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J. K. Rowling is cancelled because she is a T.E.R.F [ADMIN WARNING IN POST #1]

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    #662
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,050 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    DrGreenThumb82 wrote: »
    Clicked into this thread for the first time.

    I'm lost for words.

    Out.

    Dont blame you. No wonder theres pretty much no trans people left on the site with all this spewing of vitriolic hate.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #663
    JoannaJag
    Registered Users Posts: 85 ✭✭JoannaJag


    Silentcorner wrote: »
    How is your own little ejaculator coming along by the way....do you think he is a potential rapist? Are you happy for him to be socially reconstructed as a care giver?

    Gosh no I don’t think he’s a potential rapist. I hope I’m bringing him up to respect both vulvees and other ejaculators and that violence is wrong. And that hurtful words are not literal violence. And the difference between literal and figurative. I don’t really understand the care giver ref though - would you mind explaining?


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    #664
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    DrGreenThumb82 wrote: »
    Clicked into this thread for the first time.

    I'm lost for words.

    Out.

    It is indeed an absolutely barmy topic.
    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Dont blame you. No wonder theres pretty much no trans people on the site with all this spewing of vitriolic hate.

    That poster gave no indication of their personal thoughts on the matter.


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    #665
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    randomchild wrote: »
    ‘Transwomen are women. Any statement to the contrary erases the identity and dignity of transgender people and goes against all advice given by professional health care associations’. - Daniel Radcliffe in the guardian today.

    This is blatant speech coercion: it is now apprently against medical advice to even ask questions about transgender ideology. The notion that the right to free speech must be suprrssed for the medical treatment of others is insane.

    It also says so much that the guardian only carries this story once a man has weighed in on the issue and has the temerity to put a woman expressing her opinion back in her place.
    Forcing a population to say things which they know to be untrue is the act of a despot.

    The people of North Korea are required to believe manifestly untrue things about The Dear Leader, like he can control the weather and invented the hamburger.


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    #666
    Silentcorner
    Registered Users Posts: 6,226 ✭✭✭Silentcorner


    JoannaJag wrote: »
    Gosh no I don’t think he’s a potential rapist. I hope I’m bringing him up to respect both vulvees and other ejaculators and that violence is wrong. And that hurtful words are not literal violence. And the difference between literal and figurative. I don’t really understand the care giver ref though - would you mind explaining?

    It is stated policy of the National Women's Council of Ireland that boys should be socially reconstructed as care givers

    "I had found a statement in a document published by the National Women’s Council, which called for men to be “socially constructed” as carers and women to be “socially constructed” as workers. I rejoined that I did not want to be “socially constructed” by anyone."

    https://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoints/columnists/victoria-white/who-decided-that-career-is-more-important-than-love-and-family-473102.html?&session=PxdrD2ott+MIZ7ISqPbYVKKp8VbNLtTH/Vabfh38ZXk&_ga=2.97561500.2021229891.1590518509-1082183123.1509972388

    There is a consequence for deconstructing gender, it creates mayhem...as and you can see that genie is out of the bottle and threatening womens rights and it will only get worse, one in fifty UK male prisoners are now identifying as women!


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    #667
    Neyite
    Administrators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,947 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Neyite


    seamus wrote: »
    If that is the case, it also logically erases biological men as a sex category.

    Why is it only an issue that women are apparently under attack?

    I would like to point out for the record that self-determination has been possible in Ireland for five years, and society has not collapsed, and women have not had their biology or their rights erased.


    Seamus, in Ireland the GRA has some subtle differences to the UK one - notably the exceptions such as prisons and hospital wards as far as I can remember. So there's no automatic right of a transwoman to have a bed in a public ward beside another woman, and there's no automatic right to be housed in a female prison. There may have been cases where it's been an issue but I've not heard of any - I imagine they are dealt with in Ireland on a case by case basis in as sensitive a way as possible.

    It is a growing problem in the UK though and there are quite a few violent offenders, particularly rapists conveniently changing their gender legally to be housed in a female prison. It's a nice loophole for them - move from a prison where sex offenders are usually at the bottom of the food chain, move to a secure unit where in general the population are no threat to you AND you have a fresh pool of vulnerable victims to sexually assault.


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    #668
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    Silentcorner wrote: »
    It is stated policy of the National Women's Council of Ireland that boys should be socially reconstructed as care givers

    "I had found a statement in a document published by the National Women’s Council, which called for men to be “socially constructed” as carers and women to be “socially constructed” as workers. I rejoined that I did not want to be “socially constructed” by anyone."

    https://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoints/columnists/victoria-white/who-decided-that-career-is-more-important-than-love-and-family-473102.html?&session=PxdrD2ott+MIZ7ISqPbYVKKp8VbNLtTH/Vabfh38ZXk&_ga=2.97561500.2021229891.1590518509-1082183123.1509972388

    There is a consequence for deconstructing gender, it creates mayhem...as and you can see that genie is out of the bottle and threatening womens rights and it will only get worse, one in fifty UK male prisoners are now identifying as women!

    I read somewhere that if all those that identify that way were allowed into women's prisons, it would raise the UK women's prison population by 50%. Which is totally bonkers, when you think about.

    Gender and sex are different though. My own arguments in this thread are solely based on sex-based rights, a much more unambiguous area.


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    #669
    iptba
    Registered Users Posts: 4,878 ✭✭✭iptba


    Neyite wrote: »

    It is a growing problem in the UK though and there are quite a few violent offenders, particularly rapists conveniently changing their gender legally to be housed in a female prison. It's a nice loophole for them - move from a prison where sex offenders are usually at the bottom of the food chain, move to a secure unit where in general the population are no threat to you AND you have a fresh pool of vulnerable victims to sexually assault.
    Conditions for female prisoners are also sometimes more humane than for male prisoners.


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    #670
    Sarcozies
    Registered Users Posts: 177 ✭✭Sarcozies


    JoannaJag wrote: »
    I think that’s a really, really important discussion to have. I also think we need to acknowledge that vulva- owners are statistically more at risk of violent crime from penis-havers than from other women. I believe that’s one of the primary reasons for separating men and women on the first place. Of course if we do not keep the biological categories distinct then these statistics become rather meaningless. Which is handy, if you are a penis-having abuser, trans or otherwise. It doesn’t really benefit anyone else.

    Just so we are clear I don’t think any of the testicle owning children in my daughter’s class are a particular risk to her. They are all very sweet children. I even have my own delightful testosterone producing offspring. But I do think there are good reasons for uterus owners to be separated from testicle-havers when we are at our most vulnerable.

    Very interesting.

    I'll assume you would be for racial segregation in America to protect white and Asians for the same reasons? Black people committ the majority of violent crime there.


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    #671
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    iptba wrote: »
    Conditions for female prisoners are also sometimes more humane than more male prisoners.

    iptba, I know you are very passionate about men's rights and I completely respect that. But I kind of feel like you are missing the point here. Nobody condones the violence men face in prison. It's appalling. The point is, do we want to bring women's prisons down to that level OR keep women's prisons at the higher standard whilst trying to raise the conditions for men's prisons to those of women's prisons?


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    #672
    Silentcorner
    Registered Users Posts: 6,226 ✭✭✭Silentcorner


    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »
    I read somewhere that if all those that identify that way were allowed into women's prisons, it would raise the UK women's prison population by 50%. Which is totally bonkers, when you think about.

    Gender and sex are different though. My own arguments in this thread are solely based on sex-based rights, a much more unambiguous area.

    That's probably why they are now advocating that women are not sent to prison...because, punishing convicted females isn't fair.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-45627845


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    #673
    iptba
    Registered Users Posts: 4,878 ✭✭✭iptba


    Gruffalox wrote: »
    On the safety, discrimination against males type arguments - it is known that women are more likely maybe exclusively to exercise Munchausen by Proxy type harm on their children. Just because this fact presumptively discriminates against women and regardless of the rarity of occurence among women as a whole, still safe guarding children requires medical professionals to be alert for this possibility when diagnosing injury to children.
    Another apparently discriminatory presumption that speaks to safeguarding would be FGM, for example. But medical professionals will be more alert in certain circumstances than in others.
    Are you saying female parents are more likely to arrange FGM than male parents? Or that females are more likely to perform FGM than males? Or both? Neither?


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    #674
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    Neyite wrote: »
    Seamus, in Ireland the GRA has some subtle differences to the UK one - notably the exceptions such as prisons and hospital wards as far as I can remember. So there's no automatic right of a transwoman to have a bed in a public ward beside another woman, and there's no automatic right to be housed in a female prison. There may have been cases where it's been an issue but I've not heard of any - I imagine they are dealt with in Ireland on a case by case basis in as sensitive a way as possible.

    It is a growing problem in the UK though and there are quite a few violent offenders, particularly rapists conveniently changing their gender legally to be housed in a female prison. It's a nice loophole for them - move from a prison where sex offenders are usually at the bottom of the food chain, move to a secure unit where in general the population are no threat to you AND you have a fresh pool of vulnerable victims to sexually assault.

    This is all true.

    Still though, I do feel frustrated when people cite that self-ID has been in Ireland for five years and there have been "no incidents". Get a group of women together and ask them a few things. Ask them when they first started to receive lewd comments. Ask them what creepy things have happened to them. Ask them if they have ever been sexually assaulted. Hopefully a good smattering of the group will be able to say that nothing has happened to them. But we know that in that group, there will be stories. And we KNOW that not every transgression is reported. I bet most transgressions aren't reported. The woman/girl just carries it. Women and certainly many girls keep things to themselves for many reasons. For girls, embarrassment would be a big factor.

    And now with self-ID, there another uncertainty added, the doubt over whether to confront somebody you think shouldn't be in a sex-segregated space. You won't be able to demand to see somebody's GRC so if they say they are allowed to be there, that has to be accepted. A subtle, insidious erosion of a previous protection. I don't want to wait for something awful to happen. I think we need to plan for the worst case scenario. It's more important than feelings.


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    #675
    Cupatae
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,915 ✭✭✭Cupatae


    Go way with these bunch of clowns and anyone that supports em, the human race is getting embarrassing now.. some of these people are just mentally ill and get a by on equality, and freedom of speech...


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    #676
    Neyite
    Administrators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,947 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Neyite


    Neyite wrote: »
    Seamus, in Ireland the GRA has some subtle differences to the UK one - notably the exceptions such as prisons and hospital wards as far as I can remember. So there's no automatic right of a transwoman to have a bed in a public ward beside another woman, and there's no automatic right to be housed in a female prison. There may have been cases where it's been an issue but I've not heard of any - I imagine they are dealt with in Ireland on a case by case basis in as sensitive a way as possible.

    It is a growing problem in the UK though and there are quite a few violent offenders, particularly rapists conveniently changing their gender legally to be housed in a female prison. It's a nice loophole for them - move from a prison where sex offenders are usually at the bottom of the food chain, move to a secure unit where in general the population are no threat to you AND you have a fresh pool of vulnerable victims to sexually assault.


    Actually, my mistake - in the UK there is an exception to the GRA - trans men currently not have primogeniture. So for example, a trans man cannot inherit their fathers title or their seat in the House of Lords.


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    #677
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    Neyite wrote: »
    Actually, my mistake - in the UK there is an exception to the GRA - trans men currently not have primogeniture. So for example, a trans man cannot inherit their fathers title or their seat in the House of Lords.

    The UK is currently being portrayed as a very transphobic nation but really, I'm seeing it as a place that recognises that it has kept many sex-based protections in place that other Western countries haven't and that it needs to hold on to them.

    Very interesting, the primogeniture issue. I'm amazed that it hasn't been seized upon. I mean, if transmen are men as the mantra goes, why is that not permitted?


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    #678
    JoannaJag
    Registered Users Posts: 85 ✭✭JoannaJag


    Sarcozies wrote: »
    Very interesting.

    I'll assume you would be for racial segregation in America to protect white and Asians for the same reasons? Black people committ the majority of violent crime there.

    False equivalence. Teenage black males are the biggest group of victims of violent crime in the USA, not white or Asian people. Of course you could argue since male and female holds little meaning any more, we don’t know what this actually means.

    In answer to your question no, I absolutely am not in favor of racial segregation and I absolutely reject the suggested equivalence to male and female segregation in protected spaces.


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    #679
    JoannaJag
    Registered Users Posts: 85 ✭✭JoannaJag


    Silentcorner wrote: »
    It is stated policy of the National Women's Council of Ireland that boys should be socially reconstructed as care givers

    "I had found a statement in a document published by the National Women’s Council, which called for men to be “socially constructed” as carers and women to be “socially constructed” as workers. I rejoined that I did not want to be “socially constructed” by anyone."

    https://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoints/columnists/victoria-white/who-decided-that-career-is-more-important-than-love-and-family-473102.html?&session=PxdrD2ott+MIZ7ISqPbYVKKp8VbNLtTH/Vabfh38ZXk&_ga=2.97561500.2021229891.1590518509-1082183123.1509972388

    There is a consequence for deconstructing gender, it creates mayhem...as and you can see that genie is out of the bottle and threatening womens rights and it will only get worse, one in fifty UK male prisoners are now identifying as women!

    Amazing. Thanks for drawing my attention to this. So because one set of gender stereotypes is harmful we need to adapt to a new set of gender stereotypes that we can then conflate with sex and start identifying in and out of. Got it.


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    #680
    Gruffalux
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,023 ✭✭✭Gruffalux


    iptba wrote: »
    Are you saying female parents are more likely to arrange FGM than male parents? Or that females are more likely to perform FGM than males? Or both? Neither?

    FGM is cultural. That was the necessary safe guarding discrimination implied there. Although to be frank I have read FGM can be more often arranged or performed by females. Munchausens has a sex based epidemiology. So do depression and anxiety. Lots of things lead to sex based presumptions rooted in scientific reality. I do not see the travesty in stating that men commit more violent crime. Are facts an ideological problem?


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    #681
    Gruffalux
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,023 ✭✭✭Gruffalux


    The primogeniture and inheritance type issue is changing, jurisprudence wise. I was recently reading up on it. Though am far too lazy to link now sorry :)


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    #682
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    JoannaJag wrote: »
    Amazing. Thanks for drawing my attention to this. So because one set of gender stereotypes is harmful we need to adapt to a new set of gender stereotypes that we can then conflate with sex and start identifying in and out of. Got it.

    Yup. All gender ideology is based on stereotyping, isn't it? It blows my mind that this is seen as progressive.


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    #683
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »
    This is all true.

    Still though, I do feel frustrated when people cite that self-ID has been in Ireland for five years and there have been "no incidents". Get a group of women together and ask them a few things. Ask them when they first started to receive lewd comments. Ask them what creepy things have happened to them. Ask them if they have ever been sexually assaulted. Hopefully a good smattering of the group will be able to say that nothing has happened to them. But we know that in that group, there will be stories. And we KNOW that not every transgression is reported. I bet most transgressions aren't reported. The woman/girl just carries it. Women and certainly many girls keep things to themselves for many reasons. For girls, embarrassment would be a big factor.


    Ask them things like how many of them have ever been assaulted by a man claiming to be a woman? The answer would likely be zero. If they are asked how many men assaulted them who weren’t claiming to be women, then your point about protecting women from men claiming to be women is immediately undermined by the fact that society does not place restrictions on men based upon their likelihood of attacking anyone.

    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »
    And now with self-ID, there another uncertainty added, the doubt over whether to confront somebody you think shouldn't be in a sex-segregated space. You won't be able to demand to see somebody's GRC so if they say they are allowed to be there, that has to be accepted. A subtle, insidious erosion of a previous protection. I don't want to wait for something awful to happen. I think we need to plan for the worst case scenario. It's more important than feelings.


    You won’t be able to demand to see anyone’s GRC in the same way you already don’t have the authority to demand to see anyone’s birth certificate either. Well, you can demand what you want, and other people can point out the same as I did that you don’t have the authority to make those sorts of demands of anyone. In just the same way as you wouldn’t be comfortable with anyone confronting you, what could you possibly be thinking ever gave you the authority to confront other people in the first place? It’s not even an argument!

    Irish law already permits discrimination based upon certain circumstances, and if organisations such as the HSE which are indeed a public health authority wish to inform the public of issues pertaining to their health, that’s their mandate. There is no erasure of women’s sex based rights, but rather an acknowledgment that some people do not identify themselves as women, and are thereby unlikely to avail of screening which applies to women.

    If you want to make the argument that people’s feelings should be ignored, then that standard equally applies to everyone, including people who imagine they have an authority they never had in the first place.


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    #684
    Gruffalux
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,023 ✭✭✭Gruffalux


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    ...then your point about protecting women from men claiming to be women is immediately undermined by the fact that society does not place restrictions on men based upon their likelihood of attacking anyone.
    e.


    It does though. They are not allowed in me communal ladies dressing room when I am trying on a new frock.


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    #685
    iptba
    Registered Users Posts: 4,878 ✭✭✭iptba


    Gruffalox wrote: »
    I do not see the travesty in stating that men commit more violent crime. Are facts an ideological problem?
    Blacks in America are more likely to commit to commit violent crime. But many would be hesitant to say that. Or Travellers in Ireland. Many people who are happy to say certain negative characteristics are more common in males wouldn’t say that about another group. There seems to be a bias.


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    #686
    Gruffalux
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,023 ✭✭✭Gruffalux


    iptba wrote: »
    Blacks in America are more likely to commit to commit violent crime. But many would be hesitant to say that. Or Travellers in Ireland. Many people who are happy to say certain negative characteristics are more common in males wouldn’t say that about another group. There seems to be a bias.

    Elsewhere on boards very recently I have said the first sentence - I queried BLMs stated aim of disrupting the western centric nuclear family when they would be better off encouraging black men to have close continual contact with their children, thus lessening the numbers of deaths of black men at the hands of police which in my opinion is a function of activity (crime) rather than race.

    Don't worry iptba, I do not hesitate to say all the wrong things to all the wrong people at all the wrong times. :) I am a multi tasking wagon.


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    #687
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    iptba wrote: »
    Blacks in America are more likely to commit to commit violent crime. But many would be hesitant to say that. Or Travellers in Ireland. Many people who are happy to say certain negative characteristics are more common in males wouldn’t say that about another group. There seems to be a bias.

    Well, the main issue is that women are more vulnerable than men, physically. Are different groups of men at a physical disadvantage to each other?


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    #688
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    Gruffalox wrote: »
    It does though. They are not allowed in me communal ladies dressing room when I am trying on a new frock.


    That’s more to do with the policy of the retailer than any legal obligation, in order to protect your modesty. I mean, I completely get where you’re coming from, and my own experience of being directed to the communal fitting rooms in Dunnes Stores when I asked where the men’s fitting rooms were had me feeling just as uncomfortable, but things like that are practical accommodations more than they are anything to do with any legal obligation to protect members of the public from being attacked. In the example I gave though I simply suggested to the shop assistant that I’d purchase and take home the clothes, and return them if I wasn’t satisfied.

    No fuss, no imagining that my rights were being erased or any of the rest of it, just practical considerations based upon acting in good faith as opposed to imagining I was likely to be snagged with a hanger by a woman who took offence to me sharing the same space with her.


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    #689
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,050 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Cupatae wrote: »
    Go way with these bunch of clowns and anyone that supports em, the human race is getting embarrassing now.. some of these people are just mentally ill and get a by on equality, and freedom of speech...

    And so the hatefest continues :rolleyes:

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #690
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    And so the hatefest continues :rolleyes:

    Would you like to engage with any of the cogent points that have been put forth or offer some yourself? I always hear about supposed hatred in these dialogues but the hyperbole only ever seems to come from one side. Almost like there is a lack of substance there and the gap must be filled somehow.


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    #691
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 75,983 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    Cupatae wrote: »
    Go way with these bunch of clowns and anyone that supports em, the human race is getting embarrassing now.. some of these people are just mentally ill and get a by on equality, and freedom of speech...
    Transphobic comments are unacceptable - you are now banned from posting in this thread again


This discussion has been closed.
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