If Work From Home becomes a thing...

Kamu · 11-07-2020 09:28AM

You should fight that decision Brian, some emails, request who made the decision on what grounds, etc. My department, even though wfh is adding a lot more work to those who are in the office through extra admin, is being upscaled now.

This is a department that is fully paper based, no paper no service sort thing.

Blanco100 · 11-07-2020 10:02AM

I see Boris Johnson is starting to demand that commuters return to Cities, as businesses are suffering with folks working from home.

Jim2007 · 11-07-2020 10:41AM

Blanco100 wrote: »

I see Boris Johnson is starting to demand that commuters return to Cities, as businesses are suffering with folks working from home.

Well I guess you could always move to the UK, if you want to go back into an office.....

But the UK is a special case, it has a major problem because many of it jobs are low value added service jobs....

I don't see this that being expressed as an issue anywhere else in the EU. And here in Switzerland, it now seems that working for home is now the accepted model.

11-07-2020 10:48AM

We are always told that the concept of targets and results cannot be captured in the public sector as it is not profit driven.

So if wide scale WFH is implemented in the public sector how on earth can managers ensure people are actually working?!

Kamu · 11-07-2020 10:51AM

salonfire wrote: »

We are always told that the concept of targets and results cannot be captured in the public sector as it is not profit driven.

So if wide scale WFH is implemented in the public sector how on earth can managers ensure people are actually working?!

Don't know where you heard that, as I work in the public sector and I am given weekly, monthly, quarterly and annual targets to reach.

I've work in three different public departments, and each department had a target that had to be met by staff.

strandroad · 11-07-2020 10:55AM

salonfire wrote: »

We are always told that the concept of targets and results cannot be captured in the public sector as it is not profit driven.

So if wide scale WFH is implemented in the public sector how on earth can managers ensure people are actually working?!

Targets are not necessary profit related though? It could be numbers of applications processed or some selected community outcomes.

Blanco100 · 11-07-2020 11:22AM

Jim2007 wrote: »

Well I guess you could always move to the UK, if you want to go back into an office.....

But the UK is a special case, it has a major problem because many of it jobs are low value added service jobs....

I don't see this that being expressed as an issue anywhere else in the EU. And here in Switzerland, it now seems that working for home is now the accepted model.

Not looking to move back into office, quite happy not having to commute. id work from home forever. Just mentioning a headline in one of todays newspapers.

Blanco100 · 11-07-2020 11:22AM

Jim2007 wrote: »

Well I guess you could always move to the UK, if you want to go back into an office.....

But the UK is a special case, it has a major problem because many of it jobs are low value added service jobs....

I don't see this that being expressed as an issue anywhere else in the EU. And here in Switzerland, it now seems that working for home is now the accepted model.

Not looking to move back into office, quite happy not having to commute. id work from home forever. Just mentioning a headline in one of todays newspapers.

11-07-2020 03:28PM

BrianD3 wrote: »

Well, work from home certainly hasn't "become a thing" in my public sector workplace. I was ordered to get back to the office, I questioned why when government guidelines and HR policy was for people to WFH where possible. Told it wasn't possible and that I wasn't doing my job while I was WFH for the last few months. I know that I have been working just as well if not better than I did in the office pre Covid-19. But what's the point in arguing with some so called manager who has already seemingly made up his mind that you are a dosser.

I'm not the only "dosser" of course. Every other staff member in my department has gotten similar treatment/accusations. I was the last one to be targeted, the ordering in of more junior and shorter serving staff started a few weeks ago. Again I know that these people had being working very well from home, working many hours of unpaid overtime and doing great work.

I would be annoyed no matter what my personal circumstances were but what makes me fume is, I live with and am a family carer for a vulnerable person. First of all, if I bring Covid home, my relative is in serious danger. Secondly, care supports have been reduced due to Covid, e.g. no home help and HSE daycare centre is closed indefinitely. Thirdly, I have a 3.5 hour round trip to the office.

To sum up, I could manage the commute and the caring pre Covid, I can't now.

Good thing I have accumulated a large amount of F*ck You money, I never thought I'd have to deploy it though. So much for the public sector being family friendly and setting an example.

Anyone else experience similar? Great way to demotivate your staff.

I would be asking them to demonstrate to you how your work is not getting done (and you be prepared to show it is). I’d refuse to go back, they can’t sack you over it imo especially in public sector its very very difficult to get rid of someone.

The fact it’s public sector your boss probably won’t care but I was chatting to a solicitor and it came up in conversation and he was saying that any business bringing people back in when they can work from home would be on very shaky ground if there was an outbreak in the office.

lisasimpson · 12-07-2020 10:30AM

WFH will become more common and companies that try to fight it will lose out when they lose good staff. However it wont be 100%, norm.
I use to do the odd day from home before covid. I would like to make it a day or 2 a week in the furture. Im getting to the stage where im missing meeting my friends for lunch as we now work in different departments after mant years working for the company.

There are a number of advantages, less commuting costs, rural areas getting a boast cheaper housing, getting to help kids with homework, play time with kids, getting to go to their matches, time to get involved with community things therefore getting to know people in your local community.
Also more weekday footfall for local small businesses such as coffee shop, barbers, beauticans, personal trainers, lunchtime gym classes

Disadvantages
Its harder to manage teams at times. People dissapearing when meant to be on line, team members not communicating issues on time. I work in an environment where you have a number of deadlines to met throughout the day and lack of communication makes this furstrating. I also think some of this is down to the maturity of individuals
As i already said isolation is an issue. I misss meeting my friends. The development of work hubs in towns around the country where you can go rent a desk a desk space for a day or a week would be ideal in overcoming this

There will always be an office environment. Some people will want to go back full time for various reasons. Cities/larger urban areas will see some adjustment but nothing major. Young people in 20/30 will still move to the larger urban centers as thats where the social life is. People will move countries even for a few years for new experiences
Also offices will still be needed for training purposes. It hard trying to train newbies over shared computer sceens as depending on your personality type we all have different ways of learning/teaching. Also been in the office is the best way to get to know your team and suss out how suitable are they to WFH
Also if you work for a large multinational your missing out making connections in other teams. This makes it harder to change teams if you are looking to move within the organisation... i can definately see the idea of team days becoming the norm where even if you just work 1 or 2 days a week from home there will be certain days you will be expected in for meetings, team building etc. Even in our social lives we can see how people are already getting fed up with zoom calls so people will always want the personal face to face interactions

AndrewJRenko · 12-07-2020 10:59AM

salonfire wrote: »

So if wide scale WFH is implemented in the public sector how on earth can managers ensure people are actually working?!

By managing. That's what managers do - they manage, whether their staff are at home or in the office. They don't generally stand over their shoulders all day to see what they're doing. They manage.

BrianD3 wrote: »

Well, work from home certainly hasn't "become a thing" in my public sector workplace. I was ordered to get back to the office, I questioned why when government guidelines and HR policy was for people to WFH where possible. Told it wasn't possible and that I wasn't doing my job while I was WFH for the last few months. I know that I have been working just as well if not better than I did in the office pre Covid-19. But what's the point in arguing with some so called manager who has already seemingly made up his mind that you are a dosser.

I'm not the only "dosser" of course. Every other staff member in my department has gotten similar treatment/accusations. I was the last one to be targeted, the ordering in of more junior and shorter serving staff started a few weeks ago. Again I know that these people had being working very well from home, working many hours of unpaid overtime and doing great work.

I would be annoyed no matter what my personal circumstances were but what makes me fume is, I live with and am a family carer for a vulnerable person. First of all, if I bring Covid home, my relative is in serious danger. Secondly, care supports have been reduced due to Covid, e.g. no home help and HSE daycare centre is closed indefinitely. Thirdly, I have a 3.5 hour round trip to the office.

To sum up, I could manage the commute and the caring pre Covid, I can't now.

Good thing I have accumulated a large amount of F*ck You money, I never thought I'd have to deploy it though. So much for the public sector being family friendly and setting an example.

Anyone else experience similar? Great way to demotivate your staff.

You should definitely involve your union at this stage, and consider raising a formal grievance with the HR dept.

lisasimpson · 12-07-2020 01:25PM

For those who bought up the issue of basing yourself aboard if you had WFH there is a very good article in the business section of todays sunday independent

limnam · 12-07-2020 01:30PM

lisasimpson wrote: »

Disadvantages
Its harder to manage teams at times.

Generally good managers have no issues with this. It's the weaker micro types that struggle. But they most likely struggle in the office with other aspects of management.

lisasimpson wrote: »

Also if you work for a large multinational your missing out making connections in other teams. This makes it harder to change teams if you are looking to move within the organisation...

Some would argue it's easier. Especially for them want to be seen everywhere types. They're just more annoying now because they're in your inbox more.

Cyrus · 12-07-2020 06:37PM

limnam wrote: »

Generally good managers have no issues with this. It's the weaker micro types that struggle. But they most likely struggle in the office with other aspects of management.

Of course it’s harder to manage at times as the poster said , not all the time but sometimes

Team meetings work better face to face in my experience than over teams / zoom / whatever

Weak staff tend to do worse aswell being less likely to have Co workers to ask for help or guidance

There are pros and cons but to suggest remote working is always better is just nonsense

limnam · 12-07-2020 06:59PM

Cyrus wrote: »

Of course it’s harder to manage at times as the poster said , not all the time but sometimes

Team meetings work better face to face in my experience than over teams / zoom / whatever

Weak staff tend to do worse aswell being less likely to have Co workers to ask for help or guidance

There are pros and cons but to suggest remote working is always better is just nonsense

Depends I guess. What I've noticed is more people tend to be able to attend meetings when on zoom. Haven't noticed much difference in the effectiveness online or face to face. Probably depends on industry.

With all the communication tools available. Teams/Slack/phones etc. No one should be stuck not having someone to ask a questions to.

Cyrus · 12-07-2020 07:31PM

limnam wrote: »

Depends I guess. What I've noticed is more people tend to be able to attend meetings when on zoom. Haven't noticed much difference in the effectiveness online or face to face. Probably depends on industry.

With all the communication tools available. Teams/Slack/phones etc. No one should be stuck not having someone to ask a questions to.

They shouldn’t be stuck no but people are odd , you can give them all the tools but they won’t necessarily use them without prompting or guidance

lisasimpson · 12-07-2020 08:53PM

This is true. Some not all will not commuicate issues till the last minute. I these cases its often down to the attitude and maturity of the employeee no matter how good a manager/supervisor they have

Neames · 14-07-2020 01:34PM

A question for those that avail of Taxsaver with IrishRail.

So at the moment you get tax relief and save money but what if you only end up working in the office 2 or 3 days per week...will it be worth it then?...I believe the savings are very much based on someone working full time in the office.

PommieBast · 14-07-2020 02:27PM

Neames wrote: »

So at the moment you get tax relief and save money but what if you only end up working in the office 2 or 3 days per week...will it be worth it then?...I believe the savings are very much based on someone working full time in the office.

Not even close. When I was number-crunching the various ticket combinations for my city centre to Parkwest commute the calculated savings were marginal for a 5-day week.

fret_wimp2 · 14-07-2020 02:35PM

if it was a genuine tax saver it may still be worth it, but in its current form, a ticket holder does not get all the tax relief by a long shot.

Using a luas ticket 5 days a week for the year gave a net saving of about 200 euro IIRC. even remove 1 day a week and any returns diminish quickly.

mairtmairt · 15-07-2020 12:46PM

Has anyone returned to the office and if so what are the arrangements? My company are rolling out voluntarily return at begining of August with full return in Sept (but believe this will be phased ie 50% at beginning).

15-07-2020 12:53PM

Many are talking about a return to work of sorts in September with folk being encouraged to WFH if they can and if it suits them beyond that.

jrosen · 15-07-2020 12:58PM

mairtmairt wrote: »

Has anyone returned to the office and if so what are the arrangements? My company are rolling out voluntarily return at begining of August with full return in Sept (but believe this will be phased ie 50% at beginning).

My husband has. Staff are being offered the option but under no pressure to return. This will continue for the remainder of the year.
He said the office looks like a crime scene, yellow tape everywhere. They have removed all equip from certain desks and taped them off not for use. Not many have returned. No more than 2 allowed in the kitchen, bring your own mugs or use disposable. Hand sanitizer everywhere. Masks to be worn when moving around the office but not mandatory when at your desk.

15-07-2020 01:02PM

fret_wimp2 wrote: »

if it was a genuine tax saver it may still be worth it, but in its current form, a ticket holder does not get all the tax relief by a long shot.............

https://www.taxsaver.ie/Commuters/

Introduced by the Government in 1999, Taxsaver incentivises people to use public transport to and from work. It’s so simple!

Employers simply Register online, receive log in details and start purchasing monthly or annual tickets for their employees.

The cost is deducted directly from the employees Gross salary, and massive savings of between 28.5% and 52% can be made off the regular price, depending on ticket type and your tax band.

Hoe does the ticket holder not get all the tax relief by a long shot?

Vetch · 15-07-2020 01:23PM

Could anyone who was remote working before Covid say what insurance arrangements are in place please? e.g. what the employer covers and a suitable home insurance policy.

I'm expecting to be able to apply for remote working longer term, maybe using my own laptop with work providing some equipment so wondering if anyone has a similar set up.

PommieBast · 17-07-2020 11:47AM

Augeo wrote: »

The cost is deducted directly from the employees Gross salary, and massive savings of between 28.5% and 52% can be made off the regular price, depending on ticket type and your tax band.

Hoe does the ticket holder not get all the tax relief by a long shot?

Pre-Covid I had the all-in Bus/Rail/Luas TasxSaver, which including an admin fee was €205 of gross salary. My marginal rate of income tax is 52% so I got the ticket instead of about €100 nett salary. This is where the 52% "saving" comes from.

However last month I spent somewhere around €30 topping up my PAYG Leap card. I am €70 better off without Taxsaver.

QED.

Cyrus · 17-07-2020 12:00PM

PommieBast wrote: »

Pre-Covid I had the all-in Bus/Rail/Luas TasxSaver, which including an admin fee was €205 of gross salary. My marginal rate of income tax is 52% so I got the ticket instead of about €100 nett salary. This is where the 52% "saving" comes from.

However last month I spent somewhere around €30 topping up my PAYG Leap card. I am €70 better off without Taxsaver.

QED.

you dont get relief at 52% though its 44%

17-07-2020 12:07PM

PommieBast wrote: »

.............. My marginal rate of income tax is 52% .............

No it's not, PRSI and USC aren't income tax. ...........there are two income tax rates in Ireland........ 20% – this is known as the Standard Rate. The remainder of your income is taxed at 40% and known as the Higher Rate

PommieBast · 17-07-2020 12:35PM

Augeo wrote: »

No it's not, PRSI and USC aren't income tax. ...........there are two income tax rates in Ireland........ 20% – this is known as the Standard Rate. The remainder of your income is taxed at 40% and known as the Higher Rate

Since I am not an accountant I am applying the Duck Test to PRSI/USC

Biker79 · 21-07-2020 06:00PM

A client of the company I work for has opened up their offices, ending their pandemic WFH arrangements.

This is a high value services company, staffed with some capable people with a high turnover. Its run very well.

All of them have returned and there will be no post pandemic WFH options that werent there before the lockdown. Whats more, they are all happy with this arrangement. Their competitors in the same industry will be following suit.

It seems there are a lot of MDs out there that do not value WFH in the way that was expected.

If Work From Home becomes a thing...

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