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Jim Meade fights back

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    #32
    Del.Monte
    Registered Users Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Del.Monte


    The forum is also full of people who pretend to favour rail (as long as it's in the Greater Dublin Area) and many of them spouting nonsense about lines that they have never travelled on and know nothing about apart from what they read here or elsewhere on Boards.

    ****



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    #33
    whisky_galore
    Registered Users Posts: 15,827 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    The "Victorian" rail lines cracks me up.
    The many streets in Dublin city centre are outdated "Viking" streets.

    Is the very first line put down, Dublin-Kingstown, is that not "Victorian" at all?


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    #34
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,845 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    whisky_galore wrote: »
    The "Victorian" rail lines cracks me up.

    The many streets in Dublin city centre are outdated "Viking" streets.

    Much of the city centre streets in Dublin either date to the Wide Streets Commission era (18th Century) or are the doing of Dublin Corporation road schemes from the late 30s to 90s.

    The remaining ones are unsuited for vehicular traffic and we're slowly getting there in terms of removing it.
    Del.Monte wrote: »
    spouting nonsense about lines that they have never travelled on and know nothing about apart from what they read here or elsewhere on Boards.

    Which easily describes many of those boostering dead-end rail projects.


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    #35
    Sligo eye
    Closed Accounts Posts: 168 ✭✭Sligo eye


    L1011 wrote: »
    Much of the city centre streets in Dublin either date to the Wide Streets Commission era (18th Century) or are the doing of Dublin Corporation road schemes from the late 30s to 90s.

    The remaining ones are unsuited for vehicular traffic and we're slowly getting there in terms of removing it.



    Which easily describes many of those boostering dead-end rail projects.

    Run out of arguments?


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    #36
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,845 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Sligo eye wrote: »
    Run out of arguments?

    What?


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    #37
    Sligo eye
    Closed Accounts Posts: 168 ✭✭Sligo eye


    L1011 wrote: »
    What?

    Where?


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    #38
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,845 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Sligo eye wrote: »
    Where?

    You aren't even vaguely making sense.


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    #39
    Sligo eye
    Closed Accounts Posts: 168 ✭✭Sligo eye


    L1011 wrote: »
    You aren't even vaguely making sense.

    You are resorting to digs and insults to make your points.


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    #40
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,845 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Sligo eye wrote: »
    You are resorting to digs and insults to make your points.

    Commenting that people push for guaranteed to fail rail projects is neither a dig nor an insult.

    I quoted someone using digs and insults to point out that they applied to those he was attempting to defend. Take your issue up with him.


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    #41
    Sligo eye
    Closed Accounts Posts: 168 ✭✭Sligo eye


    L1011 wrote: »
    Commenting that people push for guaranteed to fail rail projects is neither a dig nor an insult.

    I quoted someone using digs and insults to point out that they applied to those he was attempting to defend. Take your issue up with him.

    The specific project I take it you are referring to is the WRC. I have written at length why I believe that the project should be taken up, but it is part of a far wider proposal to transform how Ireland works and to reduce the dominance of Dublin so that Ireland is balanced out in terms of population and that regional towns and cities become more sustainable.

    Others who oppose the development of the WRC seem to ignore that aspect of the wider project and focus instead on how things are at present.

    I am not in favour of continuing development in Ireland along the lines it is done at present. Growing Dublin into a larger and larger metropolis is not sustainable and will continue to drain our regions outside Dublin.

    That’s why I campaign for rail, and other infrastructure, including better road links.


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    #42
    blackbox
    Registered Users Posts: 4,154 ✭✭✭blackbox


    It's a shame that more freight doesn't travel by rail.

    Irish Rail never really embraced the shipping container.


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    #43
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,845 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Sligo eye wrote: »
    The specific project I take it you are referring to is the WRC. I have written at length why I believe that the project should be taken up, but it is part of a far wider proposal to transform how Ireland works and to reduce the dominance of Dublin so that Ireland is balanced out in terms of population and that regional towns and cities become more sustainable.

    Others who oppose the development of the WRC seem to ignore that aspect of the wider project and focus instead on how things are at present.

    I am not in favour of continuing development in Ireland along the lines it is done at present. Growing Dublin into a larger and larger metropolis is not sustainable and will continue to drain our regions outside Dublin.

    That’s why I campaign for rail, and other infrastructure, including better road links.

    I'm talking about rather more than the WRC. However on that topic, we know that it is the definition of a project that would fail, just as the first section has yet to come anywhere close to meeting its business case. No matter how often people quote figures that include Limerick-Ennis and Galway-Athenry commuters (and the uplift from Oranmore), it doesn't fix the black hole in the middle.

    Providing a rail service that is slower than existing buses does absolutely nothing to improve regional development. If anything, it harms it by siphoning funding away.

    In the case of the WRC, the money would have been better spent properly fixing the flooding issues, providing the Oranmore loop (or doubling), additional stations at Longpavement and Renmore and a higher frequency of service Ennis-Limerick and Athenry-Galway.


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    #44
    Lord Glentoran
    Closed Accounts Posts: 876 ✭✭✭Lord Glentoran


    L1011 wrote: »
    I'm talking about rather more than the WRC. However on that topic, we know [SNIP]

    Who’s “we”? I disassociate myself from that.

    Also buses. You ignore that city centre to city centre Limerick to Galway buses are rarely faster than the train - mainly because of car induced congestion around Galway. It is also curious that anti rail campaigners keep erecting the straw man that pro rail campaigners somehow “want” infrequent and unnecessarily slow railway services.


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    #45
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,845 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Lord Glentoran wrote: »
    Who’s “we”? I disassociate myself from that.

    You can have opinions but they cannot compete with facts. The existing WRC failed to meet its business case. It was the only section found to be viable. Apply that underperformance to the others and they are guaranteed failures.
    Lord Glentoran wrote: »
    Also buses. You ignore that city centre to city centre Limerick to Galway buses are rarely faster than the train - mainly because of car induced congestion around Galway. It is also curious that anti rail campaigners keep erecting the straw man that pro rail campaigners somehow “want” infrequent and unnecessarily slow railway services.

    You are the one creating a strawman here of "anti rail campaigners".

    People who support spending money appropriately are not anti rail campaigners. They are anti something you want. That's different.

    Galway would have rather a lot less car congestion if the money spent on Ennis-Athenry had been used to provide better commuter rail Galway-Athenry with the appropriate extra stations, trackwork, P&R etc. But it wasn't.


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    #46
    Bass Reeves
    Registered Users Posts: 18,208 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    Lord Glentoran wrote: »
    Who’s “we”? I disassociate myself from that.

    Also buses. You ignore that city centre to city centre Limerick to Galway buses are rarely faster than the train - mainly because of car induced congestion around Galway. It is also curious that anti rail campaigners keep erecting the straw man that pro rail campaigners somehow “want” infrequent and unnecessarily slow railway services.

    Limerick Galway fastest train time is 1 hour 55 minutes bus is 1 hour 20 minutes. I say there is about 20 buses a day each way there are only two trains sub two hours. Only people using the train on end to end journeys are OAP and students.

    What is worse neither commuter links Ennis-Limerick and Athenry-Galway have enough frequency to encourage people to use the train. If the money spend on this rail line had been spend on increasing frequency on the commuter lines we might have got much more bang for our money.

    Slava Ukrainii



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    #47
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,991 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Bass Reeves wrote: »
    Limerick Galway fastest train time is 1 hour 55 minutes bus is 1 hour 20 minutes. I say there is about 20 buses a day each way there are only two trains sub two hours.

    advertised journey time and actual journey time are very, very different where road is concerned.
    Bass Reeves wrote: »
    Only people using the train on end to end journeys are OAP and students.

    yeah, sure.
    Bass Reeves wrote: »
    What is worse neither commuter links Ennis-Limerick and Athenry-Galway have enough frequency to encourage people to use the train.

    and that is the fault of irish rail and the NTA who were never going to increase such services until such time as they were forced to do so.
    ennis athenry has nothing to do with that issue.
    Bass Reeves wrote: »
    If the money spend on this rail line had been spend on increasing frequency on the commuter lines we might have got much more bang for our money.

    coulda woulda shoulda.
    it wasn't going to happen.
    at least now there is rail competition on the corridor and we have a blueprint for suburban and intercity services to work on and grow.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #48
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,845 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    end of the road wrote: »
    at least now there is rail competition on the corridor and we have a blueprint for suburban and intercity services to work on and grow.

    A blueprint which reads "this didn't work anywhere near as well as we thought it would".

    If your aim is to actively damage long distance lower demand rail across the country, that's great. But I don't think that is your aim.

    Realistically that section of the WRC being reopened has been a disaster for rail investment due to how badly it went.


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    #49
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,991 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    L1011 wrote: »
    A blueprint which reads "this didn't work anywhere near as well as we thought it would".

    If your aim is to actively damage long distance lower demand rail across the country, that's great. But I don't think that is your aim.

    Realistically that section of the WRC being reopened has been a disaster for rail investment due to how badly it went.

    seems to be working well now.
    sure, it took a long time to grow, but then again it was opened in the height of a severe recession and travel via public transport was down.
    if it wasn't galway to limerick, something else would be used as an excuse not to invest in rail.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #50
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,845 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    end of the road wrote: »
    seems to be working well now.
    sure, it took a long time to grow, but then again it was opened in the height of a severe recession and travel via public transport was down.
    if it wasn't galway to limerick, something else would be used as an excuse not to invest in rail.

    It still hasn't met its original business case. That's not "working well"

    Most of the passenger figures are using the sections that already existed.

    Trying to claim it as a success is farcical. The Docklands service, Dunboyne services and peak PPT services would be a better thing to point to as a success.


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    #51
    Bass Reeves
    Registered Users Posts: 18,208 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    end of the road wrote: »
    advertised journey time and actual journey time are very, very different where road is concerned.



    yeah, sure.



    and that is the fault of irish rail and the NTA who were never going to increase such services until such time as they were forced to do so.
    ennis athenry has nothing to do with that issue.



    coulda woulda shoulda.
    it wasn't going to happen.
    at least now there is rail competition on the corridor and we have a blueprint for suburban and intercity services to work on and grow.

    TBF most bus advertised times are fairly spot on. Limerick and Galway have and are getting more dedicated bus corridors which is helping. On the Limerick side the tunnel under the Shannon virtually guarantees travel times.

    The NTA subsidizes where demand exists. Unfortunately rail is not flexible enough and load factors make it uneconomical. As well purely from economic point of view the subsidity/passenger on the buses (if there is even one as these are commercial routes AFAIK) makes everything to do with bus transportation efficient. For to sustain a regular train service (every hour at peak and two hourly after that) end to end you need 5+k passengers per day minimum and ideally 8-10k/ day. The business volume is not there to sustain that.

    It is questionable even if the case there for end to end rail connection where population numbers are not above 50k that you can provide a service level that will encourage commuters away from cars and busses. By actually splitting the commuting numbers to two public transport systems you prevent either from achieving numbers that will provide a frequency of service that workers need. This is especially am issue where worked are arriving at a destination that is often a 3-5km commute from where there workplace is.

    If we want to get people to use public transport we need a frequency of service. People going to work or about there business. Are not going to swop a 40 minutes car journey for a 90 minutes public transport journey

    Slava Ukrainii



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    #52
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,991 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Bass Reeves wrote: »
    TBF most bus advertised times are fairly spot on. Limerick and Galway have and are getting more dedicated bus corridors which is helping. On the Limerick side the tunnel under the Shannon virtually guarantees travel times.

    The NTA subsidizes where demand exists. Unfortunately rail is not flexible enough and load factors make it uneconomical. As well purely from economic point of view the subsidity/passenger on the buses (if there is even one as these are commercial routes AFAIK) makes everything to do with bus transportation efficient. For to sustain a regular train service (every hour at peak and two hourly after that) end to end you need 5+k passengers per day minimum and ideally 8-10k/ day. The business volume is not there to sustain that.

    It is questionable even if the case there for end to end rail connection where population numbers are not above 50k that you can provide a service level that will encourage commuters away from cars and busses. By actually splitting the commuting numbers to two public transport systems you prevent either from achieving numbers that will provide a frequency of service that workers need. This is especially am issue where worked are arriving at a destination that is often a 3-5km commute from where there workplace is.

    If we want to get people to use public transport we need a frequency of service. People going to work or about there business. Are not going to swop a 40 minutes car journey for a 90 minutes public transport journey


    thankfully reality says the business volumes are there hence rail services exist where they do, and there are some areas where they should be existing.

    by splitting the services into 2 modes you have the potential to target more people and have competition, and make areas along the corridor more attractive places to live.

    we already tried listening to people with the views you hold and it didn't work, yee couldn't deliver.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #53
    Bass Reeves
    Registered Users Posts: 18,208 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    end of the road wrote: »
    thankfully reality says the business volumes are there hence rail services exist where they do, and there are some areas where they should be existing.

    by splitting the services into 2 modes you have the potential to target more people and have competition, and make areas along the corridor more attractive places to live.

    we already tried listening to people with the views you hold and it didn't work, yee couldn't deliver.

    You are incorrect and just waffling figures tell to completely different story to what you make out. Trying to justify a rail line that is at least 30 minutes slower than bus public transport, 30-50%mote expensive and takes less than 50% of the commuter's compared to busses.

    There is no competition between train and bus on that route. Train should be charging a premium and commuters definitely will not pay a premium on that route

    Most passengers on the train end to end are those with a free travel pass going with on an overnight stay or a day trip

    Slava Ukrainii



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    #54
    Sligo eye
    Closed Accounts Posts: 168 ✭✭Sligo eye


    Bass Reeves wrote: »
    You are incorrect and just waffling figures tell to completely different story to what you make out. Trying to justify a rail line that is at least 30 minutes slower than bus public transport, 30-50%mote expensive and takes less than 50% of the commuter's compared to busses.

    There is no competition between train and bus on that route. Train should be charging a premium and commuters definitely will not pay a premium on that route

    Most passengers on the train end to end are those with a free travel pass going with on an overnight stay or a day trip

    Can you produce a breakdown of the passenger demographics that proves your point?


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    #55
    Bass Reeves
    Registered Users Posts: 18,208 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    Sligo eye wrote: »
    Can you produce a breakdown of the passenger demographics that proves your point?

    Just look at the rail timetable and see how useful it is to commuters end to end, Ennis to Limerick, Athenry to Galway on the morning and visa versa in the evening. You cannot use the service if you are a worker as it is BRUTAL

    Slava Ukrainii



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    #56
    Sligo eye
    Closed Accounts Posts: 168 ✭✭Sligo eye


    Bass Reeves wrote: »
    Just look at the rail timetable and see how useful it is to commuters end to end, Ennis to Limerick, Athenry to Galway on the morning and visa versa in the evening. You cannot use the service if you are a worker as it is BRUTAL

    There are trains at both ends of the working day that allow commutes to either Galway or Limerick. There could be more trains on the route, it is far from perfect. However your claims about only free pass holders using the service can’t be substantiated.


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    #57
    Bass Reeves
    Registered Users Posts: 18,208 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    Sligo eye wrote: »
    There are trains at both ends of the working day that allow commutes to either Galway or Limerick. There could be more trains on the route, it is far from perfect. However your claims about only free pass holders using the service can’t be substantiated.

    Incorrect look at the timetable and are there trains that I I'll take commuters to 9 or 9.30 start jobs that finish at 5.30-6 pm. The answer is that there is not unless you are willing to accept bring away from home for the bones of 12+ hours. Both city centers have mostly these jobs

    Slava Ukrainii



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    #58
    Lord Glentoran
    Closed Accounts Posts: 876 ✭✭✭Lord Glentoran


    Sligo eye wrote: »
    There are trains at both ends of the working day that allow commutes to either Galway or Limerick. There could be more trains on the route, it is far from perfect. However your claims about only free pass holders using the service can’t be substantiated.

    Maybe some posters believe it’s only FTP holders using the service so, in their view, they are Completely correct


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    #59
    Sligo eye
    Closed Accounts Posts: 168 ✭✭Sligo eye


    Lord Glentoran wrote: »
    Maybe some posters believe it’s only FTP holders using the service so, in their view, they are Completely correct

    When it comes to the WRC, the burden of proof rests only with supporters. Opponents can state any old rubbish about it without the need to back up anything they say. But this thread isn’t the WRC thread.

    Back to Jim Meade, I see from his weekly pulpit in the Sindo Colm McCarthy is back to his old tricks promoting the use of private cars...


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    #60
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,672 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    Sligo eye wrote: »
    When it comes to the WRC, the burden of proof rests only with supporters. Opponents can state any old rubbish about it without the need to back up anything they say. But this thread isn’t the WRC thread.

    Back to Jim Meade, I see from his weekly pulpit in the Sindo Colm McCarthy is back to his old tricks promoting the use of private cars...

    That's a bit rich when you make up actual numbers using the route!


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    #61
    Bass Reeves
    Registered Users Posts: 18,208 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    Sligo eye wrote: »
    When it comes to the WRC, the burden of proof rests only with supporters. Opponents can state any old rubbish about it without the need to back up anything they say. But this thread isn’t the WRC thread.

    Back to Jim Meade, I see from his weekly pulpit in the Sindo Colm McCarthy is back to his old tricks promoting the use of private cars...

    McCarthy is not promoting private cars. His article was about the effect COVID will have on the workplace. He make the point that all Dublin base tech firms have staff working from home. Some of these are now working from Contenintal Europe. Twitter and Facebook intend to use a working from home model long-term. The point he makes about public transport is that with social distancing it will struggyy until a vaccine is found. There is a huge presumption that we will have a vaccine in 12-18 months (I hope we do) but there is no guarantee and while there is no vaccine people will be reluctant to use public transport. He also make the point that bricks and mortar retailers will struggle because people have adapted to on line retailing.

    On a 1K word article on the effect that the economic shock of COVID, he spends about 60-70 words on transport. He makes the point that it has sidelined the commuting problem for the short-term and that car transport is the only effect social distancing method.

    On the WRC Sligo has a population of about 20k it's about 140 KM from Galway. A train service to Galway is no magic mushroom for Sligo. It just like the assumption that a rail line solve the N/M20 issue. Even if both Sligo and Galway had populations of over 100k it unlikely that a rail link would have the capability of being part of a commuting solution. How many people a day travel from Sligo to Galway. You would need every man women and child in Sligo to travel to Galway every day and return to Galway to have a feasible rail link.

    Slava Ukrainii



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