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Jim Meade fights back

  • 31-05-2020 11:08am
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 168 ✭✭ Sligo eye


    Fair play to Jim Meade the CEO of Iarnród Éireann who was given the right to reply to yet another Colm McCarthy whinge piece regarding rail in last week’s Sindo.

    Obviously buy today’s Sindo to read the piece but the key points are that he states that McCarthy believes that as we did not plan infrastructure and development In the past so we had better not start now.

    Jim Meade also points out in areas where we do have good road and rail links that both transport modes compliment each other.

    Meade also highlights Project Ireland 2040 which looks to shift development away from Dublin over to the other regional cities and points out that rail will play a key role in those cities too.

    Also - the letters page is well worth reading,

    There are two letters, one from a gentleman in Limerick who highlights the real cost of electrification - far less than McCarthy’s inflated claims - and that the passenger numbers for the Limerick - Galway Line are running at half a million per year, far higher than the original business case predicted. His final line is worth repeating:

    “Rail should be a core part of the public transport spine going forward and should be funded accordingly”

    The second letter is from a commuter in Athenry who states that far from closing the Limerick - Galway Line, it is the fastest growing line in the state and that closure would increase the traffic chaos in both cities.

    With more than half a million journies per year it would be madness to close the line and that the line should be extended further.


«13

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 107 ✭✭ 1 sheep2


    McCarthy is such a bore. It enrages me that our media landscape has a place for him to keep bleating his ideological nonsense, largely unchallenged.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,484 ✭✭✭✭ Jamie2k9


    The WRC figures are not accurate, amassing how passengers there before the WRC opened are now part of the business case to inflate the figures!


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,597 ✭✭✭ tdf7187


    McCarthy is a free marketeer Thatcherite fanatic who should not be allowed near public policy or the airwaves.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,912 ✭✭✭ Vic_08


    Sligo eye wrote: »

    Obviously buy today’s Sindo

    I would say do exactly the opposite. the "Sindo" has always been an opinion rag of the worst kind, 10% news, 90% agenda pushing by many many tossers.

    Best thing to do with it is to ignore it as the irrelevance it has always been and certainly, never for any reason, buy the thing.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 876 ✭✭✭ Lord Glentoran


    Vic_08 wrote: »
    I would say do exactly the opposite. the "Sindo" has always been an opinion rag of the worst kind, 10% news, 90% agenda pushing by many many tossers.

    Best thing to do with it is to ignore it as the irrelevance it has always been and certainly, never for any reason, buy the thing.

    No, I reckon Sligo Eye has summarised the article well enough. Just in case the points were missed -
    [Jim Meade] states that McCarthy believes that as we did not plan infrastructure and development In the past so we had better not start now.

    Jim Meade also points out in areas where we do have good road and rail links that both transport modes compliment each other.

    Meade also highlights Project Ireland 2040 which looks to shift development away from Dublin over to the other regional cities and points out that rail will play a key role in those cities too.

    Also - the letters page is well worth reading,

    There are two letters, one from a gentleman in Limerick who highlights the real cost of electrification - far less than McCarthy’s inflated claims - and that the passenger numbers for the Limerick - Galway Line are running at half a million per year, far higher than the original business case predicted. His final line is worth repeating:

    “Rail should be a core part of the public transport spine going forward and should be funded accordingly”

    The second letter is from a commuter in Athenry who states that far from closing the Limerick - Galway Line, it is the fastest growing line in the state and that closure would increase the traffic chaos in both cities.

    With more than half a million journies per year it would be madness to close the line and that the line should be extended further.

    The content is worth a bit more than a dismissive “nothing to see here, move on” comment.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,869 ✭✭✭✭ whisky_galore


    I wish these relics of 1960s economic thought would retire from scribbling in newspapers, perhaps write childrens' books instead.

    Moshers and mosherways good, trains and trams bad.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,781 ✭✭✭ Carawaystick


    Moshers and mosherways good, trains and trams bad.

    Its cheaper and quicker to get from Dublin city centre to Galway by coach since the motorways were built.
    its cheaper and quicker to get from Limerick to Galway by coach since the motorways were built; you can also get a coach when it rains; and, this part is amazing, coaches can go in both directions at the same time, unlike the railway that opened costing a hundred million


    Also goods can be carried at any time of the day, to anywhere there is a road by road.
    rail freight can only go to certain points on the railway network, many stations don't handle freight, and obviously you can't deliver to a field beside a railway, unlike a road.


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,851 ✭✭✭✭ BonnieSituation


    Its cheaper and quicker to get from Dublin city centre to Galway by coach since the motorways were built.
    its cheaper and quicker to get from Limerick to Galway by coach since the motorways were built; you can also get a coach when it rains; and, this part is amazing, coaches can go in both directions at the same time, unlike the railway that opened costing a hundred million


    Also goods can be carried at any time of the day, to anywhere there is a road by road.
    rail freight can only go to certain points on the railway network, many stations don't handle freight, and obviously you can't deliver to a field beside a railway, unlike a road.

    So you're saying we should develop our railways and their freight capacity in tandem with any passenger developments?


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,781 ✭✭✭ Carawaystick


    Cant see rail being useful for a JIT freight delivery
    Cant see rail being good for going up hills
    Can't see the benefit of rail being good for any locallink services

    Can't see how you run intercity trains to Dublin city, rather than the outskirts
    Can't see how you build a railway to link Donegal in a sane way

    Even at the height of the railways here, there were huge roundabout routes to get to places with very short road routes. Kingscourt to Carricmacross, Ballygalley to Omagh, Shillelagh to Tullow, Birr to Banagher, Longford to Roscommon


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,417 ✭✭✭✭ Losty Dublin



    Even at the height of the railways here, there were huge roundabout routes to get to places with very short road routes. Kingscourt to Carricmacross, Ballygalley to Omagh, Shillelagh to Tullow, Birr to Banagher, Longford to Roscommon

    And it was like this with good reason as most of the railway freight flows were laid to carry goods either to a city or to a port for onward distribution. Invariably these branch lines were built to link to a main line that already existed.


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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 21,071 Mod ✭✭✭✭ bk


    Truth of the matter is, rail simply makes no sense at all in rural Ireland. Roads and motorways are FAR more useful unfortunately then rail. That is simply the truth of the era of the automobile.

    That isn't to say that rail doesn't have a very important part to play in our society. Where rail makes sense is as mass transit into and around our cities. Where traffic congestion is so great, that cars and roads become less attractive.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 168 ✭✭ Sligo eye


    bk wrote: »
    Truth of the matter is, rail simply makes no sense at all in rural Ireland. Roads and motorways are FAR more useful unfortunately then rail. That is simply the truth of the era of the automobile.

    That isn't to say that rail doesn't have a very important part to play in our society. Where rail makes sense is as mass transit into and around our cities. Where traffic congestion is so great, that cars and roads become less attractive.

    Have a read of the Project 2040 proposals. If we are going to balance regional development then rail is vital.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 876 ✭✭✭ Lord Glentoran


    Sligo eye wrote: »
    Have a read of the Project 2040 proposals. If we are going to balance regional development then rail is vital.

    All the anti planning/anti rail brigade want is Mosherways, breeze block industrial estates masquerading as “shopping quarters”, and the McMansion on Daddy’s land miles from anywhere else. Then they wonder why regional cities and towns are fooked up with traffic.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,417 ✭✭✭✭ Losty Dublin


    Then they wonder why regional cities and towns are fooked up with traffic.

    Tis obvious why; they didn't build enough mofferwheys.

    To the council chambers chumrades, and don't spare the beige envelopes!


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 21,071 Mod ✭✭✭✭ bk


    You ask people in rural Ireland, do they want a new road/motorway or rail, 99% will say road. They'd laugh at the idea of rail, it is almost useless to them.

    Most people in rural area have a car and it is far faster and more convenient then any train ever could be.

    Honestly I don't get the weird fetish for rail in rural areas some of you have. Trains that only run a few times a day, don't go where you want and take way longer then car/coach.

    The majority of people couldn't care less about which metal box gets them for A to B. Doesn't matter if it is car/train/bus/pane, they just want to get from A to B in the quickest, cheapest and most convenient manner for them.

    In rural area that is the car by a very far distance. In Dublin that it is rail.

    Trying to push rail in rural Ireland is a disaster, because it takes the focus and money off where it is desperately needed, which is urban Ireland.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,576 ✭✭✭✭ end of the road


    it's pushing for rail around urban areas that we are doing, from commuter towns which can then be developed properly to the cities.
    the only rail in real rural ireland is whatever happens to pass through and the few rural stations that are just railheads.

    julian the journalist asange is innocent, free julian the journalist.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,283 ✭✭✭✭ Bass Reeves


    The fact that there is only 500k journey's per anum on the Galway/Limerick line really shows the futility of that line. That less that 10k/ week or less than 1400 journeys /day or less than 700 each way. It about the workload for 4 busses running a 30 miniute service.

    That the reality of even inter city rail in Ireland probably with the exception of the routes to Dublin. And Buses still take as many if not more on them routes. A train needs 5-6 full carriages to be worth subsidizing on inter city routes. Limerick and Galway have population of sub 100k each. To run an effective train service between the two cities you need passengers numbers of 10k/ day between the cities(5k each way) and that is the minimum so that you would get the frequency of service. That 6-8%of the total population that would need to constantly on the move between these cities.

    This actually shows the futility of a new dedicated Cork-Limerick line. Rails funds should be used where there is existing rail lines with possible commuter traffic as trying to use funds to develop commuting where the demand is non existent

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 168 ✭✭ Sligo eye


    bk wrote: »
    You ask people in rural Ireland, do they want a new road/motorway or rail, 99% will say road. They'd laugh at the idea of rail, it is almost useless to them.

    Most people in rural area have a car and it is far faster and more convenient then any train ever could be.

    Honestly I don't get the weird fetish for rail in rural areas some of you have. Trains that only run a few times a day, don't go where you want and take way longer then car/coach.

    The majority of people couldn't care less about which metal box gets them for A to B. Doesn't matter if it is car/train/bus/pane, they just want to get from A to B in the quickest, cheapest and most convenient manner for them.

    In rural area that is the car by a very far distance. In Dublin that it is rail.

    Trying to push rail in rural Ireland is a disaster, because it takes the focus and money off where it is desperately needed, which is urban Ireland.

    Pushing for reducing traffic, connecting towns and allowing balanced regional development isn’t a “weird fetish”. What is weird is that ideas that were thrown out elsewhere in Europe in the 1980s still hold sway with some in Ireland, particularly around mass development of one urban area rather than balanced development of a number of areas.

    Where other countries recognise that carbon emissions have to be reduced and rail invested in, we have these bright sparks in official Ireland who think we can manage all our transport needs by road and two lane toll motorways.

    Sure, we can dismantle the rail network outside Dublin and put all intercity traffic on the motorways, for now.

    But thinking ahead, we will then be faced with traffic gridlock as and when the population expands to the targeted 8/9 million in the Ireland 2040 plan and suddenly someone will say “ why did we scrap all our railways”?

    Frankly bk, you can call all this a weird fetish, but I prefer to call it thinking ahead.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 21,071 Mod ✭✭✭✭ bk


    Sligo eye wrote: »
    Pushing for reducing traffic, connecting towns and allowing balanced regional development isn’t a “weird fetish”. What is weird is that ideas that were thrown out elsewhere in Europe in the 1980s still hold sway with some in Ireland, particularly around mass development of one urban area rather than balanced development of a number of areas.

    Because the reality is these lines being suggested will do nothing to reduce congestion. No one is going to take these trains when even with congestion, cars are still much faster, hell even coaches take half the time.

    Rail lines through low density rural areas have and continue to be closed all throughout Europe. The focus on rail throughout Europe is the same here, primarily mass transit into and aroud cities and yes intercity rail between large cities.
    Sligo eye wrote: »
    Where other countries recognise that carbon emissions have to be reduced and rail invested in, we have these bright sparks in official Ireland who think we can manage all our transport needs by road and two lane toll motorways.

    Diesel trains are hardly a solution to carbon emissions. Cars are going Electric anyway over the next 20 years, so that will sort that issue for the majority of Ireland much faster then building any extensive rail network would.
    Sligo eye wrote: »
    Sure, we can dismantle the rail network outside Dublin and put all intercity traffic on the motorways, for now.

    I didn't say that, I'm talking about reopening idiotic Victorian railways that meander through empty fields in the least densly populated areas of Europe, that run just a few times a day and take half the time as coach.

    I already mentioned that the money wasted on the WRC should have gone on improving the Dublin to Galway intercity line, which would have had far better impact then the WRC.
    Sligo eye wrote: »
    But thinking ahead, we will then be faced with traffic gridlock as and when the population expands to the targeted 8/9 million in the Ireland 2040 plan and suddenly someone will say “ why did we scrap all our railways”?

    Frankly bk, you can call all this a weird fetish, but I prefer to call it thinking ahead.

    The sad reality is the majority of Irelands population will end up in our cities. Urbansiation is a reality that has happened in every country in the world and no country has managed to stop it or reverse it.

    Opening rail lines that are much slower then car or coach simply won't change that.

    If you want to see rail grow and expand, as it has over the past 30 years, then your focus should be on rail investment in our cities, where it actually has a chance of beating the car and actually improving peoples lives and help our country to grow and house those millions of extra people.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,283 ✭✭✭✭ Bass Reeves


    Sligo eye wrote: »
    Pushing for reducing traffic, connecting towns and allowing balanced regional development isn’t a “weird fetish”. What is weird is that ideas that were thrown out elsewhere in Europe in the 1980s still hold sway with some in Ireland, particularly around mass development of one urban area rather than balanced development of a number of areas.

    Where other countries recognise that carbon emissions have to be reduced and rail invested in, we have these bright sparks in official Ireland who think we can manage all our transport needs by road and two lane toll motorways.

    Sure, we can dismantle the rail network outside Dublin and put all intercity traffic on the motorways, for now.

    But thinking ahead, we will then be faced with traffic gridlock as and when the population expands to the targeted 8/9 million in the Ireland 2040 plan and suddenly someone will say “ why did we scrap all our railways”?

    Frankly bk, you can call all this a weird fetish, but I prefer to call it thinking ahead.

    The problem has been we have diversified funds too much. There always has had to be one for everyone in the audience.

    Take the much anticipated FF spatial strategy of the mid noughties. Every lobby group in the country lobbied for there local area to be included. And instead of developing 3-4mson centers outside Dublin we got the wishy-washy idea that everywhere could be developed and no joined up strategy

    There had to be something for the NE do Sligo was going to be a city but really Donegal had to be developed as well so Letterkenny had to be added in. No Athlone could not be stand alone we need Mullingar and Tullamore added in. Tralee and Killarney had to be joined up as a Kerry axis.

    In the middle of it all the primary focus that should have been on Cork-Limerick with a plan to develop on Galway got sidetracked. So we got a motorway and a sh!tty railway (in the sense it was neither here nor there) to Galway and the Limerick to Cork was sidelined and lost in the 2008-2014 recession.

    We are once again at the point where choices need to be made. If we are to tackler climate change and commuting we need to target money at where it is effective not at what seems the optimum choice.

    To get people to commute on public transport while speed of transit(as in the time the journey takes) is important, frequency of service and a service that takes you to where you want to go is more important.

    No point in a train from Charlesville to Limerick city center every 60-90 minutes when you need to get to Raheen, Shannon or Castletroy. Or from Mallow to Cork city center when you need to be in Ballincollig, Blarney or Douglas.

    It would make much more sense to adds third lane on the Limerick-Cork motorway, electricify it for buses and have them doing the last 3-10KM on batteries

    Slava Ukrainii



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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 168 ✭✭ Sligo eye


    bk wrote: »
    Because the reality is these lines being suggested will do nothing to reduce congestion. No one is going to take these trains when even with congestion, cars are still much faster, hell even coaches take half the time.

    Let’s take Tuam to Galway. Cars from Tuam or indeed anywhere into Galway are already gridlocked. More cars won’t solve that problem.
    Rail lines through low density rural areas have and continue to be closed all throughout Europe. The focus on rail throughout Europe is the same here, primarily mass transit into and aroud cities and yes intercity rail between large cities.

    Diesel trains are hardly a solution to carbon emissions. Cars are going Electric anyway over the next 20 years, so that will sort that issue for the majority of Ireland much faster then building any extensive rail network would.


    Rail lines connecting urban and town areas that are then earmarked for expansion and development. You bk are looking at today; I’m looking 10 or even 20 years ahead and want to put a stop to the ad hoc development policies that successive governments have allowed. We need to develop our towns and cities. We have a chance to reduce car dependency why not take that chance?

    As to your wrong headed comment about diesel trains; even IE accept electrification is the future.
    I didn't say that, I'm talking about reopening idiotic Victorian railways that meander through empty fields in the least densly populated areas of Europe, that run just a few times a day and take half the time as coach.

    Official Ireland always has the money to buy land for roads. They never want to spend money buying land for new railways, until that policy is changed the only chance railways have to be reopened in Ireland is to use existing alignments. As to your ideas on timetabling, no one is suggesting a sparse service.

    I do agree with you about trains taking half the time as a coach! ;-)
    I already mentioned that the money wasted on the WRC should have gone on improving the Dublin to Galway intercity line, which would have had far better impact then the WRC.

    With half a million passengers per year, not money wasted and one fifth of the cost of the Tuam bypass which no one here ever gets angry about.

    The sad reality is the majority of Irelands population will end up in our cities. Urbansiation is a reality that has happened in every country in the world and no country has managed to stop it or reverse it.

    Opening rail lines that are much slower then car or coach simply won't change that.

    If you want to see rail grow and expand, as it has over the past 30 years, then your focus should be on rail investment in our cities, where it actually has a chance of beating the car and actually improving peoples lives and help our country to grow and house those millions of extra people.

    I’m very pro rail in cities as well, I think it’s an absolute disaster that IE were stopped from building the extension of heavy rail from Clongriffin to Dublin Airport. That is a prime example of the NTA’s incompetence. Another prime example of NTA incompetence is the farce at Navan where we were told by their hired expert from the states that an express bus rather than a rail connection to M3 Parkway was needed. A final example of NTA incompetence was the scrapping of Dart Underground. All of these projects would transform rail and place it at the heart of the Irish transport network. The NTA sadly are run by bus fetishists who really have no idea how to manage transport, and no vision for the future.

    The railway network has been deliberately underfunded for decades, now we need to crack on and put proper funding back into it and place rail as the spine of our public transport network.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 876 ✭✭✭ Lord Glentoran


    Sligo eye wrote: »
    Pushing for reducing traffic, connecting towns and allowing balanced regional development isn’t a “weird fetish”. What is weird is that ideas that were thrown out elsewhere in Europe in the 1980s still hold sway with some in Ireland, particularly around mass development of one urban area rather than balanced development of a number of areas.

    Where other countries recognise that carbon emissions have to be reduced and rail invested in, we have these bright sparks in official Ireland who think we can manage all our transport needs by road and two lane toll motorways.

    Sure, we can dismantle the rail network outside Dublin and put all intercity traffic on the motorways, for now.

    But thinking ahead, we will then be faced with traffic gridlock as and when the population expands to the targeted 8/9 million in the Ireland 2040 plan and suddenly someone will say “ why did we scrap all our railways”?

    Frankly bk, you can call all this a weird fetish, but I prefer to call it thinking ahead.

    Much of Official Ireland in the 1970s and 1980s would have had seizures at the idea that Ireland should have the same population densities and associated development outside Dublin. The Mosherway and Breeze Block Shops mentality is an outcrop of that. But if the Republic is ever going to have a fully sustainable and growing economy treating the rest of Ireland outside Dublin as a little version of small town America is never going to help. Instead, we collectively will have to see what our European neighbours do. Pinning everything on cars and a token wave at cycling will do nothing to expand this country one iota.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 21,071 Mod ✭✭✭✭ bk


    Much of Official Ireland in the 1970s and 1980s would have had seizures at the idea that Ireland should have the same population densities and associated development outside Dublin. The Mosherway and Breeze Block Shops mentality is an outcrop of that. But if the Republic is ever going to have a fully sustainable and growing economy treating the rest of Ireland outside Dublin as a little version of small town America is never going to help. Instead, we collectively will have to see what our European neighbours do. Pinning everything on cars and a token wave at cycling will do nothing to expand this country one iota.

    Building train lines that run just a few times a day, carry a couple of dozen people and take over twice as long as the coach isn't going to change anything for rural Ireland.

    It is a tough conversation to have, because of course people understandably get emotional about their homes.

    I don't know why you mention other European nations, they have urbanised much earlier and much more extremely then us. If you follow their lead, we will all end up living in our cities, in tall apartment buildings, taking metros to get around.

    The reality is, Dublin didn't kill rural Ireland, rural is killing itself. It is killing itself with the people who decided they wanted to live in a macmasion way outside the town and village and the only way to get their is by car. And then they are all surprised when the local village start dying and the young people are bored and end up wanting to move to the city.

    The reality is most people in rural Ireland don't want rail, they are quiet happy with their cars. Ironically the people in urban Ireland are desperate for more rail.

    Slow crappy Victorian rail lines won't save rural Ireland. No one will use them and they will just suck up the money from Irish Rail that could be used to improve the services where people actually use it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 168 ✭✭ Sligo eye


    bk wrote: »
    Building train lines that run just a few times a day, carry a couple of dozen people and take over twice as long as the coach isn't going to change anything for rural Ireland.

    I see you have completely ignored what I have said in my previous posts and just repeated the same old propaganda you posted earlier!
    It is a tough conversation to have, because of course people understandably get emotional about their homes.

    I don’t recall any suggestion that people leave their homes?
    I don't know why you mention other European nations, they have urbanised much earlier and much more extremely then us. If you follow their lead, we will all end up living in our cities, in tall apartment buildings, taking metros to get around.

    We only need to do that kind of development If we are determined to focus on Dublin rather than the rest of the country.
    The reality is, Dublin didn't kill rural Ireland, rural is killing itself. It is killing itself with the people who decided they wanted to live in a macmasion way outside the town and village and the only way to get their is by car. And then they are all surprised when the local village start dying and the young people are bored and end up wanting to move to the city.

    Rural Ireland has long been regarded as a hinterland and will continue to do so while we focus development on the Greater Dublin area. Ever read John Healy’s books on the subject?
    The reality is most people in rural Ireland don't want rail, they are quiet happy with their cars. Ironically the people in urban Ireland are desperate for more rail.

    I’m not talking about rural areas, though with all due respect you are spinning your responses as if
    I am. What I continue to talk about is the development of Ireland’s regional towns and cities to allow balanced development and to encourage a policy of town based developments for the future rather than scatter gun one off houses in the middle of the countryside. I am not advocating that people who live in one off houses are moved out forcibly as you are trying to spin.
    Slow crappy Victorian rail lines won't save rural Ireland. No one will use them and they will just suck up the money from Irish Rail that could be used to improve the services where people actually use it.

    Yes you are right on that point; which is why I advocate a change of policy to allow the construction of new direct rail lines but in the meantime we need to rebalance development to enable larger, more vibrant towns that will encourage young people and others to stay, while being connected right across the country.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 876 ✭✭✭ Lord Glentoran


    bk wrote: »
    Building train lines that run just a few times a day, carry a couple of dozen people and take over twice as long as the coach isn't going to change anything for rural Ireland.

    It is a tough conversation to have, because of course people understandably get emotional about their homes.

    I don't know why you mention other European nations, they have urbanised much earlier and much more extremely then us. If you follow their lead, we will all end up living in our cities, in tall apartment buildings, taking metros to get around.

    The reality is, Dublin didn't kill rural Ireland, rural is killing itself. It is killing itself with the people who decided they wanted to live in a macmasion way outside the town and village and the only way to get their is by car. And then they are all surprised when the local village start dying and the young people are bored and end up wanting to move to the city.

    The reality is most people in rural Ireland don't want rail, they are quiet happy with their cars. Ironically the people in urban Ireland are desperate for more rail.

    Slow crappy Victorian rail lines won't save rural Ireland. No one will use them and they will just suck up the money from Irish Rail that could be used to improve the services where people actually use it.

    Well, quite. Nobody who advocates rail expansion advocates a model of rail services designed to fail. Unless you’ve just erected a straw man argument for the sake of it.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 61,767 Mod ✭✭✭✭ L1011


    Well, quite. Nobody who advocates rail expansion advocates a model of rail services designed to fail. Unless you’ve just erected a straw man argument for the sake of it.

    However have you convinced yourself of that? Just look here. People repeatedly advocate services on the sections of the WRC that completely failed their business cases when the one that scraped it is massively underperforming


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 876 ✭✭✭ Lord Glentoran


    L1011 wrote: »
    However have you convinced yourself of that? Just look here. People repeatedly advocate services on the sections of the WRC that completely failed their business cases when the one that scraped it is massively underperforming

    I’m struggling to make sense of what you are saying here - the only thing I can think of is that no matter what numbers use any railway in Ireland, it will never be good enough for those who want the railway to play the smallest role possible just short of its extinction.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,484 ✭✭✭✭ Jamie2k9


    Sligo eye wrote: »
    Let’s take Tuam to Galway. Cars from Tuam or indeed anywhere into Galway are already gridlocked. More cars won’t solve that problem.

    Either will WCR to Tuam...
    ail lines connecting urban and town areas that are then earmarked for expansion and development. You bk are looking at today; I’m looking 10 or even 20 years ahead and want to put a stop to the ad hoc development policies that successive governments have allowed. We need to develop our towns and cities. We have a chance to reduce car dependency why not take that chance?

    As to your wrong headed comment about diesel trains; even IE accept electrification is the future.

    No they don't.
    Official Ireland always has the money to buy land for roads. They never want to spend money buying land for new railways, until that policy is changed the only chance railways have to be reopened in Ireland is to use existing alignments. As to your ideas on timetabling, no one is suggesting a sparse service.

    Not the case, if proposed railways carried what typical Intercity routes do today then there might be a case to invest.
    With half a million passengers per year, not money wasted and one fifth of the cost of the Tuam bypass which no one here ever gets angry about.

    The half a million includes the 250k that are part of Galway-Dublin and Ennis-Limerick sections.
    I’m very pro rail in cities as well, I think it’s an absolute disaster that IE were stopped from building the extension of heavy rail from Clongriffin to Dublin Airport. That is a prime example of the NTA’s incompetence. Another prime example of NTA incompetence is the farce at Navan where we were told by their hired expert from the states that an express bus rather than a rail connection to M3 Parkway was needed. A final example of NTA incompetence was the scrapping of Dart Underground. All of these projects would transform rail and place it at the heart of the Irish transport network. The NTA sadly are run by bus fetishists who really have no idea how to manage transport, and no vision for the future.

    The railway network has been deliberately underfunded for decades, now we need to crack on and put proper funding back into it and place rail as the spine of our public transport network.

    Stopped form building a slow and low capacity rail service to the Airport on a network that has no capacity for 50% of the route.

    The NTA are a disgrace for not adopting an IE attitude of sure it will do!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 168 ✭✭ Sligo eye


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    Either will WCR to Tuam...



    No they don't.



    Not the case, if proposed railways carried what typical Intercity routes do today then there might be a case to invest.



    The half a million includes the 250k that are part of Galway-Dublin and Ennis-Limerick sections.



    Stopped form building a slow and low capacity rail service to the Airport on a network that has no capacity for 50% of the route.

    The NTA are a disgrace for not adopting an IE attitude of sure it will do!

    Jamie2k Jim Meade is on record saying future rail vehicles will be electric, or hybrid electric and diesel or electric with batteries.

    Whatever way Diesel will be phased out.

    The NTA are a disgrace; I can agree with you on that.


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  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 61,767 Mod ✭✭✭✭ L1011


    I’m struggling to make sense of what you are saying here - the only thing I can think of is that no matter what numbers use any railway in Ireland, it will never be good enough for those who want the railway to play the smallest role possible just short of its extinction.

    I'm pointing out that you were saying absolute nonsense.

    This forum is full of people pushing for investment in dead end, pointless rail projects that they either like the idea of (and won't use) or live near (and are pushing it out of personal interest). Pushing projects made to fail - exactly what you claimed doesn't happen.


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