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If Work From Home becomes a thing...

bilbot79

I'd be tempted to buy a little apartment in the Canaries and spend my winters there, in fact I'd probably

1/ Sell my Dublin gaff

2/ By a cheaper Irish gaff in the countryside

3/ Buy a place in the Canaries

4/ Buy another place somewhere in Europe, Hvar or somewhere like that

And just spend weeks and months in each place.

How would the rest of you exploit work from home if you had it permanently?

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Cyrus

limnam wrote: »

Depends I guess. What I've noticed is more people tend to be able to attend meetings when on zoom. Haven't noticed much difference in the effectiveness online or face to face. Probably depends on industry.

With all the communication tools available. Teams/Slack/phones etc. No one should be stuck not having someone to ask a questions to.

They shouldn’t be stuck no but people are odd , you can give them all the tools but they won’t necessarily use them without prompting or guidance

limnam

Cyrus wrote: »

Of course it’s harder to manage at times as the poster said , not all the time but sometimes

Team meetings work better face to face in my experience than over teams / zoom / whatever

Weak staff tend to do worse aswell being less likely to have Co workers to ask for help or guidance

There are pros and cons but to suggest remote working is always better is just nonsense

Depends I guess. What I've noticed is more people tend to be able to attend meetings when on zoom. Haven't noticed much difference in the effectiveness online or face to face. Probably depends on industry.

With all the communication tools available. Teams/Slack/phones etc. No one should be stuck not having someone to ask a questions to.

Cyrus

limnam wrote: »

Generally good managers have no issues with this. It's the weaker micro types that struggle. But they most likely struggle in the office with other aspects of management.

Of course it’s harder to manage at times as the poster said , not all the time but sometimes

Team meetings work better face to face in my experience than over teams / zoom / whatever

Weak staff tend to do worse aswell being less likely to have Co workers to ask for help or guidance

There are pros and cons but to suggest remote working is always better is just nonsense

limnam

lisasimpson wrote: »

Disadvantages
Its harder to manage teams at times.

Generally good managers have no issues with this. It's the weaker micro types that struggle. But they most likely struggle in the office with other aspects of management.

lisasimpson wrote: »

Also if you work for a large multinational your missing out making connections in other teams. This makes it harder to change teams if you are looking to move within the organisation...

Some would argue it's easier. Especially for them want to be seen everywhere types. They're just more annoying now because they're in your inbox more.

lisasimpson

For those who bought up the issue of basing yourself aboard if you had WFH there is a very good article in the business section of todays sunday independent

[Deleted User]

salonfire wrote: »

So if wide scale WFH is implemented in the public sector how on earth can managers ensure people are actually working?!

By managing. That's what managers do - they manage, whether their staff are at home or in the office. They don't generally stand over their shoulders all day to see what they're doing. They manage.

BrianD3 wrote: »

Well, work from home certainly hasn't "become a thing" in my public sector workplace. I was ordered to get back to the office, I questioned why when government guidelines and HR policy was for people to WFH where possible. Told it wasn't possible and that I wasn't doing my job while I was WFH for the last few months. I know that I have been working just as well if not better than I did in the office pre Covid-19. But what's the point in arguing with some so called manager who has already seemingly made up his mind that you are a dosser.

I'm not the only "dosser" of course. Every other staff member in my department has gotten similar treatment/accusations. I was the last one to be targeted, the ordering in of more junior and shorter serving staff started a few weeks ago. Again I know that these people had being working very well from home, working many hours of unpaid overtime and doing great work.

I would be annoyed no matter what my personal circumstances were but what makes me fume is, I live with and am a family carer for a vulnerable person. First of all, if I bring Covid home, my relative is in serious danger. Secondly, care supports have been reduced due to Covid, e.g. no home help and HSE daycare centre is closed indefinitely. Thirdly, I have a 3.5 hour round trip to the office.

To sum up, I could manage the commute and the caring pre Covid, I can't now.

Good thing I have accumulated a large amount of F*ck You money, I never thought I'd have to deploy it though. So much for the public sector being family friendly and setting an example.

Anyone else experience similar? Great way to demotivate your staff.

You should definitely involve your union at this stage, and consider raising a formal grievance with the HR dept.

lisasimpson

WFH will become more common and companies that try to fight it will lose out when they lose good staff. However it wont be 100%, norm.
I use to do the odd day from home before covid. I would like to make it a day or 2 a week in the furture. Im getting to the stage where im missing meeting my friends for lunch as we now work in different departments after mant years working for the company.

There are a number of advantages, less commuting costs, rural areas getting a boast cheaper housing, getting to help kids with homework, play time with kids, getting to go to their matches, time to get involved with community things therefore getting to know people in your local community.
Also more weekday footfall for local small businesses such as coffee shop, barbers, beauticans, personal trainers, lunchtime gym classes

Disadvantages
Its harder to manage teams at times. People dissapearing when meant to be on line, team members not communicating issues on time. I work in an environment where you have a number of deadlines to met throughout the day and lack of communication makes this furstrating. I also think some of this is down to the maturity of individuals
As i already said isolation is an issue. I misss meeting my friends. The development of work hubs in towns around the country where you can go rent a desk a desk space for a day or a week would be ideal in overcoming this

There will always be an office environment. Some people will want to go back full time for various reasons. Cities/larger urban areas will see some adjustment but nothing major. Young people in 20/30 will still move to the larger urban centers as thats where the social life is. People will move countries even for a few years for new experiences
Also offices will still be needed for training purposes. It hard trying to train newbies over shared computer sceens as depending on your personality type we all have different ways of learning/teaching. Also been in the office is the best way to get to know your team and suss out how suitable are they to WFH
Also if you work for a large multinational your missing out making connections in other teams. This makes it harder to change teams if you are looking to move within the organisation... i can definately see the idea of team days becoming the norm where even if you just work 1 or 2 days a week from home there will be certain days you will be expected in for meetings, team building etc. Even in our social lives we can see how people are already getting fed up with zoom calls so people will always want the personal face to face interactions

[Deleted User]

BrianD3 wrote: »

Well, work from home certainly hasn't "become a thing" in my public sector workplace. I was ordered to get back to the office, I questioned why when government guidelines and HR policy was for people to WFH where possible. Told it wasn't possible and that I wasn't doing my job while I was WFH for the last few months. I know that I have been working just as well if not better than I did in the office pre Covid-19. But what's the point in arguing with some so called manager who has already seemingly made up his mind that you are a dosser.

I'm not the only "dosser" of course. Every other staff member in my department has gotten similar treatment/accusations. I was the last one to be targeted, the ordering in of more junior and shorter serving staff started a few weeks ago. Again I know that these people had being working very well from home, working many hours of unpaid overtime and doing great work.

I would be annoyed no matter what my personal circumstances were but what makes me fume is, I live with and am a family carer for a vulnerable person. First of all, if I bring Covid home, my relative is in serious danger. Secondly, care supports have been reduced due to Covid, e.g. no home help and HSE daycare centre is closed indefinitely. Thirdly, I have a 3.5 hour round trip to the office.

To sum up, I could manage the commute and the caring pre Covid, I can't now.

Good thing I have accumulated a large amount of F*ck You money, I never thought I'd have to deploy it though. So much for the public sector being family friendly and setting an example.

Anyone else experience similar? Great way to demotivate your staff.

I would be asking them to demonstrate to you how your work is not getting done (and you be prepared to show it is). I’d refuse to go back, they can’t sack you over it imo especially in public sector its very very difficult to get rid of someone.

The fact it’s public sector your boss probably won’t care but I was chatting to a solicitor and it came up in conversation and he was saying that any business bringing people back in when they can work from home would be on very shaky ground if there was an outbreak in the office.

Blanco100

Jim2007 wrote: »

Well I guess you could always move to the UK, if you want to go back into an office.....

But the UK is a special case, it has a major problem because many of it jobs are low value added service jobs....

I don't see this that being expressed as an issue anywhere else in the EU. And here in Switzerland, it now seems that working for home is now the accepted model.

Not looking to move back into office, quite happy not having to commute. id work from home forever. Just mentioning a headline in one of todays newspapers.

Blanco100

Jim2007 wrote: »

Well I guess you could always move to the UK, if you want to go back into an office.....

But the UK is a special case, it has a major problem because many of it jobs are low value added service jobs....

I don't see this that being expressed as an issue anywhere else in the EU. And here in Switzerland, it now seems that working for home is now the accepted model.

Not looking to move back into office, quite happy not having to commute. id work from home forever. Just mentioning a headline in one of todays newspapers.

strandroad

salonfire wrote: »

We are always told that the concept of targets and results cannot be captured in the public sector as it is not profit driven.

So if wide scale WFH is implemented in the public sector how on earth can managers ensure people are actually working?!

Targets are not necessary profit related though? It could be numbers of applications processed or some selected community outcomes.

Kamu

salonfire wrote: »

We are always told that the concept of targets and results cannot be captured in the public sector as it is not profit driven.

So if wide scale WFH is implemented in the public sector how on earth can managers ensure people are actually working?!

Don't know where you heard that, as I work in the public sector and I am given weekly, monthly, quarterly and annual targets to reach.

I've work in three different public departments, and each department had a target that had to be met by staff.

[Deleted User]

We are always told that the concept of targets and results cannot be captured in the public sector as it is not profit driven.

So if wide scale WFH is implemented in the public sector how on earth can managers ensure people are actually working?!

Jim2007

Blanco100 wrote: »

I see Boris Johnson is starting to demand that commuters return to Cities, as businesses are suffering with folks working from home.

Well I guess you could always move to the UK, if you want to go back into an office.....

But the UK is a special case, it has a major problem because many of it jobs are low value added service jobs....

I don't see this that being expressed as an issue anywhere else in the EU. And here in Switzerland, it now seems that working for home is now the accepted model.

Blanco100

I see Boris Johnson is starting to demand that commuters return to Cities, as businesses are suffering with folks working from home.

Kamu

You should fight that decision Brian, some emails, request who made the decision on what grounds, etc. My department, even though wfh is adding a lot more work to those who are in the office through extra admin, is being upscaled now.

This is a department that is fully paper based, no paper no service sort thing.

Technocentral

Sorry to hear that, bizzare, I'm Public Sector too, just a few days a week in office for a few hours each day, it should be the same for every department, the virus is with us until a cure or vaccine, maybe a year or two who knows, only essential workers should be in at all never mind full-time.

BrianD3

Well, work from home certainly hasn't "become a thing" in my public sector workplace. I was ordered to get back to the office, I questioned why when government guidelines and HR policy was for people to WFH where possible. Told it wasn't possible and that I wasn't doing my job while I was WFH for the last few months. I know that I have been working just as well if not better than I did in the office pre Covid-19. But what's the point in arguing with some so called manager who has already seemingly made up his mind that you are a dosser.

I'm not the only "dosser" of course. Every other staff member in my department has gotten similar treatment/accusations. I was the last one to be targeted, the ordering in of more junior and shorter serving staff started a few weeks ago. Again I know that these people had being working very well from home, working many hours of unpaid overtime and doing great work.

I would be annoyed no matter what my personal circumstances were but what makes me fume is, I live with and am a family carer for a vulnerable person. First of all, if I bring Covid home, my relative is in serious danger. Secondly, care supports have been reduced due to Covid, e.g. no home help and HSE daycare centre is closed indefinitely. Thirdly, I have a 3.5 hour round trip to the office.

To sum up, I could manage the commute and the caring pre Covid, I can't now.

Good thing I have accumulated a large amount of F*ck You money, I never thought I'd have to deploy it though. So much for the public sector being family friendly and setting an example.

Anyone else experience similar? Great way to demotivate your staff.

fret_wimp2

Jaziel Unkempt Photographer wrote: »

As I said think what you want but it’s the norm among my family and friends/neighbours etc and it is not looked on in anyway whatsoever the way you are.

No problem.

You are not looking at this like many or most would, the grandparents love to have the grandkids and if they don’t you can be sure they would say it. My grandparents minded me, collected me from school when I started etc that’s just how it was and is still done for most people I know.

Also it’s not just that they like having the grandkids they can see the thousands of euro it’s saves their children in an expensive time of life and helps them have a more comfortable life financially into the future.

I spent most of the first 4 years of my life going around on the farm with my granddad (I was able to steer the tractor confidently before I started school), the shape of my arse was indented in the tractor I spent so long up there. I’d intend doing the same with a child of my own or a grandchild. Obviously it can’t be all day when more dangerous stuff is going on but just going around herding, doing bit s etc when them in the jeep or tractor work where they would happy sit for hours (and nowadays tractors have proper second seats etc so not like when I was a child sitting on a mudguard).

Those who do call on grandparents dont see it as an issue and others do. its an attitude thing.
Its similar with deposits for houses, some will take any money offered, some think their parents deserve to use the money to enjoy their retirement.

I agree with Cyrus on this.
My parents would mind the kids if i asked, but i also know that they are beyond tired after any weekend we call over, so I simply wont ask. They are too good to say no, but they done their time and they are now also not physically as capable as they were. Ill read between the lines and use my better judgement.

Noxx001 has some lovely memories of childhood with their grandparents, a beautiful thing to have, and a nice thing to want the kids to share in, as long as its tempered by good judgement to read between the lines and realize that parents hate saying no to their kids and grand kids, even if its in everyone's best interest

Mostly unfortunately its a financial decision, grandparents = free childcare, end of thought process.

[Deleted User]

JoeA3 wrote: »

Expecting your retired (approaching elderly) parents to be delighted to be full time carers for your offspring is beyond delusional. It's taking the fcuking piss tbh. They did their time with all that. A few hours here and there yes. Full time? No way, I wouldn't dream of asking. They may "offer" but to accept that offer as the norm is beyond the realms of taking them for granted imo.

As I said think what you want but it’s the norm among my family and friends/neighbours etc and it is not looked on in anyway whatsoever the way you are.

Cyrus wrote: »

I’ll be interested to see how much nox supports this grandparents doing full time childcare in 30 years time when his 2 or 3 kids have a few of their own

No problem.

salonfire wrote: »

Imagine the sense of responsibility placed on aging grandparents especially in the summer time trying to keep energetic young kids from exploring too far and getting hurt. Especially on farms and near busy roads.

You are not looking at this like many or most would, the grandparents love to have the grandkids and if they don’t you can be sure they would say it. My grandparents minded me, collected me from school when I started etc that’s just how it was and is still done for most people I know.

Also it’s not just that they like having the grandkids they can see the thousands of euro it’s saves their children in an expensive time of life and helps them have a more comfortable life financially into the future.

salonfire wrote: »

Nox won't be minding them, he'll be safely out of the way out on the farm tipping about.

It'll be the wife left with the grandchildren.

I spent most of the first 4 years of my life going around on the farm with my grandad (I was able to steer the tractor confidently before I started school), the shape of my arse was indented in the tractor I spent so long up there. I’d intend doing the same with a child of my own or a grandchild. Obviously it can’t be all day when more dangerous stuff is going on but just going around herding, doing bit s etc when them in the jeep or tractor work where they would happy sit for hours (and nowadays tractors have proper second seats etc so not like when I was a child sitting on a mudguard).

[Deleted User]

Cyrus wrote: »

I’ll be interested to see how much nox supports this grandparents doing full time childcare in 30 years time when his 2 or 3 kids have a few of their own

Nox won't be minding them, he'll be safely out of the way out on the farm tipping about.

It'll be the wife left with the grandchildren.

[Deleted User]

Nox, have you never heard the relief of parents having their children rared or knowing that they won't be having more children?

Eg if a close friend asks a woman if she plans any more children, "no way! ",or "three's enough! " is often the relieved response.

Then comes along the grandchildren to be dumped on them.

Imagine the sense of responsibility placed on aging grandparents especially in the summer time trying to keep energetic young kids from exploring too far and getting hurt. Especially on farms and near busy roads.

Cyrus

I’ll be interested to see how much nox supports this grandparents doing full time childcare in 30 years time when his 2 or 3 kids have a few of their own

JoeA3

Expecting your retired (approaching elderly) parents to be delighted to be full time carers for your offspring is beyond delusional. It's taking the fcuking piss tbh. They did their time with all that. A few hours here and there yes. Full time? No way, I wouldn't dream of asking. They may "offer" but to accept that offer as the norm is beyond the realms of taking them for granted imo.

Electric Sheep

Deleted User wrote: »

I doubt that's the case, id say there are far more grandparents who are doing it but would probably prefer not to be.

I agree, I am acquainted with a few of these. Worn out and fed up, but feel obliged to help out. Meanwhile the son or son in law spends the price of a weeks daycare in the pub every weekend.

[Deleted User]

mariaalice wrote: »

What a sweeping statement, in my opinion, asking grandparents to take on full time childcare of children is taking advantage even if the are willing do it, a few hours here and there or a day or two a week is different, even asking them to pick them up evey day from school is a big ask.

Grandparents providing help and support is one thing but full-time child care no.

Most grandparents ask before they are asked. In my family and close group of friends the majority of kids are minded full time or close to full time by grandparents (or shared among the two sets of grandparents) and I can guarantee you it is not seen by anyone as taking advantage the grandparents are over the moon to be doing it.

I know of one case with a relation where there was almost a falling out over it as the couple didn’t want the grandparents having to do the childcare but this highly offended the grandparents and to keep the peace they had to let the grandparents do the full time childcare.

Also how you could see full time pick ups from school as a big ask is beyond me, it’s an absolute ideal scenario to have grandparents do this as they see their grandkids for a few hours per day as they love to do and save a large amount of money for the parents. As I said I bet many grandparents with grandkids on the other side of the world would give anything to be doing childcare and pick ups and seeing their grandkids everyday.

[Deleted User]

Jaziel Unkempt Photographer wrote: »

Giving the impression of looking down on but jealous at the back of it all.

It’s not subsidising anyone, In most cares grandparents are over the moon to have be minding their grand children and spending time with them. I bet all the grandparents seeing their grandchildren on skype from Oz or elsewhere would give anything to have them living next door and be getting to spend time with them every day.

It’s how childcare was always done in my parents generation and it’s still how many still do it nowadays as why waste a load of money on childcare if it’s not necessary.

I doubt that's the case, id say there are far more grandparents who are doing it but would probably prefer not to be.

[Deleted User]

Jaziel Unkempt Photographer wrote: »

Giving the impression of looking down on but jealous at the back of it all.

It’s not subsidising anyone, In most cares grandparents are over the moon to have be minding their grand children and spending time with them. I bet all the grandparents seeing their grandchildren on skype from Oz or elsewhere would give anything to have them living next door and be getting to spend time with them every day.

It’s how childcare was always done in my parents generation and it’s still how many still do it nowadays as why waste a load of money on childcare if it’s not necessary.

What a sweeping statement, in my opinion, asking grandparents to take on full time childcare of children is taking advantage even if the are willing do it, a few hours here and there or a day or two a week is different, even asking them to pick them up evey day from school is a big ask.

Grandparents providing help and support is one thing but full-time child care no.

KyussB

Inside the Invasive, Secretive “Bossware” Tracking Workers
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2020/06/inside-invasive-secretive-bossware-tracking-workers

cloudatlas

Mr.S wrote: »

We did this before COVID

But in all seriousness, yes the gradual return to the office will tedious for smaller offices. I am sure, if cases remain low, that restrictions like mask wearing will be eased and 1-2m distances between desks will be removed.

A lot of places that have opened back up have had to lock down again. I don't think we are going back in there.

I need to renew my union membership on Monday as my workplace keeps on sending out emails explaining their financial situation and are manoeuvring into place to look at voluntary redundancy.