal, so I'm not sure our debate here is particularly necessary.

Well they aren't going to put another motorway junction 500m before the M50 so that point is moot. It would have to be mid way between the existing junctions and obviously there will be the cost of extending the track out to there. And if TII don't want another motorway junction at all then the whole idea is out the window.

cgcsb · 27-07-2020 3:32pm

I would say the luas will certainly increase house prices in the area. At the moment Finglas is the cheapest place to buy a house inside the M50.

I'm not too concerned about the impact of this extension on the overall luas network because the service pattern will be much the same as present with just 4 additional stops on the end. The Cabra to City Centre section is not all that busy compared to the rest of the network. Adding spur lines (like Saggart) is my main concern. Sooner rather than later the central part of the network will need additional capacity. We already have impractically long trams so the only way more capacity is coming is more tracks in the City Centre.

Problem is there's no votes in disruptive big dig projects in the city centre and there's tonnes of votes in bringing a new service to a suburban area. Ireland's decision making process is hopelessly political, parochial and uneducated so it'll probably reach crush loading and there'll be some demand management put in place before new central capacity is added. If metrolink is ever built that'll take the heat off north-south luas journies but we also need a new East-West line, I would propose Ringsend to St James. (assuming we won't live to see an East-West DART line through the city centre).

Pete_Cavan · 27-07-2020 3:32pm

MJohnston wrote: »

Hmmm, I can't reconcile the contradiction in the two statements I've highlighted here. Where along this new Luas corridor has huge scope for residential development that isn't also a green field?

Dublin Industrial Estate was already unlocked by the existing Luas extension, plus it'll benefit from the Maynooth DART upgrade and Royal Canal Greenway plans too.

How many fields do you see inside the M50?

Regardless of the Dublin Industrial Estate being on the existing extension, if we are planning major residential development here it doesn't make sense to eat up Luas capacity before trams get there. Look at the problems on the Green line.

Luas Finglas

Comments