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Madeleine McCann

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  • #6242
    Neyite
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,948 ✭✭✭✭Neyite


    cgcsb wrote: »
    Well I don't know, but the simplest, low-drama, explanation is maddie wanders out in search of parents, meets a local drunk driver, the driver panics, realises nobody is around to witness and gets rid of the evidence. This is the simplest scenario and the only realistic scenario that involves only 1 person and leaves not a shred of evidence in the flat.

    But I also can't get away from the parents being in some way involved given the general carry on of them or perhaps one of the parent's many friends. Predators usually pick a child they've met before or one that they see all the time. If we imagine the parents done it for a moment, the biggest problem with that scenario is how would they have gotten rid of the body, they would have had to call in local help somehow

    A lone predator would have to be very very skilled to do it, he'd have to know the children wouldn't scream and attract attention(i.e. he'd have to know they were out for the count) and also extremely lucky, how would an abductor, no matter how forensic in his planning know that he wouldn't happen to walk past several witnesses between the hotel and the get away vehicle.


    I've worked in hotels and gossip about guest's behaviour would always be quick to spread, so something like a group of guests habitually left their children unattended in the evenings to socialise in the bar would be known from the bar staff to reception and right down to kitchen staff. I often used to tell family a weird /annoying guest anecdote, so it's plausible that someone would go home and say to a relative "You'll never guess what this group of English tourists do - they leave their kids every night and go drinking at the bar" and they have no idea that the person they told decided it was the ideal opportunity to abduct a child.

    Despite the denials of the group, it WAS unusual at the time to leave children without a sitter. Even more so, it's unthinkable to most people that you'd leave your babies and a pre-schooler in an unlocked foreign apartment and go sit out of sight and earshot drinking and eating so it would be gossiped about amongst staff.


  • #6243
    Rock77
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,123 ✭✭✭Rock77


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    Neyite wrote: »
    I've worked in hotels and gossip about guest's behaviour would always be quick to spread, so something like a group of guests habitually left their children unattended in the evenings to socialise in the bar would be known from the bar staff to reception and right down to kitchen staff. I often used to tell family a weird /annoying guest anecdote, so it's plausible that someone would go home and say to a relative "You'll never guess what this group of English tourists do - they leave their kids every night and go drinking at the bar" and they have no idea that the person they told decided it was the ideal opportunity to abduct a child.

    Despite the denials of the group, it WAS unusual at the time to leave children without a sitter. Even more so, it's unthinkable to most people that you'd leave your babies and a pre-schooler in an unlocked foreign apartment and go sit out of sight and earshot drinking and eating so it would be gossiped about amongst staff.

    I’m sure this has been talked about in thread before so my apologies I’m new here!

    I can honestly say I would never leave the house if my kids were in bed never mind an apt in a foreign country and that’s just because I’d be afraid of them waking up and panicking because I wasn’t there.


  • #6244
    cgcsb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,032 ✭✭✭✭cgcsb


    Something Else
    Neyite wrote: »
    I've worked in hotels and gossip about guest's behaviour would always be quick to spread, so something like a group of guests habitually left their children unattended in the evenings to socialise in the bar would be known from the bar staff to reception and right down to kitchen staff. I often used to tell family a weird /annoying guest anecdote, so it's plausible that someone would go home and say to a relative "You'll never guess what this group of English tourists do - they leave their kids every night and go drinking at the bar" and they have no idea that the person they told decided it was the ideal opportunity to abduct a child.

    Despite the denials of the group, it WAS unusual at the time to leave children without a sitter. Even more so, it's unthinkable to most people that you'd leave your babies and a pre-schooler in an unlocked foreign apartment and go sit out of sight and earshot drinking and eating so it would be gossiped about amongst staff.

    Yes I suppose that's possible but such a predator would have to do a bit of leg work to confirm gossip was accurate. They'd still not know the door was unlocked and they still would have a potentially screaming child to deal with and the possibility of running into witnesses.


  • #6245
    cgcsb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,032 ✭✭✭✭cgcsb


    Something Else
    Rock77 wrote: »
    I’m sure this has been talked about in thread before so my apologies I’m new here!

    I can honestly say I would never leave the house if my kids were in bed never mind an apt in a foreign country and that’s just because I’d be afraid of them waking up and panicking because I wasn’t there.

    :pac::pac::pac::pac:

    That's all this thread is about, be prepared to have 20 posters tell you that's grand carry on.


  • #6246
    Rock77
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,123 ✭✭✭Rock77


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    cgcsb wrote: »
    :pac::pac::pac::pac:

    That's all this thread is about, be prepared to have 20 posters tell you that's grand carry on.

    Lol..

    I have always and still do think the child was abducted and I feel so sorry for the parents but sorry there’s no way I would leave my child alone like they did.


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  • #6247
    Neyite
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,948 ✭✭✭✭Neyite


    Rock77 wrote: »
    I’m sure this has been talked about in thread before so my apologies I’m new here!

    I can honestly say I would never leave the house if my kids were in bed never mind an apt in a foreign country and that’s just because I’d be afraid of them waking up and panicking because I wasn’t there.

    I've said earlier in the thread that I wouldn't even go putting out the bins at home leaving him on his own in the apartment when my son was at that age - just because toddlers are unpredictable and able to get into something dangerous /destructive the minute your back is turned!

    There's certainly a kind of cultural element to it though - in the UK the likes of Butlins and other such holiday camps used to operate a listening service for guests in the 40s and 50s. Staff would patrol around the chalets and if they heard a child crying they'd notify the entertainment hall where the parents would be socialising. But I think that died off in the 70s or earlier, and I'm not sure that it happened in Irish holiday camps like Mosney but I'd guess it did. In the late 80s (Ireland) though I would have been babysitting as would all my peers. Young as we were at 12 or 13, we had enough cop on to keep the door locked, and phone the local pub to summon the parents if there were any issues. While things have changed and I'd never leave a 12 or 13yo babysitting now, the argument that it was a perfectly normal thing to do in 2007 simply does not wash.

    Add into that, we tend to be more cautious on holidays - you'd split up and hide holiday cash, put passports and jewellery in the room safe and it doesn't make sense that you would leave the room unlocked. Yet they did.

    The other thing that struck me was that they all left their kids that way. There were 4 couples in the group and one older woman who was the mother of one of adults. Collectively they had 8 children. One couple (Tanner/O'Brien) alternated during dinner that night because one of their children was sick so one of them stayed with their children that night - but there's no mention that they staggered dinner that way on other nights. The Oldfields had one child it seems. The Paynes who had two girls had a baby monitor that meant they could listen out for them at least. With the exception of the Paynes who at least had a baby monitor the group were in the habit of leaving their children unsupervised each evening. I'm not sure that I believe that they checked on the children as frequently as they claimed, and when they did, they didn't do it consistently - Oldfield just listened at her door at 21.30 and didn't actually see Madeline in bed, just the twins. Her absence was discovered at 2200 by Kate. The previous check was supposedly Gerry McCann 30 mins into their dinner -at 21.05, 30 mins before Oldfield's. I can't imagine that if she was missing then, that he wouldn't have raised the alarm.

    So she was either abducted during that hour or they were fibbing about the frequency of checks on the children, which I think is more likely to be the case, and probably why the authorities became suspicious that something wasn't quite adding up and the basis for them being considered suspects.


  • #6248
    iamwhoiam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,249 ✭✭✭✭iamwhoiam


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    cgcsb wrote: »
    :pac::pac::pac::pac:

    That's all this thread is about, be prepared to have 20 posters tell you that's grand carry on.

    Quote me 20 posters who think its grand carry on . The vast majority know it was not .


  • #6249
    cgcsb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,032 ✭✭✭✭cgcsb


    Something Else
    iamwhoiam wrote: »
    Quote me 20 posters who think its grand carry on . The vast majority know it was not .

    lighten up


  • #6250
    Neyite
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,948 ✭✭✭✭Neyite


    cgcsb wrote: »
    Yes I suppose that's possible but such a predator would have to do a bit of leg work to confirm gossip was accurate. They'd still not know the door was unlocked and they still would have a potentially screaming child to deal with and the possibility of running into witnesses.


    True. We are assuming that the predator made one visit -the abduction one- though. The group had 4 days left in their holiday I think? So if they were doing that all week there was plenty of time for someone to try a patio door, or observe the group's habits and maybe go back better prepared another night. And maybe they were observed, or the hotel rooms were tried at night prior to the abduction.



    Out of the 8 children, Madeline was the oldest. The twins were 20 months, the Oldfields baby was 22 months, Tanner/O'Brien's kids were 3 and 1yr old. I don't know the age of the Paynes two children but they were younger than Madeline. That's a lot of unattended toddlers, all but two on the ground floor apartments, which are much easier to break into. Ironically the ones who had the safer apartment in that regard - the Payne's - as it was located on the first floor, were the ones who had a baby monitor.


  • #6251
    cgcsb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,032 ✭✭✭✭cgcsb


    Something Else
    The cultural gap certainly does play a role also. Portugal is a Catholic family orientated society. The McCanns themselves are Catholics yet they indulged in upper class English culture within which child abandonment is part of the scenery. No doubt the police and local media were flummoxed by this.


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  • #6252
    bladespin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,432 ✭✭✭bladespin


    Something Else
    cgcsb wrote: »
    The cultural gap certainly does play a role also. Portugal is a Catholic family orientated society. The McCanns themselves are Catholics yet they indulged in upper class English culture within which child abandonment is part of the scenery. No doubt the police and local media were flummoxed by this.

    The Portuguese aren't as judgmental as you might think.
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  • #6253
    cgcsb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,032 ✭✭✭✭cgcsb


    Something Else
    bladespin wrote: »
    The Portuguese aren't as judgmental as you might think.

    Judgmental now there's an interesting word. I wouldn't use it to describe someone who criticises routine child abandonment / endangerment, especially in the McCann case where the only rationale for the abandonment of the todler and 2 babies was a wealthy couple saving £30 on a babysitter while they got juiced. They could have even had their friend's children stay over and split the fee between the parents if things were that tight.

    How do you view people who condemn other forms of child abuse? Are people who condemn child genital mutilation judgmental for example? Or what about people who oppose forcing marriages on children? I don't see how you can castigate someone who would condemn flinging a toddler and 2 babies to the four sheets of the wind, and declaring 'come what may', as being 'judgmental'.


  • #6254
    bladespin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,432 ✭✭✭bladespin


    Something Else
    cgcsb wrote: »
    Judgmental now there's an interesting word.

    Hmm, I tend not to feed trolls but I make the odd exception.

    It really is an interesting word if that's what you're into.

    In the case of the McCanns, I doubt very much if the police and media were as flummoxed as you make out, by all accounts they rushed to the stricken parents aid without judgement and the relationship soured there after.

    I've already voiced my opinion on what happened, if you read it I doubt you'd be asking.
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  • #6255
    Rock77
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,123 ✭✭✭Rock77


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    bladespin wrote: »
    Hmm, I tend not to feed trolls but I make the odd exception.

    It really is an interesting word if that's what you're into.

    In the case of the McCanns, I doubt very much if the police and media were as flummoxed as you make out, by all accounts they rushed to the stricken parents aid without judgement and the relationship soured there after.

    I've already voiced my opinion on what happened, if you read it I doubt you'd be asking.

    Do you mind me asking what you think happened?

    I haven’t studied up on the case facts but I don’t really believe or want to believe the parents did it.


  • #6256
    dubstarr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,762 ✭✭✭✭dubstarr


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    I dont think the parents had anything to do with it.

    But what makes it iffy is
    They where further away than they claimed
    They didnt check the kids as often as claimed
    I dont think it was an opportunist either.

    I think someone was keeping watch,knew the routines and went for it.

    The thing that really upsets me,is Madeleine woke the previous night,was upset.And asked her parents why they didnt come when she called.Thats heartbreaking,


  • #6257
    TheW1zard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,346 ✭✭✭TheW1zard


    Accident happened, parents hid body
    Kate said the shutter was open and She felt the draught. In the crime scene photos the shutter is closed, and it was only her fingerprints on it.
    So did She close the shutter?


  • #6258
    callmehal
    Site Banned Posts: 461 ✭✭callmehal


    Accident happened, parents hid body
    dubstarr wrote: »
    I dont think the parents had anything to do with it.

    But what makes it iffy is
    They where further away than they claimed
    They didnt check the kids as often as claimed
    I dont think it was an opportunist either.

    I think someone was keeping watch,knew the routines and went for it.

    The thing that really upsets me,is Madeleine woke the previous night,was upset.And asked her parents why they didnt come when she called.Thats heartbreaking,

    What did they give her the next night so she wouldn't wake as easily?


  • #6259
    callmehal
    Site Banned Posts: 461 ✭✭callmehal


    Accident happened, parents hid body
    TheW1zard wrote: »
    Kate said the shutter was open and She felt the draught. In the crime scene photos the shutter is closed, and it was only her fingerprints on it.
    So did She close the shutter?

    At best, it looks like they were lying about the times they were checking on the kids and somehow tried to cover up their neglect out of shame.


  • #6260
    TheW1zard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,346 ✭✭✭TheW1zard


    Accident happened, parents hid body
    Why didn't the kids wake up when She started screaming, or when the police came?


  • #6261
    limnam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,345 ✭✭✭limnam


    TheW1zard wrote: »
    Why didn't the kids wake up when She started screaming, or when the police came?


    There's no point probing the endless amount of wrong.


    There's a perfectly simple explanation for anything you can find.


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  • #6262
    limnam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,345 ✭✭✭limnam


    callmehal wrote: »
    At best, it looks like they were lying about the times they were checking on the kids and somehow tried to cover up their neglect out of shame.


    Would shame be on your mind with a brain full of thoughts of your only daughter been potentially raped by a peado gang?


    Wouldn't enter mine.


    But we don't know how we'd react blah blah blah


    Oh look! my jogging shoes.


  • #6263
    TheW1zard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,346 ✭✭✭TheW1zard


    Accident happened, parents hid body
    limnam wrote: »
    There's no point probing the endless amount of wrong.


    There's a perfectly simple explanation for anything you can find.

    Im alluding to the kids being drugged. Why do you think the kids didnt wake up?


  • #6264
    limnam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,345 ✭✭✭limnam


    TheW1zard wrote: »
    Im alluding to the kids being drugged. Why do you think the kids didnt wake up?


    I've no fcking clue.


    But if you try to bring this up there be a barge of what people regard as perfectly good reasons.


    There's no reason I know of, not with that level of noise and shenanigans.


    each child is different


    some kids are heavy sleepers


    There's a never ending list of excuses for it.


    Most people I know are afraid to whisper for the fear of them waking.


  • #6265
    Rock77
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,123 ✭✭✭Rock77


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    To be fair none of us know how we would react if we thought our daughter was kidnapped by a paedo gang...

    It would make sense that the parents were trying to cover up leaving the kids alone for long periods of time, I don’t think that’s too much of a stretch.


  • #6266
    Rock77
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,123 ✭✭✭Rock77


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    limnam wrote: »
    I've no fcking clue.


    But if you try to bring this up there be a barge of what people regard as perfectly good reasons.


    There's no reason I know of, not with that level of noise and shenanigans.


    each child is different


    some kids are heavy sleepers


    There's a never ending list of excuses for it.


    Most people I know are afraid to whisper for the fear of them waking.

    Seriously, this thread is getting to you... you just argued with yourself for three posts in a row!


  • #6267
    limnam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,345 ✭✭✭limnam


    Rock77 wrote: »
    Seriously, this thread is getting to you... you just argued with yourself for three posts in a row!


    That's how well I know the answers ;)


  • #6268
    limnam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,345 ✭✭✭limnam


    Rock77 wrote: »
    To be fair none of us know how we would react if we thought our daughter was kidnapped by a paedo gang...

    It would make sense that the parents were trying to cover up leaving the kids alone for long periods of time, I don’t think that’s too much of a stretch.


    Covering up your shame at the cost of impacting an investigation into the abduction of your child?


    That's pretty messed up for cool calm and collective Dr's


  • #6269
    TheW1zard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,346 ✭✭✭TheW1zard


    Accident happened, parents hid body
    limnam wrote: »
    That's how well I know the answers ;)

    You didnt answer, well you did, you said you dont know.
    I reckon its because the kids were drugged.
    What do other people think?


  • #6270
    TheW1zard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,346 ✭✭✭TheW1zard


    Accident happened, parents hid body
    TheW1zard wrote: »
    Kate said the shutter was open and She felt the draught. In the crime scene photos the shutter is closed, and it was only her fingerprints on it.
    So did She close the shutter?

    Can anyone explain this?

    Theres a few things i cant get past, this being one of them.


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  • #6271
    limnam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,345 ✭✭✭limnam


    TheW1zard wrote: »
    Can anyone explain this?

    Theres a few things i cant get past, this being one of them.


    I think she was telling lies.


    The wind speed that night was not enough to cause "swooshing" or door bangs as she claimed.


    In the picture it's clearly behind the bed so the curtains couldn't blow as she described.


    What others will tell you is the time between the photo been taken was so long anything could have happened between been open and closed.


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