Dark - Netflix

Optimalprimerib · 12-07-2020 08:07AM

Sadly after season 2 episode 5 I think I am done with it. There is far too much filler and philisophical exposition without any great reward or saying anything really. Alot of the time, reveals are made to characters visually without the audience been shown through letters/photographs etc which contrives the "slow-burn" then for a snippet at the very end of the episode.

The story in the first season was interesting but the second season is weak in my opinion.

Homelander · 12-07-2020 08:40AM

That's interesting. Obviously, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I thought S2 was better than S1 as things started to come a bit more together in terms of the overall plot.

Interestingly, S1 is the "lowest" rated season on IMDB and Rotten Tomatoes, though it's still almost 9/10.

One thing I would dispute though is "filler", everything is important in the end, there is honestly almost zero filler in my opinion in the show. There is nothing left unexplained by the end of S3, and pretty much everything that has happened up until that point plays a critical role.

It's why I think it's one of the best TV shows ever made - the way everything is tied together, and wrapped up, is phenomenal and faultless.

They would have to have had the entire 3 seasons and story planned before they even made episode 1, this wasn't made up as they went along.

Mike Litoris · 12-07-2020 09:00AM

Optimalprimerib wrote: »

Sadly after season 2 episode 5 I think I am done with it. There is far too much filler and philisophical exposition without any great reward or saying anything really. Alot of the time, reveals are made to characters visually without the audience been shown through letters/photographs etc which contrives the "slow-burn" then for a snippet at the very end of the episode.

The story in the first season was interesting but the second season is weak in my opinion.

Stick with it. I didn't enjoy S02 anywhere near as much as 1 for much the same reasons. I felt a lot of the mystery and intrigue was replaced with more confusion but don't deny yourself season 3 and it's conclusion. Even the first episode of 3 will make up for things!

Cina · 12-07-2020 12:48PM

I must be the only one here who didn't like season three?

Personally I found the ending incredibly disappointing and unsatisfactory. For a show that spent three seasons being so convoluted and giving the impression it was some wonderfully woven and tight-knit plot, to get such a basic/simple/boring explanation for the event that essentially renedered all the characters we've seen over the last three seasons irrelevant just didn't work for me at all.

And season three in general was just a mess. The first two seasons were confusing but largely worked because there were 3 versions of each character, 3 timelines (well, mainly), and you knew it. Introducing another world and then other versions of characters only a few weeks/months apart from each other just made everything seem so damn all over the place to me.

So yeah, crap. First two seasons are still great, though.

Hrududu · 12-07-2020 01:53PM

Homelander wrote: »

One thing I would dispute though is "filler", everything is important in the end, there is honestly almost zero filler in my opinion in the show.

I felt like we seemed to spend a lot of scenes with Jonas and Martha just staring and crying at each other. But the real “filler” for me in S3 was having to spend time explaining everything to alt Martha. Endless scenes of her disbelief meanwhile we’re all “come on we’ve done all this already get on with it.”

Redsoxfan · 12-07-2020 05:04PM

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Just a quick question which maybe nobody has the answer...
from what we know mads was taken from 1986 and his body was dumped in 2019.
The ginger lad and Yasim's bodies are taken from 2019 and dumped in 1953.
With all three, they had the "burn" marks on their faces from whatever the electrical device that went around their head whilst in the "room". What was that device and what were those involved (obviously including Helge) trying to do?
It can't have been creating a time machine because we know that they were able to travel through time to dump the bodies.

Really enjoyed Dark overall but really can't see the point of the missing children (aside from Mikkel). Were they all taken by Noah and Helge for experiments? And how would they know if the experiments were successful or not etc?

freak scence · 12-07-2020 06:01PM

Redsoxfan wrote: »

Really enjoyed Dark overall but really can't see the point of the missing children (aside from Mikkel). Were they all taken by Noah and Helge for experiments? And how would they know if the experiments were successful or not etc?

they wouldn't have died and would have time traveled

Slydice · 12-07-2020 06:04PM

Finished! Great stuff! Can't believe they wrapped it so well!
Stuck the landing! Superhero landing for a show so complicated!

Overall: This show is a complicated and massive science fiction epic!
It's really well made! The story was complicated but really well thought out.
Mature audiences only for all kinds of reasons including intense graphic violence.

3.8: Writers being like.. No big deal, we got this! I'm being like: Woah! :eek:
Really

liked the everyone-coming-to-terms with what was happening montage at the end.

Wouldn't mind knowing

just where to look to see when Claudia came to the idea

but I think I'll be grand without a rewatch at least to give me some time to process!

Slydice · 12-07-2020 06:25PM

Just caught up with the thread. Many thanks given. Also..

ManOfMystery wrote: »

I think some rewatches will be warranted. I’m already seeing a lot of things on social media which show how well the writers planned all this out - such as way back
when Bartosz is in the lake in with the others and tells them the story of the lady in the dress at the bottom of it, all of them unaware it’s their own mother lying down there after she was killed by HER mother. Crazy stuff.

:eek:

Redsoxfan · 12-07-2020 06:27PM

freak scence wrote: »

they wouldn't have died and would have time traveled

Aye, but how would Noah have known?

All that fandango · 12-07-2020 06:30PM

Started giving this a go but as soon as I seen all the dead birds falling in the middle of the night early on in Season 1 that was the deal breaker for me.

freak scence · 12-07-2020 07:48PM

Redsoxfan wrote: »

Aye, but how would Noah have known?

they were conducting them

Irish_rat · 12-07-2020 09:25PM

Homelander wrote: »

Thinking of starting Twin Peaks now after watching Dark

Season 1 of Twin Peaks is excellent but only about 2/3 episodes of the second season are worth watching

Jofspring · 12-07-2020 10:35PM

Redsoxfan wrote: »

Aye, but how would Noah have known?

Because the bodies would have been gone meaning they time travelled. The kids never left the room and died in the devices that Noah and Helge built so they knew they hadn't travelled through time because their dead bodies were there in front of them.

Jofspring · 12-07-2020 10:37PM

All that fandango wrote: »

Started giving this a go but as soon as I seen all the dead birds falling in the middle of the night early on in Season 1 that was the deal breaker for me.

Really? Why? Can't see what would be off putting by that. It's given a fairly good explanation why this happens also.

All that fandango · 13-07-2020 12:18AM

Jofspring wrote:

Really? Why? Can't see what would be off putting by that. It's given a fairly good explanation why this happens also.

No reason other than I just thought it was a bit daft to be honest. Different strokes...

Uncharted · 13-07-2020 08:35AM

All that fandango wrote: »

Started giving this a go but as soon as I seen all the dead birds falling in the middle of the night early on in Season 1 that was the deal breaker for me.

Dead birds cant fly though.....

Homelander · 13-07-2020 11:47AM

I do see a lot of people asking things like "Why did this character do this", or "why didn't they do this instead".

There's actually a really simple answer for this tied into the premise of the show which becomes abundantly clear in S3.

Basically -

everything happens this way because it's how it always happened before as part of the infinite loop created in both worlds when Tannhaus destroyed the origin world and divided it into the two alt-worlds.

While S1 is presented as a linear development and we follow it that way, in S3 we learn it's actually an infinite, predetermined loop that cannot be changed by any of the characters who exist within the loop.

So, what we actually see in S1, is an infinite cycle that has happened forever, and was never linear as it came into instant being the moment Tannhaus destroyed origin world....and young Jonas, Stranger Jonas or other characters like Ulrich, were always entirely powerless to change anything about it.

In fact in most cases their actions inadvertently advance the loop, eg, Ulrich battering Helge, Stranger Jonas attempting to destroy the tunnel in 2019, and so on....all pre-determined actions to maintain the infinite loop, they just don't realise it.

So, everything - the past, the present, the future, the beginning and end, all the players at different points in time - all came into existence simultaneously and instantly in an infinite loop that cannot be broken from within.

Therefore to addres an earlier question, Noah has to keep building the experimental time machines in 1986 to eventually successfully send Helge back to 1953; likewise, he has to fail with Erik and Yassin so their bodies appear in 1953 and trap Ulrich there, accused of their murders. This all has to happen exactly like this because it has always happened this way to maintain the loop.

Basically without Claudia finding the loophole in S3, the alt-world would continue to cycle for eternity in the exact same way and never be broken, with all players repeatedly fulfulling their predetermined destiny while never realising they have no free will.

Homelander · 13-07-2020 12:03PM

ManOfMystery wrote: »

I think some rewatches will be warranted. I’m already seeing a lot of things on social media which show how well the writers planned all this out - such as way back
when Bartosz is in the lake in with the others and tells them the story of the lady in the dress at the bottom of it, all of them unaware it’s their own mother lying down there after she was killed by HER mother. Crazy stuff.

This one blew my mind in particular, though there are so many things of this nature in the show that you forget or miss...I had to watch some episodes a few times before certain things clicked.

For example, when I watched S3, I completely forgot about the scene at the tunnels in 1921 at the start of S2E1....which is actually

young Noah murdering his own father.....older Bartosz.

I actually watched that scene again after S3 and it carries even more haunting weight when you know the full story from their time in the past.

In general.....

so many grim, horrific lives and ends for so many of the characters who were nothing but desperately loyal to Jonas/Adam, including Noah himself, not to mention Hannah, etc.

There are so many more I can't recall right now, but the way everything is so tightly bound is just incredible.

It is nice though that

the Younger Jonas we've been following manages to destroy the loop without ever having turned into Adam or gone through the hell his older self has, or alt-Martha having gone through the similar, corrupted cycle that leads to Eva.

Also interesting that in the end,

this exact version of younger Jonas and this exact version of young alt-Martha have never actually met until that point....yet they still share an unexplained bond concreted by their cosmic link outside of time and space in the tunnel of light.

So Jonas and Martha, in every world and reality, were predestined to always be together and just before they disappear they both realise this, when Jonas repeats "We are perfect for each other. Never believe anything else." Even though this isn't "his" Martha, the universe clearly has shown that every Jonas and every Martha inevitably belong together

Very bittersweet. Whole show is just a masterpiece.

cdgalwegian · 16-07-2020 09:57AM

This is biblical.
And a sort of Greek mythology. Well in its use of symbols at least, with an apocalypse thrown in for good measure. Heady stuff.

The anticipation after season 2 was very high for this season, and towards the end of season 3 it was almost unbearable; the finale didn't fail to deliver. Fantastic.

Dramatically this has a burgeoning love story at its heart, yet underneath this is a story instigated by

the ‘Origin World’ Tannhaus, where he is a reworking of 'Frankenstein; or, The Modern Prometheus'. He tries to bring lost loves back to life through the science of the day, but in doing so unleashes a monster; the 'monster' he created though wasn't a creature, but a wormhole, which creates a subsequent infinite loop of tragedy

.
The love story, it turns out,

is the means by which the loop is perpetuated. As ever with the clever use of symmetry, escaping the loop, initiated by one person’s tragic motivations (Tannhaus), was initiated by the tragic motivations of another person (Claudia)

Incredibly cleverly conceived and executed tv drama.

Optimalprimerib · 17-07-2020 03:54AM

Mike Litoris wrote: »

Stick with it. I didn't enjoy S02 anywhere near as much as 1 for much the same reasons. I felt a lot of the mystery and intrigue was replaced with more confusion but don't deny yourself season 3 and it's conclusion. Even the first episode of 3 will make up for things!

I decided to keep going and the ending of season 2 was the biggest

oh for fcuk sake ending I have seen. Now we have to deal with that as well[\spoiler]

We will keep going but my opinion is that this is an incredibly well made, well acted, well structured devised and invented pile of ****e.

HalloweenJack · 17-07-2020 11:14AM

Finished this last night and am still struggling to figure out

how Claudia broke the chain. I was pretty distracted trying to keep track of who was related to who and how.

As someone else said, I jad trouble figuring things out in season 1. That seems like playschool stuff compared to season 3!

The ending was a bit cheesy (the whole perfect couple thing) but it was a nice message. I found it had a lot to say about how important relationships are and how our lives are so fragile and quick.

I accepted the time travelling and the jumps back and forth and how the 'original' characters responded naturally to their interactions with time travellers (I'm thinking of what happened with Ulrich and Helge, Katharina and her mother, Egon's wife). However, I found the alternatibe reality concept a bit trickier to grasp.

I still need to do a lot of reading about it because there's loads that I feel like I'm not getting. I'd recommend it. I'd also recommend Les Revenants to fans of this, though I found Dark to be far more complex.

cdgalwegian · 18-07-2020 08:14PM

HalloweenJack wrote: »

Finished this last night and am still struggling to figure out
how Claudia broke the chain. I was pretty distracted trying to keep track of who was related to who and how.

Here's a link with snappy explanations from the official Dark website; spoilers within , obviously.

https://darknetflix.io/en/event-timeline/golden-time-travel-sphere

Slide 3 and 5 are what you want; Claudia'a sphere, and Adam's sphere.

I still need to do a lot of reading about it because there's loads that I feel like I'm not getting.

It demands a lot of attention. I re-watched season 1 before season 2, and re-watched 1 and 2 before season 3. Ya have to be a proper swot to get proper benefit from it.

ManOfMystery · 21-07-2020 12:20PM

Just like to give one more shout out to whoever was in charge of casting. Often in shows which show younger/older versions of the same character, physical similarities aren't focused on very much (strangely) other than perhaps the same hair colour, or a particular disfigurement, etc.

Dark is really the first show I've seen where the older and younger versions of the characters really look believable, almost as if the actors playing them could be related.

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pixelburp · 21-07-2020 12:30PM

It has been phenomenally good casting, a small but significant aspect in selling the whole drama. Not to mention making it a tiny bit easier to keep track of the time-travel complexity; that looking at the younger/older version of someone and immediately recognising who they're meant to be...

ManOfMystery · 21-07-2020 04:14PM

pixelburp wrote: »

It has been phenomenally good casting, a small but significant aspect in selling the whole drama. Not to mention making it a tiny bit easier to keep track of the time-travel complexity; that looking at the younger/older version of someone and immediately recognising who they're meant to be...

Good point! And the great thing is, they managed to cast the physicality without sacrificing acting ability. There weren't really any weak actors in the entire show IMO, they all delivered.

pavb2 · 21-07-2020 04:24PM

I started this last week and did enjoy it,

sometimes especially season 3 i couldn't tell which version of the person was there or what time period but just went with it. I do have a few questions:

Why were Adam and Eva at odds presumably they were from different worlds but what were they both trying to achieve
Was Noah, Hanno what was he trying to achieve and why did he and Helge kidnapp and kill the children.
So did Mikkel, Charlotte and Ullrick live in the origin world? Who didn't exist in the origin world?
The policeman's who's brother went missing's arc didn't complete also what happened to Claudia's mum and Agnes? and Barthosz.
Did Boris/Tideman stay in prison?
Who was Regina's father and why did Tronte have to kill her
Who was Silja I couldn't work that out sometimes I thought she was Martha
Which version of Jonas was shot as I thought apart from the lake scene there was only one version of the younger him
The three people Martha's son what was their mission why did they kill people
I thought a character we'd seen before should have been at the end instead of just introducing Marek as Charlottes father.
Why did they have to use the cave so often if they had time machines

wyrn · 21-07-2020 05:49PM

I have to say, I did enjoy season 3. There were a few too many intense staring moments but overall I thought it was an excellent ending.

I loved how circular it all was - it began with

H.G. Tannhaus and ended with him narrating

. A fitting ending. I also loved how this mirrored

in his love for his son (which caused him to create time travel) to Claudia's love for her daughter (which caused her to end time travel)

. I also think that

Tannhaus's son was Marth in some form and his DIL was Jonas. I think Martha recognised herself in him

The one thing I didn't really pick up until that final scene was

how many families were never to be because they never met. All that time travel caused people to meet and then created those 4 intertwined families

. It also goes to show that

Hannah was nice without Ulrich

I really loved how

instead of 1 world, we got two (at first in season 3) and that it was light / dark or adam / eve paths with the 2 mirrored worlds. But then Alexis Matteo BAM! we get a 3rd world and it's the triquetra! It means that the mirror worlds are fake. I was so pleased that the badass Claudia figured it out and just got on with it. It was great to see how the characters ended up like they did (Adam, Noah, Jonas murdering Martha) and then you can empathise why they were that way

Claudia was by far my favourite character. I loved her in the 80's being the boss of a nuclear power plant. I'd honestly watch a spin off show of her doing just that.

I echo what every one else has been saying about casting. It was so spot on. I actually though middle aged and old Ulrich were the same person!

Finally, well played showrunners with the joke of

Woller and his mysterious injuries

wyrn · 21-07-2020 06:13PM

I'll give this a bash. I'll probably make a few mistakes because I'm going from memory.

pavb2 wrote: »

I started this last week and did enjoy it,
sometimes especially season 3 i couldn't tell which version of the person was there or what time period but just went with it. I do have a few questions:

Why were Adam and Eva at odds presumably they were from different worlds but what were they both trying to achieve

- Adam wanted to break the loop, Eva wanted to preserve it (because she had a child)

Was Noah, Hanno what was he trying to achieve and why did he and Helge kidnapp and kill the children.
- Noah was born Hanno. He kidnapped the kids to create a time travel machine

So did Mikkel, Charlotte and Ullrick live in the origin world? Who didn't exist in the origin world?
- No. they never existed. Ulrich was never born because The Unnamed man (the trio) never went back in time to sleep with Hanno/Noah's sister Agnes Nielson and Tronte (Ulrich's dad) was never born. No Ulrich, no Mikkel, Martha or Magnus. No Charlotte because of that weird loop thingy.

The policeman's who's brother went missing'sarc didn't complete also what happened to Claudia's mum and Agnes? and Barthosz.
- Agnes went back in time, she slept with one of the unnamed trio and had Tronte (Ulrich's dad). Ulrich's brother was found in season 1, episode 1 (and again in the alt world). Claudia's ma, left Egon because she wasn't into him, wasn't happy with his affair and his drinking. Barthosz also time travelled. He went back in time, had a family and then was killed by his son Hanno/Noah - which is why he said "it is fitting it should be you".

Did Boris/Tideman stay in prison?
- No, when he was a teenager he came across Regina tied up in the forest. So no Ulrich, she wasn't tied up there, so he presumably kept running and never lived in Winden.

Who was Regina's father and why did Tronte have to kill her
- Regina's dad was Helge's dad (the guy in the wheelchair), the guy who set up the nuclear power plant Bernd Doppler. It was always hinted that it was Tronte, but it wasn't. You see the family photo of them in the final scene, Claudia, Bernd and Regina. He had to kill her so Claudia would move on and help break the loop.

Who was Silja I couldn't work that out sometimes I thought she was Martha
- Silja is Jonas's half sister that Hannah conceived with Egon. She then grows up in the future and then goes back in time to marry Bartoz. She's the mother of Hanno (Noah) and Agnes (Nielson)

Which version of Jonas was shot as I thought apart from the lake scene there was only one version of the younger him
So older alt(nerative world) Martha figured out a way to jump into the other world). So she splits it. In one, she goes into the room and rescues Jonas (only to shot him later) and in the other Bartoz stops her from going into the house and Jonas hides in the basement (where he becomes Adam)

The three people Martha's son what was their mission why did they kill people
They went back in time to ensure stuff happened. They blackmailed the dude into granting the licence for the nuclear plant. They overloaded the circuits (or whatever) to start the anomaly happen in the power plant. They go back in time to sleep with Agnes to ensure Tronte (Ulrich's dad) is born. Not sure why they killed blind Tannhaus but presumably it's to stop HG being born. Loads of stuff like that.

I thought a character we'd seen before should have been at the end instead of just introducing Marek as Charlottes father.
- That was a different Charlotte. The original Charlotte got her name from when the baby was brought to HG Tannhaus when his family was tragically killed.

Why did they have to use the cave so often if they had time machines
-It depended on when in the loop they were. So some characters had access to it and others didn't.

chicorytip · 21-07-2020 11:00PM

I was expecting the actors to be speaking in German with subtitles displayed in English. The Netflix(Ireland) version has them speaking English with badly dubbed American accents making it completely unwatchable for me. Is there some setting in the menu that allows you to alter this? I presume the original script is in German. The movement of the actors lips is completely out of synch with the soundtrack.

Dark - Netflix

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