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Madeleine McCann

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Comments

  • #2312
    walshb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 58,852 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Banana Republic. wrote: »
    Sure who the hell even knows where to start in regards to who took her, if she was took, nobody on ere has a bulls notion at all, nothing at all. Let’s be honest all this is speculation.

    Of course nobody knows for certain..

    But you can have a view on whether the parents did this or someone other than the parents.

    These are the two choices..

    Only other choice is Maggie wandered off and has not been found. Had an accident and has not been found..


  • #2313
    walshb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 58,852 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Plumbthedepths wrote: »
    If I could state exactly what happened to Maddie don't you think I would have saved the Metropolitan Police 12 million in their futile search which has discovered nothing after 13 years. I believe she never left the apartment alive though. No evidence of an intruder so it narrows down things considerably. After that it gets difficult to say or even guess what happened.

    Are you more leaning towards the parents being responsible or someone else?


  • #2314
    Plumbthedepths
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    MonsterCookie wrote: »
    Keep in mind the thread was started in response to, and to discuss, latest developments.

    Are you attempting to set the parameters for discussion?


  • #2315
    Banana Republic.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,587 ✭✭✭Banana Republic.


    walshb wrote: »
    Of course nobody knows for certain..

    But you can have a view on whether the parents did this or someone other than the parents.

    These are the two choices..

    Only other choice is Maggie wandered off and has not been found. Had an accident and has not been found..

    You would find a child if they wondered off like that. Parents could easily had someone do it also, there’s 100’s of scenarios at play but it’s not Anti McCanns or Pro McCanns some ppl are open to it all. In any investigation the ppl closest are always under suspicion this isn’t a new thing.


  • #2316
    Plumbthedepths
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    walshb wrote: »
    Are you more leaning towards the parents being responsible or someone else?

    I don't know who is responsible but I don't believe Maddie was alive when she left the apartment, there was also no evidence of an intruder found.


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  • #2317
    Banana Republic.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,587 ✭✭✭Banana Republic.


    MonsterCookie wrote: »
    Yeah, you have stated it. Repeatedly. Whenever anyone starts to discuss latest developments, or any other theory. Keep in mind the thread was started in response to, and to discuss, latest developments.

    Anytime latest developments are posted they are completely ignored as there is so much infighting going on on this thread.


  • #2318
    walshb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 58,852 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Plumbthedepths wrote: »
    I don't know who is responsible but I don't believe Maddie was alive when she left the apartment, there was also no evidence of an intruder found.

    I know you don’t know. I don’t know either..

    Bit who do you think?

    I am very much thinking it was not the parents..


  • #2319
    MonsterCookie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 959 ✭✭✭MonsterCookie


    Plumbthedepths wrote: »
    I don't know who is responsible but I don't believe Maddie was alive when she left the apartment, there was also no evidence of an intruder found.

    But supposing someone like CB was able to get in and out of the apt without being spotted.

    Isn’t it possible that with some planning, and a bit of luck, they wouldn’t have left much of a trace.


  • #2320
    walshb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 58,852 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Then no evidence of an intruder....?

    Maddie may have been lured out..

    Is it impossible that an intruder was in the room, took her and left no evidence? Does there have to be “evidence?” No..


  • #2321
    Plumbthedepths
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    walshb wrote: »
    I know you don’t know. I don’t know either..

    Bit who do you think?

    I am very much thinking it was not the parents..

    I don't know who it was but I suspect whatever happened was an accident. If your intent is to try and get 'it was the parents ' as an answer you'll be waiting. I have no doubts as to the parents guilt regarding neglect but I do have some regards responsibility for her death. As I said I suspect it was an accident after that disposal of body and timeline is an unknown.
    The lastest suspect is just another false dawn inmo. Especially as it was said by the former Investigator a year ago that a patsy would be found.
    Now I accept I could be completely wrong, but nothing I have seen to date makes me think I am.


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  • #2322
    Day Lewin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,874 ✭✭✭Day Lewin


    Evidence of an intruder - Kate McCann said that an internal door and window were in slightly different positions than they were left in. People can be surprisingly accurate about this kind of thing.

    The other indicator is that the McCann parents immediately raised the alarm: if they had just committed a crime, they need not have done this.
    It would have been much simpler to just wait until tomorrow morning and make whatever grisly arrangements had to be made, all un-watched.
    I mean, that's what I would have done were I such a criminal - lie low, creep out tomorrow morning, etc. Maybe no-one will notice for a few hours at least - and even if detected, the time-line will be vague. And we could hire a car and get rid -- etc etc etc

    Not immediately draw everyone's attention and raise a big hue and cry!

    Mere straws in the wind - very small shreds - but still suggestive, I think.


  • #2323
    walshb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 58,852 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Plumbthedepths wrote: »
    I don't know who it was but I suspect whatever happened was an accident. If your intent is to try and get 'it was the parents ' as an answer you'll be waiting. I have no doubts as to the parents guilt regarding neglect but I do have some regards responsibility for her death. As I said I suspect it was an accident after that disposal of body and timeline is an unknown.
    The lastest suspect is just another false dawn inmo. Especially as it was said by the former Investigator a year ago that a patsy would be found.
    Now I accept I could be completely wrong, but nothing I have seen to date makes me think I am.

    Why can’t you just say who you think caused the accident?

    Think. Not know. Surely you are leaning one way here?

    You keep deflecting with “I don’t know.” None of us know..


  • #2324
    Plumbthedepths
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    Day Lewin wrote: »
    Evidence of an intruder - Kate McCann said that an internal door and window were in slightly different positions than they were left in. People can be surprisingly accurate about this kind of thing.

    .

    People can be quite convincing even to themselves.


    http://www.scholarpedia.org/article/False_memory


  • #2325
    WAW
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 242 ✭✭WAW


    briany wrote: »
    If the Tapas 7 had all agreed that leaving their kids in the apartments was fine while they dined across the pool, then it's probably a conclusion that many of the holidaymakers with kids who stayed at that resort arrived at as well. Where something is found once, it may be unique, but where it's found more than once, it may be common.

    Not that anyone would admit to it now, of course.

    Just what gets me is the amount of moral grandstanding going by tabloids and its readers, many of whom are probably parents who never thought twice about letting their young children out to play all day and who could very easily have been abducted by an opportunistic paedo if they were in the area. Gross negligence on a wide scale right up to the mid 90s if not longer.

    Letting children out to play all day is not the same as leaving them unattended for hours in unlocked apartments at night in a foreign country. The two are not comparable. Are you seriously saying that it was common for 18 months olds and 3 and under to be out playing all day by themselves? Usually, when children are out, even when parents aren't, there are older kids, neighbours keeping an eye out and children know their boundaries and their areas. I spent my own childhood free-range in my own locality but that's is entirely different to going to a foreign country and being left unattended at night.
    The Tapas group did it. That's surely an aberration.


  • #2326
    Plumbthedepths
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    walshb wrote: »
    Why can’t you just say who you think caused the accident?

    Think. Not know. Surely you are leaning one way here?

    You keep deflecting with “I don’t know.” None of us know..
    Deflecting? I have already said I suspect she died as a result of an accident ie not intentional. As to who or what was the cause I don't know. Now that clearly is not the answer you want but I'm sure you understand this is a discussion forum and i'm under no obligation to answer in such a manner that meets all your criteria.


  • #2327
    Banana Republic.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,587 ✭✭✭Banana Republic.


    walshb wrote: »
    Then no evidence of an intruder....?

    Maddie may have been lured out..

    Is it impossible that an intruder was in the room, took her and left no evidence? Does there have to be “evidence?” No..

    Never thought of that theory that she could of been lured out therefore no evidence inside. I can’t help think the dogs have been ruled out for no particular reason.

    If it was the parents the sedative OD killed her or someone like CB kidnapped her and sold her into the child market, reason being cause it’s reported he said about a horrible job to do days before Madeline went missing.

    The parents one is she was killed by the sedative and they hid her for days and then rented the van and disposed of the body and that’s why the dogs smelt death in the room and in the rented car. (Far fetched most likely but when the dogs came in that was my general thoughts on what may have happened.


  • #2328
    walshb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 58,852 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Plumbthedepths wrote: »
    Deflecting? I have already said I suspect she died as a result of an accident ie not intentional. As to who or what was the cause I don't know. Now that clearly is not the answer you want but I'm sure you understand this is a discussion forum and i'm under no obligation to answer in such a manner that meets all your criteria.

    You can’t say who you think caused the accident?

    I certainly wouldn’t judge you..

    So, you have no thought or opinion on who caused this...

    But my thinking the McCann’s being viewed as guilty is way way off was met with a reply from you kind of ridiculing this.

    Yet, you have no thought on who you think caused it..

    I don’t mean to be badgering. I just think it very odd you have no thought on who you “think” did this; or you do, and are somehow uneasy about saying..


  • #2329
    MonkieSocks
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,393 ✭✭✭MonkieSocks


    Banana Republic. wrote: »
    . I can’t help think the dogs have been ruled out for no particular reason.

    This from the Dog Handler in this case.

    He seems to have redefined his opinion of how a Cadaver Dog should be trained.
    From Martin Grime 13-04-2018

    Human Remains Detection Dogs (HRDD): Sometimes referred to as a Victim Recovery Dog (VRD), or Cadaver Dog, will specifically discriminate, and detect, human deceased victims, inclusive of dismembered parts, in all environments / contexts, on the surface, sub-surface, on land, and in water.

    The dogs should be trained to generalise the spectrum of decomposition process to allow for the investigation of recent death to cold case historical remains.

    This type of detection dog may detect human blood as a sub-set of human decomposition.

    Canines trained with the inclusion of animal remains (pig, pork) cannot be referred to as HRDD
    http://eprints.staffs.ac.uk/4750/1/F...ndation%20.pdf

    In the UK it is against the law to train dogs with human Cadavers.

    Eddie was trained on pig meat so was not a Cadaver Dog according to Mr Grime
    EVRD used to be trained using swine (pigs) as their odour is the closest to that of humans.

    https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm

    =(:-) Me? I know who I am. I'm a dude playing a dude disguised as another dude (-:)=



  • #2330
    MonsterCookie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 959 ✭✭✭MonsterCookie


    Plumbthedepths wrote: »
    Are you attempting to set the parameters for discussion?

    Pot

    Kettle

    Black.

    In the interests of the thread I won’t say any more.


  • #2331
    briany
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,162 ✭✭✭✭briany


    WAW wrote: »
    Letting children out to play all day is not the same as leaving them unattended for hours in unlocked apartments at night in a foreign country. The two are not comparable. Are you seriously saying that it was common for 18 months olds and 3 and under to be out playing all day by themselves? Usually, when children are out, even when parents aren't, there are older kids, neighbours keeping an eye out and children know their boundaries and their areas. I spent my own childhood free-range in my own locality but that's is entirely different to going to a foreign country and being left unattended at night.
    The Tapas group did it. That's surely an aberration.

    No, the simple principle being espoused here is that it is unforgivable to leave young children unattended for any length of time. Whether 1 or 3 or 8. Whether in a foreign country or up the fields. Whether night time or day. The other qualifiers are being used as a way to distance from my scenario. If it's wrong in principle then it is just that.


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  • #2332
    Day Lewin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,874 ✭✭✭Day Lewin


    On a point of facts: I looked up cadaver dogs in Wikipedia

    They CAN be extremely accurate at detecting something - up to 94%
    but so much depends on how they are trained. It's always with rewards for alerting.

    But the whole procedure is invalidated if the handler tells them where to alert! Of course they will do so, for reward!

    Someone mentioned earlier in the thread that the police repeatedly drew the dogs' attention to a car used by the McCanns.

    Well, that cannot be a valid result!


  • #2333
    TheW1zard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,346 ✭✭✭TheW1zard


    Day Lewin wrote: »
    On a point of facts: I looked up cadaver dogs in Wikipedia

    They CAN be extremely accurate at detecting something - up to 94%
    but so much depends on how they are trained. It's always with rewards for alerting.

    But the whole procedure is invalidated if the handler tells them where to alert! Of course they will do so, for reward!

    Someone mentioned earlier in the thread that the police repeatedly drew the dogs' attention to a car used by the McCanns.

    Well, that cannot be a valid result!

    Watch the video


  • #2334
    CityMan2020
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13 ✭CityMan2020


    Madeline was last noted to be in her apartment with her mother Kate .

    She was never seen alive outside of the apartment afterwards

    The cadaver dog alerted there was a dead body in that apartment . It also alerted to the sofa (same place the other dog alerted blood) the wardrobe in Kate and Gerrys room, Kates clothes and one of the twins clothes. They also alerted to Madelines cuddly toy.

    The were also brought to a underground car park . There was 10 cars . They alerted to the McCanns rental vehicle . The boot and the door .

    Come on now guys.

    But yeah lets keep going with this German guy and random vanishing into thin air.


  • #2335
    CityMan2020
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13 ✭CityMan2020


    Day Lewin wrote: »
    On a point of facts: I looked up cadaver dogs in Wikipedia

    They CAN be extremely accurate at detecting something - up to 94%
    but so much depends on how they are trained. It's always with rewards for alerting.

    But the whole procedure is invalidated if the handler tells them where to alert! Of course they will do so, for reward!

    Someone mentioned earlier in the thread that the police repeatedly drew the dogs' attention to a car used by the McCanns.

    Well, that cannot be a valid result!


    Simply not true . Why do people refuse to believe what happened here .Its all there in front of you.


  • #2336
    Day Lewin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,874 ✭✭✭Day Lewin


    Heard from a forensic pathologist on a true-crime podcast: :

    "Victim recovery dogs are not evidence: they just lead you to where you may find evidence"

    Or in this case, not.

    (PS That's what they call Cadaver dogs, it just sounds less gruesome)


  • #2337
    walshb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 58,852 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    CityMan2020 wrote: »
    Simply not true . Why do people refuse to believe what happened here .Its all there in front of you.

    You are hanging the McCann's on cadevar dogs?

    The cadevar dogs' "evidence" is not at all conclusive.....


  • #2338
    Plumbthedepths
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    Day Lewin wrote: »
    Heard from a forensic pathologist on a true-crime podcast: :

    "Victim recovery dogs are not evidence: they just lead you to where you may find evidence"

    Or in this case, not.

    (PS That's what they call Cadaver dogs, it just sounds less gruesome)

    You seem intent on dismissing the reaction of both dogs yet you aren't even aware both dogs were not trained to react to the same thing.
    Both dogs reacted in the apartment but for different reasons.


  • #2339
    virginmediapls
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 325 ✭✭virginmediapls


    CityMan2020 wrote: »
    Madeline was last noted to be in her apartment with her mother Kate .

    She was never seen alive outside of the apartment afterwards

    The cadaver dog alerted there was a dead body in that apartment . It also alerted to the sofa (same place the other dog alerted blood) the wardrobe in Kate and Gerrys room, Kates clothes and one of the twins clothes. They also alerted to Madelines cuddly toy.

    The were also brought to a underground car park . There was 10 cars . They alerted to the McCanns rental vehicle . The boot and the door .

    Come on now guys.

    But yeah lets keep going with this German guy and random vanishing into thin air.


    What a dismissive attitude to have, despite having very little knowledge of the situation haha.


  • #2340
    Plumbthedepths
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    virginmediapls wrote: »
    What a dismissive attitude to have, despite having very little knowledge of the situation haha.

    His comment seems to match what was reported by the media at the time.



    https://www.thesun.ie/news/3873553/madeleine-mccann-netflix-documentary-shows-moment-sniff-dog-signals-scent-of-blood-in-praia-da-luz-apartment/


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  • #2341
    CityMan2020
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13 ✭CityMan2020


    Plumbthedepths wrote: »
    His comment seems to match what was reported by the media at the time.



    https://www.thesun.ie/news/3873553/madeleine-mccann-netflix-documentary-shows-moment-sniff-dog-signals-scent-of-blood-in-praia-da-luz-apartment/


    Everything is there in the files . People seem to want an abduction for some reason . Or just love a mystery . When in fact, its right there in front of them what happened .


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