Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail Discussion

Lord Glentoran · 21-06-2020 07:38PM

ezstreet5 wrote: »

I said nothing defamatory against Cannon; it is all honest opinion. It is not untrue that Cannon called for the abandonment of the Athlone to Galway greenway in 2015 after meeting with landowners. And it is my honest opinion that his promise of "No CPOs" was reckless and set progress back on this segment by years. And yes, I have a degree of residual anger over what I consider to be a political failure and missed opportunity.

And I find it bizarre that Cannon is now claiming "mission accomplished" in posts on social and mainstream media over a singular reference to the QMG in the new RSES, while at the same time having little-to-no enthusiasm for EV2, which is included by name in the Programme for Government. We all know that the RSES seems internally conflicted with regard to the future of the WRC, and we're all trying to resolve that in our own minds. After reading both Cannon's and WOT's summaries, WOT's seems closer to what's actually in the document (but not 100% accurate either). And using Cannon's logic, if the QMG's inclusion in the RSES makes it "a certainty," then isn't railway reactivation also a certainty?

I don't dislike either Cannon or Canney personally. The former blocked me on FB many years ago because I was openly critical of his inaction on another issue. He's very good at controlling the narrative, and dissenting opinions are quickly deleted and the poster is blocked.

Finally, those campaigning against Canney are definitely hiding behind a veil of anonymity. There is the public campaign on the QMG FB page, and then there is the defamatory and perverted campaign on the West-on-Crack FB page, which no one will own up to.

In my view the whole tone is meant to be intimidatory, in order to push dissenting opinion away and control the narrative.

Lord Glentoran · 21-06-2020 10:14PM

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

In my view the whole tone is meant to be intimidatory, in order to push dissenting opinion away and control the narrative.

Meanwhile, West-on-crack kicks a hole in the floor and goes even lower.

[I think we can do without that image from West-on-crack -- people can find them if they want -- mod]

Greaney · 21-06-2020 10:40PM

Yes, I've seen that page, creepy, and weirdly unfunny... like the person who made it is the only person in on the joke... lots of sleazy pictures of middle aged men in ladies underwear??!"£$%^&????

Muckyboots · 21-06-2020 10:40PM

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

Meanwhile, West-on-crack kicks a hole in the floor and goes even lower.

That's disgraceful and anyone who trys to defend it, or justify it, needs to look for a new moral compass.

21-06-2020 10:55PM

Muckyboots wrote: »

That's disgraceful and anyone who trys to defend it, or justify it, needs to look for a new moral compass.

Couldn't agree more but it's been rumoured in the past that it's actually run by a wot advocate in an effort to bring disrepute to the greenway campaign.

It's silly though, it brings nothing to the debate and should be shutdown

Greaney · 21-06-2020 11:06PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Couldn't agree more but it's been rumoured in the past that it's actually run by a wot advocate in an effort to bring disrepute to the greenway campaign.

It's silly though, it brings nothing to the debate and should be shutdown

It's not a West on Track page. The folk who seem to be following it are pro-greenway

When the page was brought to my attention, I was wondering 'who on earth looks at this' and as I scrolled down I recognized a face.... They were on an earlier committee of The Quietman Greenway, and 'liked' a lot of the posts, commenting on one. It's a Greenway page alas.

The success of a campaign relies on the caliber of it's leaders. It's a bitter lesson I had to learn in the past myself.

Lord Glentoran · 22-06-2020 12:39AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Couldn't agree more but it's been rumoured in the past that it's actually run by a wot advocate in an effort to bring disrepute to the greenway campaign.

That’s a pretty shoddy accusation to make.

Edit -

Curiously - on 14 August 2019 the Sligo Mayo Greenway page posts up a link to it on their page and the text is as follows:

always worth a peak at this satirical page which focuses on Con Manny modeled on guess who?

Screenshotted for posterity etc.

westtip · 22-06-2020 11:49AM

Anyway aside from all these accusations one way or another and btw that page is not me, yes I have seen it, whatever, it seems to be satirical but a below the belt stuff. However a Facebook page be it West on Track, SMG or indeed QMG is unlikely to be the reason for any government decision, a tiny amount of the general population actually see this stuff.

Like many of us even I am getting very bored with all this.

So let me ask all the WRC supporters a few perfectly civilized debating points:

What exactly are the benefits of a railway between Claremorris and Athenry?

Why should this project be prioritized over other national projects - examples please with rational arguments?

Why does it have to go on the route of the closed railway the road lobby always goes for new routes, what is different about this?

How much will it cost to rebuild and how much subvention will it require and can you justify these costs in a national context?

How would you feel if the Rail Report does not recommend it, would you be prepared to accept its findings?

Any other thoughts. I just want to sit back and hear your rationale again to clear the air, because I haven't seen the spell binding argument yet.

Give you a couple of weeks can we hear the arguments again please. I suggest Greenway supporters step back and let's hear what they have to say.

Geuze · 22-06-2020 12:04PM

westtip wrote: »

Like many of us even I am getting very bored with all this.

So let me ask all the WRC supporters a few perfectly civilized debating points:

What exactly are the benefits of a railway between Claremorris and Athenry?

Why should this project be prioritized over other national projects - examples please with rational arguments?

Why does it have to go on the route of the closed railway the road lobby always goes for new routes, what is different about this?

How much will it cost to rebuild and how much subvention will it require and can you justify these costs in a national context?

I consider myself a supporter of public transit.

The re-opening to Claremorris should not be prioritized over other national projects, like:

Railway to airport
Railway to Navan
200kph electrification on mainline to Belfast and Cork
DART interconnector
Improved Cork-Limerick connections
New tram lines in Dublin and Cork
New services on Limerick railway lines
BusConnects

I don't have any CBA or NPV data to hand, but I presume many/all of these projects have superior NPV than the WRC to Claremorris?

I support large capital investment into public transport (1 bn + pa) and modal shift, combined with road pricing, carbon taxes, and regional development.

So I would not abandon the WRC project, and I would keep the WRC re-opening on the list of projects.

Maybe a phased re-opening?

(1) re-double GY-Athenry, prepare for electrification
(2) new stations at Roscam and ??
(3) make Craughwell and Ardrahan resuest-stops, increase speeds/timings to Limerick

I presume using the original route, with modifications, would be vastly cheaper than a new route??

Lord Glentoran · 22-06-2020 12:05PM

westtip wrote: »

Anyway aside from all these accusations one way or another and btw that page is not me, yes I have seen it, whatever, it seems to be satirical but a below the belt stuff. However a Facebook page be it West on Track, SMG or indeed QMG is unlikely to be the reason for any government decision, a tiny amount of the general population actually see this stuff.

Like many of us even I am getting very bored with all this.

So let me ask all the WRC supporters a few perfectly civilized debating points:

What exactly are the benefits of a railway between Claremorris and Athenry?

Why should this project be prioritized over other national projects - examples please with rational arguments?

Why does it have to go on the route of the closed railway the road lobby always goes for new routes, what is different about this?

How much will it cost to rebuild and how much subvention will it require and can you justify these costs in a national context?

How would you feel if the Rail Report does not recommend it, would you be prepared to accept its findings?

Any other thoughts. I just want to sit back and hear your rationale again to clear the air, because I haven't seen the spell binding argument yet.

Give you a couple of weeks can we hear the arguments again please. I suggest Greenway supporters step back and let's hear what they have to say.

If we’re going to be called liars in thread and without any apparent sanction (in fairness not by you) what’s the point?

I also see Sligo Eye is gone. ‘nuff said, as the late great Stan Lee used to say.

westtip · 22-06-2020 01:15PM

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

If we’re going to be called liars in thread and without any apparent sanction (in fairness not by you) what’s the point?

I also see Sligo Eye is gone. ‘nuff said, as the late great Stan Lee used to say.

Pity LG and thank you it's not my intention to call anyone a liar, yes there has been emotional stuff on this thread, but just seeing if we can come back to the base arguments again, hence my list of questions because like any of us simply saying "Its a good idea" - and that applies to both camps will not win an argument. I am sure Sligo Eye will be back, sure we have all had bans before including me, wear that badge with pride and then moderate behaviour, writing posts late at night with a couple of scoops inside one is not recommended btw for anyone.

Del.Monte · 22-06-2020 01:45PM

westtip wrote: »

Pity LG and thank you it's not my intention to call anyone a liar, yes there has been emotional stuff on this thread, but just seeing if we can come back to the base arguments again, hence my list of questions because like any of us simply saying "Its a good idea" - and that applies to both camps will not win an argument. I am sure Sligo Eye will be back, sure we have all had bans before including me, wear that badge with pride and then moderate behaviour, writing posts late at night with a couple of scoops inside one is not recommended btw for anyone.

Surely ginger beer is okay?

intellectual dosser · 22-06-2020 01:53PM

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Of course. Existing operating rail services are not comparable to rebuilding lines abandoned more than half a century ago at enormous capital cost and subsequent operating cost ( almost certainly a loss) when the infrastructure exists for a superior level of bus service at low operating cost.

It's interesting that the pro-rail side what to extend the conversation to include all rail, while at the same time they are telling us that the experience of other greenways can't be applied here. A report into the relative costs and benefits of rail and greenway on this line would be great and a definitive answer as to which is most economically beneficial could be provided. The taxpayer has already paid for a report on the rail operation but we are being denied access to it for some unknown reason.

I wasn't trying to create different goalposts for either side of the debate here. What I was getting at is that bus and rail satisfy different requirements and use cases.

Commuters, students etc can get a bus but it won't attract users with mobility issues, I can't see myself taking the kids into town on a bus from Milltown etc. I am open to correction but I've never seen a park and ride uptake in a bus service as you have with rail (in a public transport capacity, people are not going to drive to Ballyglunin to then get a bus).

You might take issue with some of those arguments but in summary the bus and train are not like for like. While drilling down into the bus dicussion it shouldnt be forgotten that WRC would provide more than just a local commuter service for Galway City.

intellectual dosser · 22-06-2020 01:56PM

westtip wrote: »

Anyway aside from all these accusations one way or another and btw that page is not me, yes I have seen it, whatever, it seems to be satirical but a below the belt stuff. However a Facebook page be it West on Track, SMG or indeed QMG is unlikely to be the reason for any government decision, a tiny amount of the general population actually see this stuff.

Like many of us even I am getting very bored with all this.

So let me ask all the WRC supporters a few perfectly civilized debating points:

What exactly are the benefits of a railway between Claremorris and Athenry?

Why should this project be prioritized over other national projects - examples please with rational arguments?

Why does it have to go on the route of the closed railway the road lobby always goes for new routes, what is different about this?

How much will it cost to rebuild and how much subvention will it require and can you justify these costs in a national context?

How would you feel if the Rail Report does not recommend it, would you be prepared to accept its findings?

Any other thoughts. I just want to sit back and hear your rationale again to clear the air, because I haven't seen the spell binding argument yet.

Give you a couple of weeks can we hear the arguments again please. I suggest Greenway supporters step back and let's hear what they have to say.

If you're going to give us homework westtip you should give it to all, on both sides of the discussion

22-06-2020 02:26PM

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

If we’re going to be called liars in thread and without any apparent sanction (in fairness not by you) what’s the point?

I'm assuming you are referring to my post directed at Greaney

It was in reference to her statement regarding the Ballyglunin facebook page

However, upon reflection, I'm willing to give her the benefit of the doubt and retract "lies" and replace with misinformed, should that please the court

fyi, if you have any issues with anything I post, there is a "Report" button

westtip · 22-06-2020 03:09PM

intellectual dosser wrote: »

If you're going to give us homework westtip you should give it to all, on both sides of the discussion

Let's just get the debate back on an even keel, yes the greenway advocates should set out the argument again, but the railway boys were in truth here first, it doesn't mean coming up with an idea first means it is right. But let's hear the rail arguments backed up by some facts and figures. I am always prepared to listen to an argument and I know some rail supporters who have listened and changed views, Marian Harkin for one, she gave me short shrift back in 2012 but look at her view now. Lets' get away from the back biting and hear the arguments for rail again, I have lost sight on the reasoned rationale for the railway....perhaps the railway supporters have too.

Lord Glentoran · 22-06-2020 04:12PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I'm assuming you are referring to my post directed at Greaney

It was in reference to her statement regarding the Ballyglunin facebook page

However, upon reflection, I'm willing to give her the benefit of the doubt and retract "lies" and replace with misinformed, should that please the court

fyi, if you have any issues with anything I post, there is a "Report" button

As it happens, I did report it but I don’t want to get drawn into a conversation about moderation on thread, thanks.

donvito99 · 22-06-2020 04:45PM

intellectual dosser wrote: »

Commuters, students etc can get a bus but it won't attract users with mobility issues, I can't see myself taking the kids into town on a bus from Milltown etc.

If people in Dublin have managed to bring kids into and out of town for decades on various types of low floor and non low floor buses, and if the disabled have been able to do same on low floor buses, I do not see why people living along the WRC would not also be able to also take the bus.

If anything, it would be easier as buses are less likely to be jam packed? And a bus can effectively serve people with disabilities more conveniently i.e. it is more likely that a bus stop will be closer to your house and drop you off closer to your destination, that's an inherent advantage of a bus.

I am open to correction but I've never seen a park and ride uptake in a bus service as you have with rail (in a public transport capacity, people are not going to drive to Ballyglunin to then get a bus).

I don't think there has ever been a decent application of bus based park & ride in the country though. For instance, people driving to Dublin Airport don't abandon their trips because the transport from the long term car parks to the terminals involve a bus.

If the service is quick, reliable and brings people from where they are to where they are going conveniently, it doesn't matter if it is bus based. People may enjoy the ride quality of the train or the ability to walk up and down it when its not busy, but that isn't driving people to move to public transport in my view.

Greaney · 22-06-2020 04:59PM

I was very wary about answering this....

I'm a cycling advocate and subscribe to the standard policy of most cycling advocacy groups. That is first and foremost about 'everyday forms of transport'.

Transport policy should be based on the Hierarchy of Road Users, which prescribes the following order of priority:
People who walk
People on bicycles
Public transport users
Private motor vehicles

westtip wrote: »

What exactly are the benefits of a railway between Claremorris and Athenry?

1) It's part of a greater rail network so it cannot be looked at in isolation. In the fullness of time it will link Limerick to Sligo, or if we were ambitious, Cork to Donegal and Derry...
2) When the Western rail corridor is fully built it will turn three stations on it's route, Collooney, Claremorris & Athenry into major junctions.
3) It will offer an alternative to the car for commuting.
4) It will lead to a reduction in car use and even ownership along the route
5) This is an issue close to my heart.... it will allow for independent travel for the disabled along it's route. Tuam is the office for East Galways branch of the Irish Wheel chair association. For far too long the disabled have not had their voice listened to on this issue. Please check out the interview with the late Ronnie Conlon, and advocate for independent living in this Eco Eye interview. His interview starts at 3:00

westtip wrote: »

Why should this project be prioritized over other national projects - examples please with rational arguments?

My view is similar to these.
Colm Mc Carthys

The National Bus & Rail Union

westtip wrote: »

Why does it have to go on the route of the closed railway the road lobby always goes for new routes, what is different about this?

1) CIE own it
2) It was the planned route to re-open in 2011
3) The road lobby is treated very differently to rail or cycling, we can see that from the way the Eurovelo through East Galway has been treated v the Gort to Tuam motorway. I have no doubt a brand new alternative rail route would be a lot more difficult and expensive to build.

westtip wrote: »

How much will it cost to rebuild and how much subvention will it require and can you justify these costs in a national context?

Motorway, Gort to Tuam, 53.2km €550 million
Rail Ennis to Athenry, 58km, €106 million

I'm not qualified to do the calculations on the subvention, but motorways need maintenance too.... and at least the rail users are paying directly to use it, there's no toll on the Gort to Tuam motorway.

westtip wrote: »

How would you feel if the Rail Report does not recommend it, would you be prepared to accept its findings?

I might feel the same way I felt when the sugar beet factory in Carlow closed, with the hindsight that it should have been kept open... I'd view it rather like the Deloitte Report

Isambard · 22-06-2020 05:03PM

can I point out that Limerick and Sligo are already linked by rail as are Cork and Derry

What advantage does the WRC route have over these routes?

donvito99 · 22-06-2020 05:10PM

Greaney wrote: »

My view is similar to these.

The National Bus & Rail Union

This was a fairly flimsy attempt at frustrating the transport planners by the NBRU so as to promote their union member's interests, not those of passengers or potential public transport users. I sincerely hope that this does not represent your actual views.

Greaney · 22-06-2020 05:12PM

Isambard wrote: »

can I point out that Limerick and Sligo are already linked by rail as are Cork and Derry

Might want to bring a sleeping bag and a number of meals and running shoes for that

#obtuse

Isambard · 22-06-2020 05:16PM

Greaney wrote: »

Might want to bring a sleeping bag and a number of meals and running shoes for that

same goes for the WRC.

There is nothing of any size between Athenry and Sligo that justifies hundreds of millions of expenditure. Improve the existing lines to make the journey easier and quicker would cost less and be of far more benefit.

Greaney · 22-06-2020 05:23PM

donvito99 wrote: »

If people in Dublin have managed to bring kids into and out of town for decades on various types of low floor and non low floor buses, and if the disabled have been able to do same on low floor buses, I do not see why people living along the WRC would not also be able to also take the bus.

This is a real 'let them eat cake' comment, like many I've seen before. I've never been on a bus that had disabled access toilets. The Western Rail Corridor isn't just for 15 min journeys.

Public transport should be encouraged to be used, over and above the car where possible, this is fundamental to active travel policy and philosophy

Lord Glentoran · 22-06-2020 05:31PM

Isambard wrote: »

same goes for the WRC.

There is nothing of any size between Athenry and Sligo that justifies hundreds of millions of expenditure. Improve the existing lines to make the journey easier and quicker would cost less and be of far more benefit.

Fastest bus Sligo to Limerick 5hrs 24mins. And most of it is motorway.

Train takes 12 hours but I’m sure self driving electric cars will beat a hyper loop by 2095 or later.

Or we can use existing infrastructure owned by the taxpayer and develop the rail service and plan for increasing population.

Or we can do nothing and wonder why in twenty years dispersed development and car dependence concentrate what prosperity we have around Dublin only.

donvito99 · 22-06-2020 06:02PM

Greaney wrote: »

This is a real 'let them eat cake' comment, like many I've seen before. I've never been on a bus that had disabled access toilets. The Western Rail Corridor isn't just for 15 min journeys.

What's the scenario here? A PWD going from Sligo to Limerick? Given that the WRC from Limerick to Galway is slower than the intercity bus service, doesn't it stand to reason that a PWD is less likely to need to use a bathroom en route if they spend less time getting there?

I don't think there is any public transport mode meeting the requirements of all people with disabilities. I don't believe anyone here would seriously argue that public transport infrastructure should be contingent on the basis of its partial inconvenience to people with disabilities, otherwise Dublin Bus, Bus Eireann, Luas, DART and the airlines would have to cease operations in the morning.

Greaney · 22-06-2020 06:24PM

donvito99 wrote: »

What's the scenario here? A PWD going from Sligo to Limerick? Given that the WRC from Limerick to Galway is slower than the intercity bus service, doesn't it stand to reason that a PWD is less likely to need to use a bathroom en route if they spend less time getting there?

I don't think there is any public transport mode meeting the requirements of all people with disabilities. I don't believe anyone here would seriously argue that public transport infrastructure should be contingent on the basis of its partial inconvenience to people with disabilities, otherwise Dublin Bus, Bus Eireann, Luas, DART and the airlines would have to cease operations in the morning.

I had to look up what PWD meant!!!! I'm a carer for my family member with both mobility issues and acquired brain injury (which left them with severe epilepsy and unable to drive anymore). The train is a lifeline to her. She finds the bus difficult to use due to the fact their coaches with high steps etc. In fact rail meets the needs of the disabled more than most other transport forms. Crikey, to be reduced to a bloody Acronym!!!

The terms you've used there speaks volumes about the contempt many in this country have towards the most vulnerable people who don't or cannot drive. :mad:

ezstreet5 · 22-06-2020 06:30PM

Greaney wrote: »

I had to look up what PWD meant!!!! I'm a carer for my family member with both mobility issues and acquired brain injury (which left them with severe epilepsy and unable to drive anymore). The train is a lifeline to her. She finds the bus difficult to use due to the fact their coaches with high steps etc. In fact rail meets the needs of the disabled more than most other transport forms. Crikey, to be reduced to a bloody Acronym!!!

The term you've used there speaks volumes about the contempt many in this country have towards the most vulnerable people who don't or cannot drive. :mad:

If I were a Portuguese Water Dog wanting to go from Sligo to Limerick, I would travel via Eurovelo 1 due to the route's outstanding natural beauty.

Greaney · 22-06-2020 06:32PM

ezstreet5 wrote: »

If I were a Portuguese Water Dog wanting to go from Sligo to Limerick, I would travel via Eurovelo 1 due to the route's outstanding natural beauty.

I just got that....

I got Print Working Directory when I first googled it.... for crying out loud!!!

Isambard · 22-06-2020 07:26PM

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

Fastest bus Sligo to Limerick 5hrs 24mins. And most of it is motorway.

Train takes 12 hours but I’m sure self driving electric cars will beat a hyper loop by 2095 or later.

Or we can use existing infrastructure owned by the taxpayer and develop the rail service and plan for increasing population.

Or we can do nothing and wonder why in twenty years dispersed development and car dependence concentrate what prosperity we have around Dublin only.

Or you could improve Sligo to Dublin and Cork to Dublin to increase the line speeds to modern standards (particularly the Sligo line) and have a service which actually goes through places with a good sized population.

Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail Discussion

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