Must business purchases be of merchantable quality? (broken laptop)

floorpie · 04-07-2020 02:33PM #1

I have a laptop (Dell XPS 9570) that has had an intermittent fault from the start. The frequency of this fault has increased over time, and now happens upon every boot. I bought it in Nov 2018 and the 1 year warranty has passed.

I found a manufacturing defect on the motherboard. 3 or 4 pins on a RAM slot are erroneously soldered together. One of the pins should go to ground and I've verified is not. I believe this has caused an impedance issue which 1) has caused the intermittent symptoms, 2) has resulted in data loss, 3) destroyed a RAM module over time, 4) makes the motherboard unusable.

I'm a student and asked my university to purchase it for me with my own funds. It isn't the university's laptop, but I do use it for my work as a student. Dell are saying that it was a B2B purchase, and therefore I have no rights as a purchaser with respect to SOGA, and should have no expectations for free repairs beyond the warranty period.

Is it true that a business purchaser has no legal protection if they're sold a defective product, or if a defect manifests over time?

Is there anything I can do in this situation, or does anyone have advice for who I could talk to?

Side question. I'm troubled by the number of lies that I've been told by Dell in their efforts to sell me a solution, such as: Irish purchasers have no statutory rights beyond the warranty period (verbatim); manufacturing defects are impossible; any issue I have must have been caused by me; if I didn't contact them until now then the issue did not exist from the start. Is it legal to lie to customers in order to encourage a purchase?

Last question. My problem has escalated from tech, to their managers, to customer relations, to their managers, and now to legal. I've talked to them for hours and hours, and at no stage has anybody asked what the manufacturing defect is, in fact they refuse to listen. The PSU could be defective and (in theory) kill a customer

Is that not weird?

I've gotten some great advice on the Consumer Issues subforum but seemingly I'm not a consumer anymore, apologies to anybody seeing the same thread again. I'm attaching pics of the defect, GIF of the symptoms here: https://imgur.com/a/tfowbGA

Lenar3556 · 04-07-2020 03:20PM

The universities involvement complicates your engagement will the manufacturer, because essentially they sold it to the university who in turn sold it to you.

B2B involves a contract of sale, likely a proforma which typically wouldn’t provide the same protections as if a consumer purchased it.

You could argue, that you were in fact the purchaser from day one and the university was simply acting as your agent, but I’m not sure this will get you very far. Alternatively you could have some action against the university as a consumer, but you will likely not wish to pursue this avenue.

A particular weakness here is that this was not reported and followed up with some vigour as soon as it became apparent and at a time which was within the warranty period offered by the manufacturer under the terms of the sale.

How much are they looking for to repair it?

banie01 · 04-07-2020 03:27PM

Just to be sure of the sales path here.
Dell sold to a Uni, and the Uni sold to you?

If so, Dell owe you no Duty of Care nor are they liable IMO.
What was the actual purchase path? Was it via Heanet? Or direct via Uni purchasing and then you reimbursed?

B2B sales carry far different consideration than consumer.
Warranty and support services are often a separate service not included in the item sale.

If you did not buy from Dell, and bought a laptop sold to a Uni/Business/A.N other organisation your transactional relationship is with the Seller and not Dell.

Very often a condition of B2B sales is non transferable warranty aswell as limited or even nil support options.

floorpie · 04-07-2020 04:03PM

Thanks to both for the help.

Yeah I don't want my uni involved at all. I'm sure they'd pay for its repair if, for example, I couldn't afford it, but I don't want them to have to.

What was the actual purchase path?

As I understand it, it is PhD funding allocated to me by another organization, managed by my uni, to purchase a personal computer. The funds weren't in my bank account, but I was entitled to it. I could have bought it myself and had it reimbursed, but didn't.

Lenar3556 wrote: »

How much are they looking for to repair it?

About ~500. The laptop was 2500e. This is a reasonable amount and I have no problem paying, I was just dubious that the manufacturer bears no responsibility for an obvious and potentially dangerous defect (i.e. it's overheating to the extent components are breaking due to the ground pin issue).

Is the proforma the terms of sale listed on the quote? In it I see:

9. Warranty

9.1 Subject to clause 9.3, Dell warrants that Dell-branded Products shall (1) conform to their product specification and (2) be free from material defects for a period of 12 months from the date of the invoice ("Warranty Period") and (3) that Dell-branded spare parts shall be free from defects for 90 days from the date of delivery or for the remainder of the Warranty Period, if longer. Performance of any one of the options set out at clause 9.3 below shall constitute an entire discharge of Dell's liability under the warranties given in this clause 9.1.

9.2 ....

9.3 Dell shall at its own discretion, repair or replace Dell-branded Products that do not comply with the warranties set out in clause 9.1 provided Dell is notified in writing of the alleged defect within 7 days of the time when Customer discovers or ought to have discovered the defect and in any event within the Warranty Period. If Dell elects to replace Dell-branded Products or parts pursuant to the warranties set out in clause 9.1, Dell shall deliver the replacement Products or parts to Customer at Dell's own expense at the address to which the defective Dell-branded Products were delivered and the legal, equitable and beneficial title to the defective Products or parts which are being replaced shall (if it has vested in Customer) re vest in Dell. Customer shall make any arrangements as may be reasonably necessary to deliver up to Dell the defective Products which are being replaced and Dell shall be entitled to charge Customer if such defective Product or parts are not returned on request

Re: 9.1, it seems to me that the product didn't conform to the specification (i.e. that it has two functioning RAM slots), and it was not free from material defect for 12 months. And re: 9.3 it seems that I ought to have discovered the defect once the computer didn't boot. "and in any event within the Warranty Period" I guess this means it has to have been discovered within the warranty period?

banie01 · 04-07-2020 04:09PM

floorpie wrote: »

Thanks to both for the help.

Yeah I don't want my uni involved at all. I'm sure they'd pay for its repair if, for example, I couldn't afford it, but I don't want them to have to.

As I understand it, it is PhD funding allocated to me by another organization, managed by my uni, to purchase a personal computer. The funds weren't in my bank account, but I was entitled to it. I could have bought it myself and had it reimbursed, but didn't.

About ~500. The laptop was 2500e. This is a reasonable amount and I have no problem paying, I was just dubious that the manufacturer bears no responsibility for an obvious and potentially dangerous defect (i.e. it's overheating to the extent components are breaking due to the ground pin issue).

Is the proforma the terms of sale listed on the quote? In it I see:

Re: 9.1, it seems to me that the product didn't conform to the specification (i.e. that it has two functioning RAM slots), and it was not free from material defect for 12 months. And re: 9.3 it seems that I ought to have discovered the defect once the computer didn't boot. "and in any event within the Warranty Period" I guess this means it has to have been discovered within the warranty period?

You didn't notify Dell of a fault within the warranty period.
Given that it's a B2B sale as you have outlined, you have no recourse under SOGA (IMO).

Of the fault was reported in the 1st 12months of ownership as a B2B sale, then yes you'd be covered.

I know you mentioned that the issue was present and intermittent, but with no reported fault for the service tag, Dell are correct in their stance that it's not their problem.

The downside of B2B purchasing without a service plan really.

floorpie · 04-07-2020 04:52PM

This all seems quite unreasonable. Ignoring my own circumstance, a consumer would be protected for 6 years for this defect, but a business owner is protected for no length of time, and any protections that they have are dictated by the seller and are agreed to through the act of purchasing? A seller can give up responsibility for a manufacturing defect through a clause in a price quote (i.e. "and in any event within the Warranty Period")? Could the terms have covered the product for just a month?

All very confusing for me

Thanks again.

Samuel T. Cogley · 05-07-2020 09:32AM

Businesses are (theoretically) in a better position to negotiate the terms of their contracts which is one of the reasons why they don't get the same protections as consumers.

floorpie · 05-07-2020 12:13PM

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Businesses are (theoretically) in a better position to negotiate the terms of their contracts which is one of the reasons why they don't get the same protections as consumers.

I see now

Whereas I paid the regular consumer price and seemingly bought it with their standard commercial terms. Lesson learned. Although any negotiation here would be "to ensure that your defective product is fixed, we will sell you a service: next-day on-site repair lasting 3 years for x euro". You would then have to negotiate the terms for *that* sale...?

Why should businesses and consumers have different expectations for defect-free purchases, regardless of any freedom for negotiating terms. Warranties and such I understand may differ, wear and tear ok, even developed defects I'd get, but defects straight from the seller? This seems like a fundamental problem with the sale in the first place.

ronivek · 05-07-2020 12:30PM

In many business cases you would have separate agreements dictating how equipment is maintained.

For example if you're a moderately sized company you're likely going to have your own IT department; so you may have an additional x years parts-only warranty for systems you purchase and you basically send back a faulty part to Dell and they'll furnish you with a replacement which you'll fit yourself.

In addition the practical calculus for a business is usually much different; such as the following:

I buy 100 laptops from Dell.
10 of these fail in the first year and are covered by the standard manufacturer's warranty at no cost to me.
5 fail in the 2nd year and are repaired in-house using parts readily available within the IT department.
In the 3rd year a further 3 fail but they're not repaired as some teams got new upgraded laptops; so they're retired for parts which can be further used to keep the fleet of laptops running.

They can often amortise the cost incurred by faults over time; which an individual consumer can't really do.

As to the legal basis for why/how they're treated differently I can't really comment.

floorpie · 05-07-2020 12:46PM

ronivek wrote: »

In many business cases you would have separate agreements dictating how equipment is maintained.

For example if you're a moderately sized company you're likely going to have your own IT department; so you may have an additional x years parts-only warranty for systems you purchase and you basically send back a faulty part to Dell and they'll furnish you with a replacement which you'll fit yourself.

In addition the practical calculus for a business is usually much different; such as the following:
I buy 100 laptops from Dell.

10 of these fail in the first year and are covered by the standard manufacturer's warranty at no cost to me.

5 fail in the 2nd year and are repaired in-house using parts readily available within the IT department.

In the 3rd year a further 3 fail but they're not repaired as some teams got new upgraded laptops; so they're retired for parts which can be further used to keep the fleet of laptops running.

They can often amortise the cost incurred by faults over time; which an individual consumer can't really do.

As to the legal basis for why/how they're treated differently I can't really comment.

Thanks for the info, I suspect that the uni has agreements like this for lab computers etc. Although if all 100 of those laptops absurdly fail in year 2 because of a demonstrated defect and Dell were trying to charge to fix them, as if they'd fulfilled their part of the sale by delivering broken products, I'd be similarly confused/annoyed

whippet · 05-07-2020 04:16PM

Universities in Ireland purchase their computers from the HEAnet Framework / Office for Government Procurement Framework.

This framework usually has predetermined specs / prices and warranties for standard machines. Bespoke / higher spec machines can be quoted for individually but usually should be purchased with the standard 3 year extended warranty .. so who ever ordered this from dell in the university didn’t spec this.

Or if it wasn’t ordered from the framework (research grant etc) usually dell would give it as an option.

floorpie · 06-07-2020 10:00PM

I have a few more q's if someone wouldn't mind answering. I ask these out of curiosity/fascination, I accept now that Dell wont fix the computer.

Several people have told me that businesses don't have the same protections as consumers with regard to purchases. Businesses must negotiate their own protections etc. Dell even said SOGA doesn't apply to B2B purchases. Can anybody please point out where anything says this? Section 55 of SOGA seems to say that for both business and consumer buyers, an express warranty can not negative any implied condition in the act (e.g. merchantable quality) unless inconsistent.

Some parts even specify that provisions also apply to goods purchased by businesses, example:

In the case of a contract of sale of goods, any term of that or any other contract exempting from all or any of the provisions of section 13 , 14 or 15 of this Act shall be void where the buyer deals as consumer and shall, in any other case, not be enforceable unless it is shown that it is fair and reasonable.

So my initial q was whether goods purchased by businesses must be of merchantable quality (durable etc), and the answer seems to be yes, if it is implied that the good is of merchantable quality. Is this correct?

It lists remedies for breaches of warranty that only apply to consumers, but it doesn't seem to restrict remedies for breaches of contract to just consumers?

It furthermore says that a business buyer may waive conditions, fine, but Dell's terms aren't specific about excluded conditions:

Dell warrants that Dell-branded Products shall (1) conform to their product specification and (2) be free from material defects for a period of 12 months from the date of the invoice.

All warranties, conditions and other terms implied by law are to the fullest extent permitted by law, excluded from this Agreement.

It seems to me that businesses aren't here waiving the condition that the good is "durable as it is reasonable" as required by SOGA...?

I guess I'm missing something obvious here but can't see what...

Samuel T. Cogley · 07-07-2020 06:47PM

55.—(1) Subject to the subsequent provisions of this section, where any right, duty or liability would arise under a contract of sale of goods by implication of law, it may be negatived or varied by express agreement, or by the course of dealing between the parties, or by usage if the usage is such as to bind both parties to the contract.

Just chewing the fat here. The course of dealing is similar to 'custom and practice' so I'd assume that as they've always just given a 12 month warranty, you're probably stuck with a 12 month warranty.

Must business purchases be of merchantable quality? (broken laptop)

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