Another wind generation record today

Pa ElGrande · 16-06-2020 5:08pm #1

This is from the Eirgrids dashboard on July 16th 2020.

The wind energy lobby have no problem putting out press releases when the wind is blowing, their silence is deafening when there is no wind.

How much is having random energy actually costing electricity consumers?

What would happen today if we had power cuts because there was not have natural gas to make up the difference?

Overheal · 16-06-2020 5:27pm

Pa ElGrande wrote: »

What would happen today if we had power cuts because there was not have natural gas to make up the difference?

Surely that is the purpose of investing in non-finite sources of energy.

Muahahaha · 17-06-2020 5:00pm

Pa ElGrande wrote: »

This is from the Eirgrids dashboard on July 16th 2020.

The wind energy lobby have no problem putting out press releases when the wind is blowing, their silence is deafening when there is no wind.

How much is having random energy actually costing electricity consumers?

What would happen today if we had power cuts because there was not have natural gas to make up the difference?

The graphs outline the importance of gas for when the wind doesnt blow. Crazy that there is likely another huge gas field offshore and the Greens want to ban finding it, instead we would be reliant on foreign imports of gas. The switchover to renewables takes time and gas is needed in that intervening period. When we have built a couple of thousand giant offshore wind turbines and large solar farms thats the time to look at reducing gas, not now.

whisky_galore · 17-06-2020 5:22pm

Are these the wind turbines everyone wants, but wants near someone else's house?

biko · 17-06-2020 5:26pm

The future is nuclear.

Overheal · 17-06-2020 5:28pm

biko wrote: »

The future is nuclear.

nukular, lisa. It's spelled nukular.

JohnnyFlash · 17-06-2020 5:32pm

There's a bit of a perfect storm (if you'll pardon the pun) starting to emerge around bringing too much sporadic renewable generation onto the grid.

The operators of gas plant are finding it increasingly difficult to make a profit, and are only winning peaking and low priority auctions. If there's wind capacity available then that's what gets used. All good, except when the wind isn't blowing. So the latest idea is you'll create distributed generation plants made up of Wind, Solar, Battery, Gas. The smaller gas plants are very inefficient though. You will never have a small firing plant reach the same efficiency as you would with something like the ESB's Aghada plant.

Offshore wind is far more reliable, and in general we do have an excellent wind profile compared to most of our European neighbours. We also have the interconnector. But you will always need Gas on the system, and you need gas plants that can come on the system quickly. You won't get investment in Gas from the big generators though if they can't make a buck. The ESB now operates in a deregulated generation market, so you can't have them running loss making plants for the sake of it either.

It's complex stuff, and this rush to get gas off the system will need to be approached cautiously.

Markcheese · 17-06-2020 5:35pm

It's all part of a mix , the gas stations are great .. they're relatively quick to power up (in comparison to coal ) , which allows you to run them less when the wind is blowing ,so they'll last much longer ....
Like Grid level Batteries(chemical anyway) werent part of the mix a few years ago , but they make the grid more stable and resilient... As well as helping to replace the dirtiest peaking plants ...
It's a system . A graph of 1 day / 1 month / 1 season in isolation for any part of the mix is about as useful as a chocolate teapot ....

JohnnyFlash · 17-06-2020 5:35pm

biko wrote: »

The future is nuclear.

It almost certainly isn't in Ireland, unless you count the development of the interconnector to France to be using nuclear. The figures don't stack up.

Markcheese · 17-06-2020 5:36pm

Nuclear may well be the future ...
But it's not the present

hmmm · 17-06-2020 5:38pm

You'd hope the pandemic and the low-likelihood/high-risk nature of it would make society a bit more wary of putting all their eggs in one basket, and building in plenty of redundancy into key systems.

I'm all for renewables, and every euro we can keep in europe and not have to send to some despotic regime overseas is welcome, but we also need those in favour of renewables to have a sense of realism and allow the building of alternatives for when the renewables are unavailable. The banning of exploration for gas is, I agree, a stupid idea.

Markcheese · 17-06-2020 6:16pm

Aghada is 5 different generation units ...
Then new one (10 years old) is 4 hundred odd mw
then a 1980s 270 mw (I think ) unit.
And 3 smaller open cycle units (about 90mw each ),

If you're up the hill nearby on a clear day when the open cycle units are running there is a thick brown haze spewing from the stacks ....
I assume the bids include keeping stations available to produce power , if the grid needs my station available (with x amount of notice ) to produce power then thats Y million Euros per year , the actual electricity is extra at so much a unit ...

Muahahaha · 17-06-2020 7:09pm

whisky_galore wrote: »

Are these the wind turbines everyone wants, but wants near someone else's house?

We've huge capacity to put thousands of turbines out at sea, the UK is already working on the worlds largest offshore wind farm. https://hornseaprojectone.co.uk/

Turbines offshore are a lot bigger that what you can get away with on shore. Ireland could eventually become an exporter of energy by building large scale off shore wind farms.

biko wrote: »

The future is nuclear.

Certainly will be as soon as that interconnecter to France gets done. Its actually a best of both worlds scenario for Ireland as we will get cheap and reliable nuclear power without us needing to spend billions on a nuclear plant or having to figure out what to do with nuclear waste. The French have serious expertise in nuclear so we can get all the benefits of that without the expense when the interconnector cable gets laid. Cheap nuclear power should also help us attract more FDI in manufacturing and data centres.

Markcheese · 17-06-2020 11:54pm

Aren't the French moving away from nuclear ? Not completely.. but it's just too dear to build new reactors

https://www.power-technology.com/comment/renewable-energy-to-lead-the-capacity-mix-over-nuclear-power-in-france-by-2028/

Rodin · 17-06-2020 11:55pm

Batteries.

We should have had the offshore wind market already sewn up

JohnnyFlash · 18-06-2020 12:05am

Rodin wrote: »

Batteries.

We should have had the offshore wind market already sewn up

What sort of batteries? I'm not being smart here, but I read a huge amount of guff from Elon Musk followers on Twitter about batteries, as if it was some sort of magical panacea for the short-to-medium term challenges we have in trying to balance the grid.

Off-shore wind will be a game changer. I agree with that. We have capacity to put more wind on the system. We are so lucky to have Turlough Hill so close to Dublin. Such foresight by the ESB.

What I don't see is how we can get rid of gas from the grid mix by 2030. It's just not achievable. And now we are saying we'd rather be beholden to Russian gas than exploring the possibilities of bringing it onshore from off the coast of Ireland.

Beasty · 18-06-2020 12:55am

The future of nuclear is unclear

Solar power will help brighten things up

When it comes to wind energy - it's a breeze

Pa ElGrande · 18-06-2020 7:27am

Rodin wrote: »

Batteries.

We should have had the offshore wind market already sewn up

That's not a runner for anything other than short dips in power while spinning up other sources of electricity generation. No one yet has figured out how wind turbines and solar panels can run a fully functioning electrical grid without fossil fuel backup. That means we have to pay for the capital costs and maintenance of the standby equipment which needs to be able to supply when wind and solar don't work, is it any wonder this happened?

Reality Is Gradually Catching Up To Green Energy
June 08, 2020/ Francis Menton

Somebody has to engineer an electrical system based on the intermittent sources that works 24/7/365. But in fact, even as major states and countries have piously proclaimed commitment to “net zero” energy, nobody has even started the engineering project. And as soon as you start to consider the question, you quickly realize that the whole endeavor is almost certainly impossible. As an example, Kelly addresses batteries:

Take batteries. It is estimated that current battery manufacturing capabilities will need to be in the order of 500-700 times bigger than now to support an all-electric global transport system. The materials needed just to allow the UK to transition to all electric transport involve amounts of materials equal to 200% the annual global production of cobalt, 75% of lithium carbonate, 100% of neodymium and 50% of copper. Scaling by a factor of 50 for the world transport, and you see what is now a showstopper. The materials demands just for batteries are beyond known reserves. Would one be prepared to dredge the ocean floor at very large scale for some of the material? Should securing the reserves not be a first priority?

source

The problems are not unique to Ireland

Germany’s Green Power Finance Is Becoming Unaffordable

Power consumers make up the difference between payments made to investors and the wholesale power price. That causes the green surcharge to rise when wholesale prices fall, and they’ve dropped 20% since January as coronavirus lockdowns hit power demand.

“The paradoxical mechanism that’s allowed green power to flourish can also push up surcharges,” said Fell, who now co-heads the Berlin-based Energy Watch Group that calls for a radical overhaul of green finance.

source

The UK also experienced no wind generation with the shortfall being made up by gas and nuclear.

No Wind, No Sun–But Plenty Of Gas & Nuclear!

Thelonious Monk · 18-06-2020 7:58am

We'll never have nuclear in Ireland, seriously people, we can't even build a bus lane in Dublin without half the city going nuts, imagine telling people there was a nuclear power plant being built nearby. Also the costs and planning are way beyond our means.
Are there any small countries with nuclear tech? Israel?
Wind and other renewables are hopefully the future. Better insulation in homes would really help with gas usage too, some houses are so awful for this in Ireland, impossible to heat without having the gas cranked up all the time.

Harry Palmr · 18-06-2020 7:59am

This thread has two ads for biogas technology.

There are plans afoot by a Dutch company for an offshore wind farm at Rosslare. I'd expect that to be the first of several along the south east coast. Where you have a good mix of wind plus shallow waters

https://afloat.ie/marine-environment/power-from-the-sea

screamer · 18-06-2020 8:09am

Sure we have a massive source for biogas, all those farting cows the greens are giving out about.....
so hypocritical though to ban gas exploration here whilst importing it from elsewhere, and nuclear too. We’ll never progress with the nimby tax and ban mentality our politicians have in relation to fuel security.

geotrig · 18-06-2020 8:24am

Pa ElGrande wrote: »

This is from the Eirgrids dashboard on July 16th 2020.

The wind energy lobby have no problem putting out press releases when the wind is blowing, their silence is deafening when there is no wind.

How much is having random energy actually costing electricity consumers?

What would happen today if we had power cuts because there was not have natural gas to make up the difference?

outside of the "coal" that is a very similar pie chart for the u.k s power generation that was shown last week when they where talking up not running coal power stations anymore , the one thing that i was surprised with was the gas being so high 60/70% or there abouts and nuclear only at 13/14%.

celtic_oz · 18-06-2020 8:40am

such an old debate .. its over, renewables and inter-connectors won

Pa ElGrande · 18-06-2020 9:25am

celtic_oz wrote: »

such an old debate .. its over, renewables and inter-connectors won

In reality we are are building a complex expensive random electricity generation network that must be fully backed up with fossil fuel generation for days like today (overcast, no wind). Those inter-connectors are underwritten with cap and floor contracts and the thinking is the supplier can buy surplus generation capacity on the open market to lower the costs of electricity consumption, however the problem with random generated electricity means it cannot supplied when it is needed and the wind turbine operators will have to accept below prices that don't cover a sufficient return on investment, and since the legislation has committed to these schemes the difference must be underwritten by the taxpayer and electricity consumer (public service obligation levy) otherwise these schemes will go bankrupt.

Podge_irl · 18-06-2020 9:44am

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Are there any small countries with nuclear tech? Israel?

Finland has a number of nuclear reactors, though they are having a lot of difficulties getting their latest plant online and it is well over budget.

Long term the future is almost definitely going to be nuclear for base energy levels.

Wanderer78 · 18-06-2020 9:48am

Podge_irl wrote:

Long term the future is almost definitely going to be nuclear for base energy levels.

Completely agree, I can't see renewables getting us over the line, I hear good things about thorium reactors

Harry Palmr · 18-06-2020 9:52am

Allied to this topic is storage as mentioned.

Construction is beginning on the world’s largest liquid air battery, which will store renewable electricity and reduce carbon emissions from fossil-fuel power plants.

The project near Manchester, UK, will use spare green energy to compress air into a liquid and store it. When demand is higher, the liquid air is released back into a gas, powering a turbine that puts the green energy back into the grid.

A big expansion of wind and solar energy is vital to tackle the climate emergency but they are not always available. Storage is therefore key and the new project will be the largest in the world outside of pumped hydro schemes, which require a mountain reservoir to store water.

The new liquid air battery, being developed by Highview Power, is due to be operational in 2022 and will be able to power up to 200,000 homes for five hours, and store power for many weeks.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/jun/18/worlds-biggest-liquid-air-battery-starts-construction-in-uk?utm_term=Autofeed&CMP=twt_gu&utm_medium&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1592458205

We're still in the early days for this, with lots of small scale bits and pieces of technology in various states of development but over time integrated systems will be built to a large scale and one day we or our children will realise that carbon for mains power is history

bob mcbob · 18-06-2020 10:02am

Pa ElGrande wrote: »

That's not a runner for anything other than short dips in power while spinning up other sources of electricity generation. No one yet has figured out how wind turbines and solar panels can run a fully functioning electrical grid without fossil fuel backup. That means we have to pay for the capital costs and maintenance of the standby equipment which needs to be able to supply when wind and solar don't work, is it any wonder this happened?

Reality Is Gradually Catching Up To Green Energy
June 08, 2020/ Francis Menton

The problems are not unique to Ireland

Germany’s Green Power Finance Is Becoming Unaffordable

The UK also experienced no wind generation with the shortfall being made up by gas and nuclear.

No Wind, No Sun–But Plenty Of Gas & Nuclear!

I had a look at this site - some really interesting articles such as this climate change being a fabrication and celebrating China opening a wave of coal fired power stations. I wonder who funds it?

https://notalotofpeopleknowthat.wordpress.com/2015/11/21/noaas-fabricated-record-temperatures/

Pa ElGrande · 18-06-2020 1:21pm

screamer wrote: »

Sure we have a massive source for biogas, all those farting cows the greens are giving out about.....

Would somebody please think of us poor taxpayers.

Maybe Pennys are selling trousers with deeper pockets.

Farmers fuelling Ireland’s future
Tim Lombard is a member of Seanad Éireann and was an unsuccessful Fine Gael Dáil candidate for Cork South West.

Currently, there is no government-funded support scheme available for renewable gas in Ireland. In order for Irish farmers to reap the benefits that anaerobic digestion and biomethane production can provide, there needs to be a support scheme put in place. State support is required to cover the price gap between wholesale natural gas and the cost of producing biomethane.

source

Muahahaha · 18-06-2020 7:06pm

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

What I don't see is how we can get rid of gas from the grid mix by 2030. It's just not achievable. And now we are saying we'd rather be beholden to Russian gas than exploring the possibilities of bringing it onshore from off the coast of Ireland.

Its actually insane not exploring for gas. Its not like Ireland is blessed with loads of natural resources like the UK is so what little we have should be exploited over the next 10 years while we move to renewables. Green party policy says otherwise and if the PfG goes ahead we'll end up buying gas from Russia or Norway anyway, all this is is pure window dressing by the Greens, it wont change a thing.

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

We'll never have nuclear in Ireland, seriously people, we can't even build a bus lane in Dublin without half the city going nuts, imagine telling people there was a nuclear power plant being built nearby. Also the costs and planning are way beyond our means.

We will never have our own nuclear power plant, it is not politically palatable and the costs are eyewatering anyway. But that doesnt matter because with the interconnector to the UK we are already using power generated from nuclear anyway and that will increase further with the interconnector to France which is progressing through the EU at the moment. Last I heard is we'll be getting a whopping big grant from Brussels to help pay for it.

celtic_oz · 20-06-2020 10:29am

Pa ElGrande wrote: »

In reality we are are building a complex expensive random electricity generation network that must be fully backed up with fossil fuel generation for days like today (overcast, no wind). Those inter-connectors are underwritten with cap and floor contracts and the thinking is the supplier can buy surplus generation capacity on the open market to lower the costs of electricity consumption, however the problem with random generated electricity means it cannot supplied when it is needed and the wind turbine operators will have to accept below prices that don't cover a sufficient return on investment, and since the legislation has committed to these schemes the difference must be underwritten by the taxpayer and electricity consumer (public service obligation levy) otherwise these schemes will go bankrupt.

yes at the moment. The future is renewables, storage and interconnectors. Thats the end game.

Dont understand why people have to cry until its cheaper immediately.

Its a bit like the electric car
outrage "they dont have the range"
outrage "they're more expensive"
outrage "theirs nowhere to charge them"

10 years later

are you buying tesla stock

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gacGuWjqKco

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ssfbq7PVktA

joseywhales · 20-06-2020 1:39pm

So aren't modern batteries really inefficient at storing energy? I had always assumed it was more efficient to pump water into a reservoir as a store for potential energy on a massive scale. I guess you need the natural reservoirs. Also transmission isn't free either long distance power lines are hardly very efficient unless you have extremely high voltage, given the resistance over thousands of miles of cable.

I am a fan of small reactors.

celtic_oz · 21-06-2020 10:06am

joseywhales wrote: »

So aren't modern batteries really inefficient at storing energy? I had always assumed it was more efficient to pump water into a reservoir as a store for potential energy on a massive scale.

No.. the exact opposite

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gemTSR0xmwA

Yellow_Fern · 21-06-2020 10:25am

joseywhales wrote: »

So aren't modern batteries really inefficient at storing energy? I had always assumed it was more efficient to pump water into a reservoir as a store for potential energy on a massive scale. I guess you need the natural reservoirs. Also transmission isn't free either long distance power lines are hardly very efficient unless you have extremely high voltage, given the resistance over thousands of miles of cable.

I am a fan of small reactors.

They are efficient but they are nowhere near as energy dense as fossil fuels.

Biafranlivemat · 25-06-2020 12:04am

why is there a need for batteries at all.
This talk about batteries is a fairly new thing, about 10 or so years.
For example the ESB in Ireland, generated electricity for many decades without needing batteries.
Why are batteries needed now.

Pa ElGrande · 25-06-2020 7:18am

Biafranlivemat wrote: »

why is there a need for batteries at all.
This talk about batteries is a fairly new thing, about 10 or so years.
For example the ESB in Ireland, generated electricity for many decades without needing batteries.
Why are batteries needed now.

Government energy policy means they are being committed to a higher generation capacity from more random energy sources on the grid. Issues like frequency control (~50Hz) and spinning reserve become more challenging and costly when you add a greater capacity of random energy generation, that's on top of the usual grid transmission faults and planned maintenance operations. We are starting to see batteries deployed with wind turbines.

hi5 · 25-06-2020 11:09am

Use the excess renewable energy to produce a store of hydrogen, then use the hydrogen to produce electricity when the wind is not blowing.

https://www.euractiv.com/section/energy/news/germany-plans-to-promote-green-hydrogen-with-e7-billion/

Muahahaha · 25-06-2020 12:55pm

Id wonder about the whole battery thing. They need rare earth metals and if all the car manufacturers are all going electric by 2030 thats going to place huge demand on the metals needed for them to work. Is there enough supply in the world of these rare earth metals to create billions of batteries?

joseywhales · 25-06-2020 1:23pm

celtic_oz wrote: »

No.. the exact opposite

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gemTSR0xmwA

Yeah I don't have the expertise for this but I read this blog/white paper while trying to understand battery v reservoir

https://www.google.com/amp/s/cleantechnica.com/2020/04/25/how-long-can-lithium-ion-energy-storage-actually-last/amp/

His argument is against some age old mantra that batteries only have a 4 hour maximum storage period.

However he concludes he estimates 8-12 hours. So there have been days with no wind at all for 24 hours in Ireland, how do we have a constant supply using batteries in such conditions?

Again I've no background, so maybe batteries are somehow fine.

Reservoir has the advantage of almost infinite capacity up to the size of the reservoir and obviously less intense environmental impact over 100 years than battery production and replacement and recycle. There is the impact of a man made lake of course

Markcheese · 25-06-2020 2:07pm

Chemical batteries at a grid level are relatively new ,
But the esb built pumped storage at turlough hill (a giant water battery) in the 70s ...
It's another tool and makes it easier to "balance the grid " ( with or without wind ) ,
You can't plan on long term ( days ) battery storage at the moment it's too just too expensive...

celtic_oz · 02-07-2020 8:23pm

its like deja vu with electric cars

*batteries are too expensive*

5 years later.. oh they're not

Yellow_Fern · 02-07-2020 8:44pm

celtic_oz wrote: »

its like deja vu with electric cars

*batteries are too expensive*

5 years later.. oh they're not

Not saying many countries that rely on battery in large way. I think you are not looking at the physics.

celtic_oz · 03-07-2020 6:34pm

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

Not saying many countries that rely on battery in large way. I think you are not looking at the physics.

Silly argument.. not that many people driving electric therefore they are crap.

Australia have more natural gas than they know to do with (5th largest reserves on the planet) and yet when faced with a decision on the hornsdale Tesla installation earlier this year they decided to double the amount of battery storage

And that’s while batteries are relatively expensive

The number of battery factories is set to explode

It’s over for gas peakers .. they are stranded

Biafranlivemat · 03-07-2020 9:30pm

celtic_oz wrote: »

Silly argument.. not that many people driving electric therefore they are crap.

Australia have more natural gas than they know to do with (5th largest reserves on the planet) and yet when faced with a decision on the hornsdale Tesla installation earlier this year they decided to double the amount of battery storage

And that’s while batteries are relatively expensive

The number of battery factories is set to explode

It’s over for gas peakers .. they are stranded

If the number of battery factories is set to explode, then they better increase the amount of child miners in the Congo.
https://news.un.org/en/story/2020/06/1067272

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2016/06/drc-cobalt-child-labour/

Yellow_Fern · 03-07-2020 10:39pm

celtic_oz wrote: »

Silly argument.. not that many people driving electric therefore they are crap.

Australia have more natural gas than they know to do with (5th largest reserves on the planet) and yet when faced with a decision on the hornsdale Tesla installation earlier this year they decided to double the amount of battery storage

And that’s while batteries are relatively expensive

The number of battery factories is set to explode

It’s over for gas peakers .. they are stranded

coal maybe in most regions but not in my opinion gas. i am sure batteries will explode, but that doesnt mean the end of gas. wing, solar and batteries have low front end costs, but create high back end costs. So they are popular to adopt but adoption does not correlate with carbon reductions. nuclear has enormous front end costs but all the data shows it is best positioned to reduce carbon emissions.

03-07-2020 10:46pm

Biafranlivemat wrote: »

If the number of battery factories is set to explode, then they better increase the amount of child miners in the Congo.
https://news.un.org/en/story/2020/06/1067272

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2016/06/drc-cobalt-child-labour/

Children in Africa need jobs too.
Would you rather see them unemployed?

Dakota Dan · 03-07-2020 10:46pm

celtic_oz wrote: »

Silly argument.. not that many people driving electric therefore they are crap.

Australia have more natural gas than they know to do with (5th largest reserves on the planet) and yet when faced with a decision on the hornsdale Tesla installation earlier this year they decided to double the amount of battery storage

And that’s while batteries are relatively expensive

The number of battery factories is set to explode

It’s over for gas peakers .. they are stranded

What’ is it like to be living in dreamland? Go back to sleep.

Cienciano · 03-07-2020 10:57pm

Battery storage is a load of shíte to be honest. Not for a whole country. We'd still need fossil fuel backup. The cost must KWH must be huge. How big would the storage have to be for a town like Drogheda? Including industry? Platin cement plant run on batteries?

Markcheese · 04-07-2020 12:14am

Batteries are great , they're a fantastic grid level tool , and grid level Batteries don't have to be the latest ,most energy dense ,lightest most expensive ones ,
But gas ( or other fossil fuels ) are going to be a good part of the mix for the foreseeable , ( and I agree gas peakers are yesterday's news... )
But not gas powered power stations in general ,
Yes we could go for hydrogen production ... But it's horribly inefficient, and the storage isn't straight forward either ....

JohnnyFlash · 04-07-2020 12:36am

Why would gas peakers be yesterday's news, but large scale gas like Dublin Bay, Tynagh, Aghada have a place? Not trying to catch you up here; just interested in why you'd see the need for large scale thermal generation.

celtic_oz · 04-07-2020 10:47am

running a whole country off batteries ?? who said that

Do you know what a peaker plant is for ?

The solution is renewables , interconnectors and grid scale battery peaker plants

Watch Tony Seba here : https://youtu.be/6Ud-fPKnj3Q?t=622

Another wind generation record today

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