Self taught developer with conversion IS Msc

DonnieCorko · 12-07-2020 2:35pm #1

Hey!

I am wondering about gaining junior roles in development in Ireland and how difficult they are to get. My background is I have an undergraduate humanities degree and a MSc in a conversion IT course but that's focused more on high level IT topics. Tech skills from this course really is only SQL and not a whole lot. Have good academic results which shows dedication i suppose.

Started work in IT company almost a year ago. Worked for three months as manual QA so have exp with JIRA, HP ALM, scrum etc but no automation exp.

Then got moved to an associate developer role although I had zero experience in development. Essentially they wanted someone to go to a client site as a free resource for the client to increase their count in the client and as I did well in my QA job they sent me as I had a somewhat good rep from my QA work. This was a chance for me to study in Dev for three months. At the end I built an application using React aswell as AWS (s3, lambda and another Aws service for processing images). The AWS stuff I created through a tutorial basically so I wouldn't say I'm very competent at it but got it working when there was a few issues. I was outside of the Dev environment reporting only to my manager and had pretty much 100% freedom ie very little checking over to make sure I was doing what I was meant to etc but I still have it 100% effort and studied on the weekends etc. The pandemic made this much easier to do but I was and am totally committed to studying code on my off time (if it leads to me securing a Dev role, otherwise I would switch to getting BA certs and upskilling here as this is where my educational background places me).

I think I am fairly proficient at React for someone who's learning really from scratch for only two months full time (first month was html,CSS, js). I have used class components, hooks, conditional rendering, lifecycle methods, routes, axios, bootstrap, semantic ui, npm, props, destructing etc and have employed all of these in a budget app I built, as well the application above.

Currently learning node js, ejs, mongo dB which all seem fairly straight forward, albeit it's a net ninja crash course. Also working my way throug Stephen griders react redux course and I'm not finding redux particularly difficult either although I'm not sure if this is a waste of time because of hooks(but could be relevant if I get an angular based role that uses redux). I really like learning to code and spend weekends etc studying it, outside of my work hours that were spent studying it.

Ive just been moved to a BA role with my company for the next five months. However, I really like coding and would like to move to a development role after this. My company mostly seals with c# and .net.

Ideally after this role I would like to get a development role within my company but like I said they don't use react/node really, it was just this specific client who does. My manager said I done very well and keep studying react (I suspect he thinks that maybe the client will be looking for a react Dev in near future from us but also I can't imagine they will want a jr).

Anyway I will try to get a development role within my company afterwards but I'm considering other options if I can't. My fear is that I may get a Dev role after my current one but as I will have exp in BA and QA they may try move me later to a BA or QA role dependent on their needs. This will leave me lacking solid exp in one area to progress further in terms of knowledge and salary.

I have spoken to other grads in my company who started at same time as me and are working as junior .net developers now and it seems my knowledge now (framework, APIs, Aws) is greater than when my company offered them the junior Dev role (they came in first as general consultant and this was the first role they were given). They do have CS degrees from good Irish uni's but said they choose more businees modules so they may not be great (my assumption) on their more abstract stuff like algorithms and data structures (I have zero knowledge of these).

I have read some other comments here from Devs who said they would choose someone with very little Dev exp from college but a cs degree than someone like myself who has more Dev exp but not a real cs degree where they learnt how cs work etc. Fyi I'm also 30.

So based upon this info, I have a few questions.

1) what is the likelihood that I can get a jr Dev role if I looked currently

2) what is the likelihood that I can get a jr Dev role if I looked in five months time when my current role ends (if I wasn't being given a jr Dev role)

3) is my level of knowledge good enough for a jr Dev role?

4) will not knowing algos etc hold me back later in my career if I become a Dev?

5) will my QA, BA , self learning journey increase my chance of getting a role?

6) apparently react is hot right now but I'm finding very little react roles available, seems to be far more angular jobs available. Is this reality? I'd ideally like a react role as I really like it.

7) will my mixed bag of experience affect my growth/ability to move company in the future. I'm unsure if it's a positive or negative thing.

My plan for the next five months is to to back and get a better handle of js. As the end goal was to build a react application I feel like I have a gap on some fundamentals. Then continue with the grider course. As I said I have a react image upload app with Aws backend (unsure of whether to put this in a profile as a lot of the Aws stuff is lifted from a tutorial), a react budget app, a js budget app. I will add to this with a MERN and maybe use aws for the backend of this.

Any advice is appreciated and apologies for the rambling messy post!!

counterpointaud · 12-07-2020 8:44pm

DonnieCorko wrote: »

Hey!

1) what is the likelihood that I can get a jr Dev role if I looked currently

2) what is the likelihood that I can get a jr Dev role if I looked in five months time when my current role ends (if I wasn't being given a jr Dev role)

3) is my level of knowledge good enough for a jr Dev role?

4) will not knowing algos etc hold me back later in my career if I become a Dev?

5) will my QA, BA , self learning journey increase my chance of getting a role?

6) apparently react is hot right now but I'm finding very little react roles available, seems to be far more angular jobs available. Is this reality? I'd ideally like a react role as I really like it.

7) will my mixed bag of experience affect my growth/ability to move company in the future. I'm unsure if it's a positive or negative thing.

1) Chances are good, your skillset is in demand, but there is a bit of a scarcity of people hiring Juniors right now, so start soon as it might take a while

2) See 1)

3) Yes IMO, in fact I wouldn't be afraid applying to some "mid-level" roles if they suited

4) Possible, depending on where you want to work, that stuff can always be picked up along the way though

5) It all helps, yes

6) They are definitely out there, keep looking. Not sure why Angular is so popular in Dublin

7) It all basically fits broadly into "full-stack web developer", right? If you want something like that, I think you have a good mix of exposure to different tech.

My advice is to get on a team with some good devs using the tech you like, who have a culture of code-review and mentorship. Be like a sponge for a couple of years and you will have a much easier time for your next job-change.

DonnieCorko · 12-07-2020 9:45pm

Thanks for the reply!

I am surprised that you believe I could apply for a jr-mid role. Im not sure if I overstated my skills tbh.

For example, I understand all the things I said and have used them but only have 2/3 projects, all of which are fairly simple. Maybe I am overestimating how much a junior needs?

Is a portfolio neccessary do you believe? Because I do have the two budget apps and the react upload image app but do not have a portfolio website built.

I was also considering recording a video of me demoing the apps and hosting it on s3 with authentication so that potential companies could view it. Ive already done this before so it shouldnt be too difficult.

Can I ask are you a developer?

counterpointaud · 12-07-2020 10:37pm

OK, maybe I misread, was it 1 year with 3 months manual QA and the rest dev work, or just 3 months QA and 3 months dev work?

Was the AWS / React app a production application with real users, or an internal prototype or something.

Probably ~year working on production code is better to go for the more mid-level stuff, but doesn't mean you can't try if you feel you are quick learner. Depends what you want.

I am a developer, yes. I jumped to a mid-level position after around ~13 months in a pretty generalist integration team that I wasn't enjoying. Did not have much production experience with the tech I was moving to, but I preferred it, so jumped and hit the ground running.

Wasn't always easy if I'm honest, but glad I did now.

DonnieCorko · 12-07-2020 10:59pm

counterpointaud wrote: »

OK, maybe I misread, was it 1 year with 3 months manual QA and the rest dev work, or just 3 months QA and 3 months dev work?

Was the AWS / React app a production application with real users, or an internal prototype or something.

Probably ~year working on production code is better to go for the more mid-level stuff, but doesn't mean you can't try if you feel you are quick learner. Depends what you want.

I am a developer, yes. I jumped to a mid-level position after around ~13 months in a pretty generalist integration team that I wasn't enjoying. Did not have much production experience with the tech I was moving to, but I preferred it, so jumped and hit the ground running.

Wasn't always easy if I'm honest, but glad I did now.

Sorry maybe I wasnt clear. Total time with the company is 10 months. 4 months in QA, 3ish months learning code officially, another one month before that learning code, and two months before my QA role waiting for a role.

Appliciation was a prototype. Basically the user inputted their info into the react frontend, uploaded a document, and AWS checked if the info the user entered was contained within that document.

counterpointaud · 12-07-2020 11:25pm

DonnieCorko wrote: »

Appliciation was a prototype. Basically the user inputted their info into the react frontend, uploaded a document, and AWS checked if the info the user entered was contained within that document.

OK fair enough

I you want work as a developer you ultimately need to get experience working on a development team, it sounds like your current employer is not helping with that, so I would start looking around immediately if I were you.

Prototypes, demo projects, self-learning will all stand to you for junior roles. I would be highly suspicious of a company that moved people into non-dev roles with promises to move them into dev later. It often never happens.

It's a little tough out there for juniors right now, which is why I suggest starting the search early.

Talisman · 15-07-2020 6:19pm

If you are looking to get into development in the React and NodeJS sphere then you should start looking at TypeScript. The sooner you get into TypeScript the better, it will broaden your horizons and also help you avoid getting caught up in the JavaScript ways of doing things. The original purpose of TypeScript was to bring 'proper' object oriented programming to JavaScript, this will mean very little to you but it was a major headache for C# and Java developers in general some years ago.

Later take a look at Deno. Think of it as NodeJS re-imagined by its creator, Ryan Dahl. It has native support for TypeScript, Callbacks are gone, Security is baked in and there are a few other things too. It's still in its infancy but in a year or so, TypeScript and Deno will be part of the recruitment buzzword bingo game and that will give you an edge.

DonnieCorko · 15-07-2020 10:46pm

counterpointaud wrote: »

OK fair enough

I you want work as a developer you ultimately need to get experience working on a development team, it sounds like your current employer is not helping with that, so I would start looking around immediately if I were you.

Prototypes, demo projects, self-learning will all stand to you for junior roles. I would be highly suspicious of a company that moved people into non-dev roles with promises to move them into dev later. It often never happens.

It's a little tough out there for juniors right now, which is why I suggest starting the search early.

Thanks for the reply and sorry for the late reply. Its not that they arent helping, in fact they gave me three months study time to code but I would like to continue it. I havent fully approached them yet about a dev role, Im just afraid that if they did give me one, they could switch me back to a different role in a years time if I am needed there.

Defo tough. I have alerts set up and im seeing very few jr dev roles and any ones I do see im no where near qualified but Ill keep an eye out.

Talisman wrote: »

If you are looking to get into development in the React and NodeJS sphere then you should start looking at TypeScript. The sooner you get into TypeScript the better, it will broaden your horizons and also help you avoid getting caught up in the JavaScript ways of doing things. The original purpose of TypeScript was to bring 'proper' object oriented programming to JavaScript, this will mean very little to you but it was a major headache for C# and Java developers in general some years ago.

Later take a look at Deno. Think of it as NodeJS re-imagined by its creator, Ryan Dahl. It has native support for TypeScript, Callbacks are gone, Security is baked in and there are a few other things too. It's still in its infancy but in a year or so, TypeScript and Deno will be part of the recruitment buzzword bingo game and that will give you an edge.

Thanks for this. Im aware of TypeScript and Deno. Asked a "mentor" about TS and he said its useful but to concentrate on React/JS for the moment. Its very good advice though to pick it up for the job searach a year down the road. I believe it is something thats needed/often paired with Angular aswell

Tbh, I hadnt planned to go near Deno as it is so new and I havent really picked up node yet although I have made a lot of progress compared to a few months ago.

My worry about deno is similar to my worry around React. Most companies in Ireland hiring Devs seem to be for enterprise applications and use .Net/Java. React seems to be used almost nowhere and Angular is much more popular which is the opposite of the US where React jobs are everywhere.

Any idea why this is? Could it be that Ireland is a bit slower in terms of the spread of popular technologies? Or is it because less startups and more enterprise/legacy systems?

Talisman · 16-07-2020 1:16am

DonnieCorko wrote: »

Thanks for this. Im aware of TypeScript and Deno. Asked a "mentor" about TS and he said its useful but to concentrate on React/JS for the moment. Its very good advice though to pick it up for the job searach a year down the road. I believe it is something thats needed/often paired with Angular aswell

Tbh, I hadnt planned to go near Deno as it is so new and I havent really picked up node yet although I have made a lot of progress compared to a few months ago.

My worry about deno is similar to my worry around React. Most companies in Ireland hiring Devs seem to be for enterprise applications and use .Net/Java. React seems to be used almost nowhere and Angular is much more popular which is the opposite of the US where React jobs are everywhere.

Any idea why this is? Could it be that Ireland is a bit slower in terms of the spread of popular technologies? Or is it because less startups and more enterprise/legacy systems?

You should decide for yourself where you want to go with your career and map out a path for yourself - don't pigeon hole yourself. React is easy because it does one thing and it does it well. Angular is a different beast, it's not just the presentation layer.

If you want to become a JavaScript developer then you need to live and breathe JavaScript. Read Kyle Simpson's You Don't Know JS books and understand how JavaScript works at a base level. When you go to interviews I can guarantee you some know it all ****er will try to trip you up because "you are a junior and you don't know anything". Learning the fundamentals with Kyle's books will lift you over that hurdle. If books aren't your thing then I'd recommend getting a subscription to Frontend Masters and go through Kyle's courses there. If you choose to take the Frontend Masters route then I would recommend going through Will Sentance's material afterwards. That will elevate your knowledge of how JavaScript works above that of most developers.

TypeScript will force you into good practices. Learning the language will give you a jump off point. Becoming familiar with Types and OOP will help you to transition into Java / C# at a later date if you choose to do so. I'm not saying that if you can program in TypeScript then you can program in those languages, but it will give you a handle on concepts that are kind of integral to learning them. Knowing TypeScript also opens the gateway to the realm of Angular. Angular is a big bad world and there will always be jobs there because there are so many legacy applications that will need to be maintained for years to come.

The web is constantly evolving and choosing to work on the front end means you will constantly need to be ready to upgrade your skills if you wish to change jobs. For now I would focus primarily on JavaScript and get as familiar with it as you possibly can. Don't just follow tutorials.

DonnieCorko · 16-07-2020 6:46pm

counterpointaud wrote: »

OK fair enough

I you want work as a developer you ultimately need to get experience working on a development team, it sounds like your current employer is not helping with that, so I would start looking around immediately if I were you.

Prototypes, demo projects, self-learning will all stand to you for junior roles. I would be highly suspicious of a company that moved people into non-dev roles with promises to move them into dev later. It often never happens.

It's a little tough out there for juniors right now, which is why I suggest starting the search early.

Talisman wrote: »

If you are looking to get into development in the React and NodeJS sphere then you should start looking at TypeScript. The sooner you get into TypeScript the better, it will broaden your horizons and also help you avoid getting caught up in the JavaScript ways of doing things. The original purpose of TypeScript was to bring 'proper' object oriented programming to JavaScript, this will mean very little to you but it was a major headache for C# and Java developers in general some years ago.

Later take a look at Deno. Think of it as NodeJS re-imagined by its creator, Ryan Dahl. It has native support for TypeScript, Callbacks are gone, Security is baked in and there are a few other things too. It's still in its infancy but in a year or so, TypeScript and Deno will be part of the recruitment buzzword bingo game and that will give you an edge.

Talisman wrote: »

You should decide for yourself where you want to go with your career and map out a path for yourself - don't pigeon hole yourself. React is easy because it does one thing and it does it well. Angular is a different beast, it's not just the presentation layer.

If you want to become a JavaScript developer then you need to live and breathe JavaScript. Read Kyle Simpson's You Don't Know JS books and understand how JavaScript works at a base level. When you go to interviews I can guarantee you some know it all ****er will try to trip you up because "you are a junior and you don't know anything". Learning the fundamentals with Kyle's books will lift you over that hurdle. If books aren't your thing then I'd recommend getting a subscription to Frontend Masters and go through Kyle's courses there. If you choose to take the Frontend Masters route then I would recommend going through Will Sentance's material afterwards. That will elevate your knowledge of how JavaScript works above that of most developers.

TypeScript will force you into good practices. Learning the language will give you a jump off point. Becoming familiar with Types and OOP will help you to transition into Java / C# at a later date if you choose to do so. I'm not saying that if you can program in TypeScript then you can program in those languages, but it will give you a handle on concepts that are kind of integral to learning them. Knowing TypeScript also opens the gateway to the realm of Angular. Angular is a big bad world and there will always be jobs there because there are so many legacy applications that will need to be maintained for years to come.

The web is constantly evolving and choosing to work on the front end means you will constantly need to be ready to upgrade your skills if you wish to change jobs. For now I would focus primarily on JavaScript and get as familiar with it as you possibly can. Don't just follow tutorials.

Thanks for the reply. I have been considering going back and focusing on JS more so than React to get a better base knowledge as you said. I am aware of the books and will get them. Ive been meaning to get a book to read thats more under the hood type content.

Is FrontEnd masters worth the 40 euro a month price tag compared to a Udemy JS course for example? I dont mind spending it if its genuinely worth it.

I have been considering a hdip in comp sci with a focus on SE. There is one in NCI. Its 16 months long. Would you recommend this over the self-study route? I have no problem self-studying and building a portfolio but Im wondering is a formal qual with some theoretical knowledge, C and Java under the belt better for the irish jobs market.

Talisman · 17-07-2020 10:09am

DonnieCorko wrote: »

Thanks for the reply. I have been considering going back and focusing on JS more so than React to get a better base knowledge as you said. I am aware of the books and will get them. Ive been meaning to get a book to read thats more under the hood type content.

Definitely read those books they are freely available to read online on Github or you can purchase them to support the author.

Is FrontEnd masters worth the 40 euro a month price tag compared to a Udemy JS course for example? I dont mind spending it if its genuinely worth it.

The material on Frontend Masters is very different from anything you will find on Udemy. It is a workshop format, so in terms on real-time it's ~6 hours of working through a topic. Some of the workshops were filmed over multiple days and the courses are done with people in the industry that know the material and can teach. I don't have an active subscription, I used to but I don't need it any more, now if there's something of interest on there I will sign up and work through the material and cancel the subscription before the end of the month.

To give you an idea of what to expect here is some Will Sentance material on YouTube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exrc_rLj5iw

I have been considering a hdip in comp sci with a focus on SE. There is one in NCI. Its 16 months long. Would you recommend this over the self-study route? I have no problem self-studying and building a portfolio but Im wondering is a formal qual with some theoretical knowledge, C and Java under the belt better for the irish jobs market.

A formal qualification will be favoured because there is structure to it and an assumption that you will have covered the theory behind things. That is a massive assumption on the part of industry and big tech companies like Google and Facebook hammer you on them in the interview process.

Personally, I would favour a candidate who can demonstrate how they identified a problem, solved it and can walk me through the solution including problems they encountered along the way, what assumptions had they made before they began and how did they affect their approach, if they were to tackle the problem again what would they do differently. A candidate who has a great academic record but nothing practical is a risk for me because applying the theory isn't something that everyone can do. The first candidate I know that I can work with, if they don't know something they can pick it up on the job. The second candidate is going to be a lot more work for me - they're likely to be incredibly naive and need a lot of hand holding, also in my experience they are afraid to make mistakes and that is how you will actually learn.

I recently completed a one year diploma in Artificial Intelligence, my reason for doing so is so that I have a piece of paper that shows I have a formal qualification in something that is linked to technologies that I have had a passing interest in and played with for the past number of years. It came as a complete shock to me how many of the people on the course can't code, they could see problems but had no clue about how to go about solving them and were afraid to try because they could be wrong. That made me realise that I have an innate skill and it's rare.

14ned · 17-07-2020 3:33pm

Talisman wrote: »

It came as a complete shock to me how many of the people on the course can't code, they could see problems but had no clue about how to go about solving them and were afraid to try because they could be wrong. That made me realise that I have an innate skill and it's rare.

I wouldn't say it is unfair to claim that most full time employed devs can't code either. That's why firms hire contractors like I used to be to come in and fix whatever steaming pile of poo that is generating a large chunk of their revenues. Of course it would make far more sense to employ someone like me to design and write the thing so it isn't poo, but that almost never happens: as a permie the more senior you get, the less code you write. Which is why I went into contracting originally.

Re: getting hired as a junior, it's not just juniors feeling a chill right now. Microsoft, Apple, NVidia and Google have all enacted hiring freezes since covid, at least for their C++ folk, and that's for any seniority or level of famous engineer. Facebook are still hiring, and now fully remote too. I've heard from a very senior person at Microsoft that when Microsoft resume hiring, they'll also be hiring fully remote. We'll see how the others fall out.

I suspect things won't return to normal until after January, so to the OP, I'd recommend you keep your current job - as it *is* a paying job - until the dust clears.

Niall

antimatterx · 18-07-2020 2:01pm

14ned wrote: »

I suspect things won't return to normal until after January, so to the OP, I'd recommend you keep your current job - as it *is* a paying job - until the dust clears.

Niall

This is my issue right now. I'm employed full time, I want to leave so I get a nice salary increase, but it's hard to leave a paying job at this moment in time. My contract expires in 6 weeks, so they might push me out and I'll be forced to look elsewhere. That will certainly force me to find a new job.

Self taught developer with conversion IS Msc

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