Is Ireland different?

mariaalice · 27-07-2020 10:45am #1

Is Ireland different in how politics, the government, the media, and unions interact?

Anyone watching the COVIDA 19 discussions, would be struck by how COVID is being used to 'get at' various government departments via issues that long preceded COVID 19, fair enough maybe, SF trying to shoehorn a point on to a discussion about COVID 19 in the hopes of landing a blow on the government they are in opposition, but it comes across as very weak during a pandemic.

The unions are doing it via endless calls for more details and when that is answered calls for even more details.

Does any other national broadcaster have an Industry and Employment Correspondent? and if they do, is repeating calls from some union or other for the government to do something headline news?

One example of trying to tack another issue on to COVID 19 would be the two different pay scale in teaching that came about after the downturn, an issue that long preceded COVID19.

The navel gazing is unbelivibal sometimes, possibly to do with being a small small wealthy country with little real issues?

So are we unique?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 27-07-2020 11:10am

We're kinda unique in that we don't give a **** about teachers and nurses and tell that their 'vocation' should be paryment enough.

If no one else goes through this its because they fund social services adequately fromthe start.

Eric Cartman · 27-07-2020 11:14am

the civil service and their unions have more power than the government in some departments.

Its why the HSE will never be fixed regardless of who is minister for health or how much money we throw at it.

Geuze · 27-07-2020 11:17am

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

We're kinda unique in that we don't give a **** about teachers and nurses and tell that their 'vocation' should be paryment enough.

If no one else goes through this its because they fund social services adequately fromthe start.

I don't understand your point.

Teachers in Ireland are well paid.

A typical teacher's pension is 700 per week.

I'm not as familiar with nurses wages, but they are well above UK rates.

Geuze · 27-07-2020 11:18am

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

If no one else goes through this its because they fund social services adequately fromthe start.

Note that Ireland over-spends on healthcare, relative to the age profile of our population.

Stark · 27-07-2020 11:19am

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

We're kinda unique in that we don't give a **** about teachers and nurses and tell that their 'vocation' should be paryment enough.

If no one else goes through this its because they fund social services adequately fromthe start.

We pay them much more than other countries pay them.

Eduard Khil · 27-07-2020 11:22am

Its a system of mutual begrudgary it's always someone else's fault and the effort made by any individual or party in question is more important than the aims or purpose of the task at hand. Any wrongdoing is always permittable so long as it serves the purpose of the perpetrators.

MrMusician18 · 27-07-2020 11:24am

The pay equality for teachers and how the unions bang on about how unfair it is always gives me a chuckle.

It was themselves that agreed to shaft their younger colleagues and now it's the government that's to blame?

Tired Gardener · 27-07-2020 11:28am

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

The people have spoken, three quarters of them don't want SF and their murdering/criminal legacy.

And yes Ireland is different we have a system which is proving resistant to polarisation which happened on either side of us (looks at UK & US)

That could be to do with a small population. A large population will have a sizeable number of nutjobs who dwell in the extremes to prop up a party that seeks to please them. A large population can mitigate such social divisions, their size allows them to take the blow in their stride and carry on as it will have a much bigger center, when the centre breaks and people push to the extremes, that is when we see all the bad stuff in history happen (Trump, Brexit, etc)

Ireland's low population keeps its politics in check from lurching too far from either centre left or centre right.

mariaalice · 27-07-2020 11:44am

Maybe it is a good thing and comes about because we have a cohesive society? we don't have the extremes, the thread is not about individual issues but culturally how they are presented in society.

The 24-hour news cycle could have something to do with.

It also excludes a lot of Irish society.

There are enough teacher bashing threads already by the way its not about that.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 27-07-2020 12:28pm

Geuze wrote: »

I don't understand your point.

Teachers in Ireland are well paid.

A typical teacher's pension is 700 per week.

I'm not as familiar with nurses wages, but they are well above UK rates.

Geuze wrote: »

Note that Ireland over-spends on healthcare, relative to the age profile of our population.

Stark wrote: »

We pay them much more than other countries pay them.

We don't even make the top 11 when it comes to Western Europe.
https://www.businessinsider.com/17-countries-where-teachers-can-earn-the-highest-starting-salary-2018-9?r=DE&IR=T#17-france-3142149-1

So, then - why is it that the attitudes to nurses and teachers is that they are over-paid whingers?

Chips Lovell · 27-07-2020 12:43pm

We're unique in the sense that every country is unique. But I don't think we're that much of an outlier. While unions here may be a little stronger than they are in the U.S., they're in no way as influential as they are in Spain and France for example.

There is a bit of a disconnect between the individual and the state, a tendency to see it as a "us" and "them" situation.. It's not the paranoia about "big government" that you'd see in the U.S., rather more cynicism or begrudgery about paying or paying more public services that you don't see in many other European countries.

Having said that, we have a lot going for us. Our love of wooly compromise means we have less of the viscous polarisation you'd see in other countries.

[Deleted User] · 27-07-2020 12:52pm

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

We don't even make the top 11 when it comes to Western Europe.
https://www.businessinsider.com/17-countries-where-teachers-can-earn-the-highest-starting-salary-2018-9?r=DE&IR=T#17-france-3142149-1

So, then - why is it that the attitudes to nurses and teachers is that they are over-paid whingers?

Ireland's not on this list. Look at this list - official EU 2016 teachers pay comparisons.

https://eacea.ec.europa.eu/national-policies/eurydice/sites/eurydice/files/teacher_and_school_head_salaries_2016_17.pdf

Page 13. Ireland very near the top on all indices for teachers pay. And very few countries get 2 / 3 months summer break like Ireland, where teachers can effectively work a summer job.

That's why there is so much hoo ha around Denmark's schools being open - their summer holidays are June 28th - Aug 2nd.

Similarly nurses are very well paid here, and our social welfare and pensions are very generous. Who isn't well paid generally speaking are people working for SMEs here.

But let's not let facts get in the way of the narrative.

[Deleted User] · 27-07-2020 12:57pm

Chips Lovell wrote: »

There is a bit of a disconnect between the individual and the state, a tendency to see it as a "us" and "them" situation.. It's not the paranoia about "big government" that you'd see in the U.S., rather more cynicism or begrudgery about paying or paying more public services that you don't see in many other European countries.

My theory on that is that we still subconsciously equate "the government" with "the English" and see it as some kind of victory when more welfare is paid out from "the magic money tree" when in actuality it's coming from our and our children's pockets. You see the same phenomenon in most social justice movements.

Government spending should be focused on helping people to help themselves - e.g. education grants etc. Not an open ended blank cheque to keep demanding more and more. Value for money is NEVER mentioned when spending plans are announced.

You can see this now with the COVID payments and business supports, the government is racking up debt at a ridiculous rate. It's truly frightening, yet there is practically no discussion on this, just endless reporting on COVID and whether or not the schools will open in August. Deep down people in the public sector - and RTE - and on welfare think they will be largely protected as they were after 2008. Don't count on it this time.

RTE are basically the public sector and don't care about the rest of us unprotected from the ravages of competition.

blanch152 · 27-07-2020 1:17pm

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

We're kinda unique in that we don't give a **** about teachers and nurses and tell that their 'vocation' should be paryment enough.

If no one else goes through this its because they fund social services adequately fromthe start.

How is that, when we have some of the most highly-paid teachers in Europe with the shortest working day?

mariaalice · 27-07-2020 1:34pm

blanch152 wrote: »

How is that, when we have some of the most highly-paid teachers in Europe with the shortest working day?

Is it too much to ask that this does not turn in to a teacher basing thread or a thread on how much they are paid?

The in-group aspect of it is an interesting point along with the dominate of the middle class and public services in discourses in the media about the economy or, almost any aspect of Irish society.

Geuze · 27-07-2020 1:41pm

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

So, then - why is it that the attitudes to nurses and teachers is that they are over-paid whingers?

I am pro-teachers, in general.

They do tend to moan a lot, though.

I do not think they are over-paid.

They are well paid, yes, and so they should be.

I think lecturers at IoT have a handier job, no dealing with 12-18 year olds, plus 70 days annual leave.

[Deleted User] · 27-07-2020 1:42pm

mariaalice wrote: »

Is it too much to ask that this does not turn in to a teacher basing thread or a thread on how much they are paid?

The in-group aspect of it is an interesting point along with the dominate of the middle class and public services in discourses in the media about the economy or, almost any aspect of Irish society.

The first reply on this thread was about teachers and how "awful" they have it. I agree, let's keep this on topic.

The fact that virtually no government groups or committees includes anyone from the SME sector in Ireland says it all.

I agree with the OP too that the idea of an Industry and Employment Correspondent is a bizarre one. It has a Soviet ring of "Industrial Production Spokesperson" - why not let them speak for themselves? There isn't an equivalent Public Sector Unions correspondent - their spokespeople are given substantial airtime.

Geuze · 27-07-2020 1:42pm

mariaalice wrote: »

Is it too much to ask that this does not turn in to a teacher basing thread or a thread on how much they are paid?

OK, I won't post again, thanks.

Working class heroes · 27-07-2020 1:50pm

Geuze wrote: »

I don't understand your point.

Teachers in Ireland are well paid.

A typical teacher's pension is 700 per week.

I'm not as familiar with nurses wages, but they are well above UK rates.

Really?

mariaalice · 27-07-2020 1:51pm

Geuze wrote: »

OK, I won't post again, thanks.

Of course post again your post is not teacher bashing, its a much border issue there is a huge tech industry here for example and huge multinationals that's one example.

On a related note, the intellectual quality of some of the union officials has really declined as well.

Girly Gal · 27-07-2020 1:53pm

Geuze wrote: »

I am pro-teachers, in general.

They do tend to moan a lot, though.

I do not think they are over-paid.

They are well paid, yes, and so they should be.

I think lecturers at IoT have a handier job, no dealing with 12-18 year olds, plus 70 days annual leave.

Teachers and lecturers are overpaid considering the hours and holidays they have. Also since the lockdown I know of teachers who didn't do a whole lot leading up to the summer holidays, just a few hours each week, yet when this is all over we'll hear a constant call for a pay rise for teachers because of how hard they worked during the lockdown. I know there are exceptions with some teachers who genuinely went above and beyond, but, the majority took it easy.

mariaalice · 27-07-2020 1:58pm

Girly Gal wrote: »

Teachers and lecturers are overpaid considering the hours and holidays they have. Also since the lockdown I know of teachers who didn't do a whole lot leading up to the summer holidays, just a few hours each week, yet when this is all over we'll hear a constant call for a pay rise for teachers because of how hard they worked during the lockdown. I know there are exceptions with some teachers who genuinely went above and beyond, but, the majority took it easy.

This is not a teacher-bashing thread or a thread about teachers.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 27-07-2020 2:13pm

blanch152 wrote: »

How is that, when we have some of the most highly-paid teachers in Europe with the shortest working day?

We don't - Luxembourg does, and this is shifting the goalposts a bit? They aren't paid by the hour. Qualified professionals tend not to be.

Deleted User wrote: »

Ireland's not on this list. Look at this list - official EU 2016 teachers pay comparisons.

https://eacea.ec.europa.eu/national-policies/eurydice/sites/eurydice/files/teacher_and_school_head_salaries_2016_17.pdf

Page 13. Ireland very near the top on all indices for teachers pay. And very few countries get 2 / 3 months summer break like Ireland, where teachers can effectively work a summer job.

That's why there is so much hoo ha around Denmark's schools being open - their summer holidays are June 28th - Aug 2nd.

Similarly nurses are very well paid here, and our social welfare and pensions are very generous. Who isn't well paid generally speaking are people working for SMEs here.

But let's not let facts get in the way of the narrative.

Document is crashing my phone! - which part are you specficilly refering to? I can only open the first page, which says "head-teachers salaries".

I was also refering to attirudes towards personnel - nurses as well as teachers when I said people "don't give a ****" and some of the responces here kind of prove my point.

[Deleted User] · 27-07-2020 2:15pm

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Shifting the goalposts a bit?

Document is crashing my phone! - which part are you specficilly refering to? I can only open the first page, which says "head-teachers salaries".

I was also refering to attirudes towards personnel - nurses as well as teachers when I said people "don't give a ****" and some of the responces here kind of proves my point.

We've all agreed this thread isn't about teachers. There are plenty of others if that's what you want to discuss.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 27-07-2020 2:17pm

Deleted User wrote: »

We've all agreed this thread isn't about teachers. There are plenty of others if that's what you want to discuss.

THen don't make a point specifci to teaches hours and we'll move on.

I also said nurses in the same post.

I chose both as examples - feel free to contribute your own.

mariaalice · 27-07-2020 2:19pm

Deleted User wrote: »

We've all agreed this thread isn't about teachers. There are plenty of others if that's what you want to discuss.

To be fair we have to accept that triviality, gossip, and watching what others have is probably more interesting to a lot of people that any big question about politics and Irish society.

looksee · 28-07-2020 10:09am

mariaalice wrote: »

Is Ireland different in how politics, the government, the media, and unions interact?

Anyone watching the COVIDA 19 discussions, would be struck by how COVID is being used to 'get at' various government departments via issues that long preceded COVID 19, fair enough maybe, SF trying to shoehorn a point on to a discussion about COVID 19 in the hopes of landing a blow on the government they are in opposition, but it comes across as very weak during a pandemic.

The unions are doing it via endless calls for more details and when that is answered calls for even more details.

Does any other national broadcaster have an Industry and Employment Correspondent? and if they do, is repeating calls from some union or other for the government to do something headline news?

One example of trying to tack another issue on to COVID 19 would be the two different pay scale in teaching that came about after the downturn, an issue that long preceded COVID19.

The navel gazing is unbelivibal sometimes, possibly to do with being a small small wealthy country with little real issues?

So are we unique?

How many people know anything about these questions (bolded) in other countries? Not a lot, I suspect. So how can a comparison be made?

And of those people who would have direct knowledge of other countries it seems likely, given that this is an Irish discussion site, that they would be looking at the questions from an Irish point of view.

I don't disagree with the thrust of the argument - it struck me that SF's response to the recent government proposals was very weak and basically - 'we didn't read what you said but it wasn't enough and it was too late and it was ill-considered'. So a 'nose out of joint' opposition party responded predictably to a proposal. That is what they are there for, and what they will be judged on in future.

Of course the Unions will bleat, that is also what they are there for. From my vague awareness of, say, French Unions they are rank amateurs.

There is a discussion to be had on either of these points, but to lump them together in an effort to demonstrate Ireland's 'uniqueness' does not make for good discussion. Are we unique? Yes/No. What else is there to say? Are we unique? well yes, this is the only country called ireland and there is no other country that would be exactly the same politically and geographically. But we are not unique in being unique, there is only one of every other country. So what is the obsession with being 'special' except to ourselves?

The OP's question is the navel-gazing, not the entirely routine, necessary and inevitable discussion of the day's news that goes on. That is not navel gazing, it is exactly what should happen to maintain an open and informed approach to how our country is run.

ancapailldorcha · 28-07-2020 10:22am

mariaalice wrote: »

This is not a teacher-bashing thread or a thread about teachers.

Mod: Use the report function instead of backseat moderating please.

Working class heroes · 28-07-2020 10:30am

Geuze wrote: »

I don't understand your point.

Teachers in Ireland are well paid.

A typical teacher's pension is 700 per week.

I'm not as familiar with nurses wages, but they are well above UK rates.

This post has been bugging me and I’m surprised no one has picked up on it.

I had a look and as far as I can see the maximum pension a teacher can receive is €625 per week. This is based on a finishing Salary of €65000 per annum with 40 years service. Now this is an excellent pension, the €700 state’s above as been “typical “ is far from correct.

Geuze · 28-07-2020 11:12am

Working class heroes wrote: »

This post has been bugging me and I’m surprised no one has picked up on it.

I had a look and as far as I can see the maximum pension a teacher can receive is €625 per week. This is based on a finishing Salary of €65000 per annum with 40 years service. Now this is an excellent pension, the €700 state’s above as been “typical “ is far from correct.

I have sent you two PMs, but I will also explain it here.

Here are the calculations, please note I assume 40 years service for a teacher hired pre-April 1995.

Please note I see the payslips of such a person, and please note that I have been interested in these topics for twenty years.

Final salary:

basic pay = 64,302
Degree allowance (Pass) = 1,842
H.Dip. allowance (Pass) = 591
Long Service Allowance = 2,324
Total so far = 69,059

Pension = half = 34,529, or 664 per week

Please note that many (not all) teachers would have a Post of Responsibility.

Let us take a teacher with a B-Post, that's an extra 3,769 (the payslip I see has an A-post)

So now the final salary is 72,828, with a pension of 36,414, or 700 per week.

Please note a teacher with an Honours degree and an Honours H.Dip. would get more.

Is Ireland different?

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