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George Floyd dies after police knelt on his neck (MOD NOTE IN POST #1)

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Comments

  • #6482
    cdeb
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,453 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    Overheal wrote: »
    No other studies show they are about 20% more likely to be stopped in disproportion. And the Stanford study underscores the point.
    20% more likely to be stopped?

    That's not actually very much given that demographic's increased crime rate. Is it really an issue? If it were many times more likely, maybe - but 20%?

    I've also pointed out a big flaw in the Stanford study, which it acknowledges itself.

    The more statistics emerge about this, the less inclined I am to believe that there's a serious race problem here.


  • #6483
    Overheal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    cdeb wrote: »
    It in fact didn't mention race at all. It's just 75% of all police stops were unjustified.

    Fairly big oversight there on your part.

    It did say that the PD stopped black people out of proportion to their population - but again, is it in proportion to their crime rate? If so, I would argue that's not unexpected.

    Similarly, the Stanford article actually includes this part on how their findings may not be race-related (which is pretty much the same point I've been arguing all along) -



    Emphasis is mine.

    So you can see why I'm wary of people bandying stats about willy-nilly

    The bolded bit in the Stanford study was just one of the graphs. They acknowledged this point and so looked at the data from many other angles. Take the whole article, don’t cherry-pick it..


  • #6484
    Overheal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    cdeb wrote: »
    20% more likely to be stopped?

    That's not actually very much given that demographic's increased crime rate. Is it really an issue? If it were many times more likely, maybe - but 20%?

    I've also pointed out a big flaw in the Stanford study, which it acknowledges itself.

    The more statistics emerge about this, the less inclined I am to believe that there's a serious race problem here.

    Again it’s not a big flaw if you aren’t a disingenuous cherry picker. Look at the whole findings of the project!


  • #6485
    cdeb
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,453 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    Overheal wrote: »
    The bolded bit in the Stanford study was just one of the graphs.
    No - it was a generic comment on hit rates attributable to each of the stats which had preceded (stop rate, search rate, charge rate), which are worked out the same way.


  • #6486
    cdeb
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,453 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    Overheal wrote: »
    Again it’s not a big flaw if you aren’t a disingenuous cherry picker. Look at the whole findings of the project!
    You didn't link the "other studies" which mentioned a 20% rate. Kinda hard to look at them.

    Though given your poor grasp of statistics to date, I think my original view would still be valid anyway.

    And "disingenuous"? You're the one who quoted the rate at which black people are stopped by police as evidence of racial bias, and when challenged realised it was actually all people with no mention of race...


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  • #6487
    Outlaw Pete
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,423 ✭✭✭✭Outlaw Pete


    joe40 wrote: »
    Even just look at the video posted above, are you seriously going to tell me if a heavily armed black man walked around like that in a tense situation he would simply be told to go home.

    Cant't get more tense then around the KKK:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5_8WjNf4GI



    How about a situation were a black armed gang are chanting "Oink, oink; bang, bang":




    There seems to be a determined attempt to show that black people are being oppressed in America and that there is systemic racism in the police force and it really isn't helping. There absolutely should be marches on the street right now, but they shouldn't be about black lives mattering, they should be about police brutality as a whole, as that is what the real issue is.

    Unfortunately though not all deaths at the hands of the police in the States are reported in the same amplified way, and that just results in people understandably feeling 'hunted' (as one politician remarked) and so what is needed is the issue to be reported on in a responsible way but it won't be as its become a hot button topic to be exploited by politicians and this brutal killing of George Floyd is shamefully being used as just that.

    The death of David Dorn and others who have either been killed or injured after having got caught up in the protests (in one way or another) are proof positive of just how important the role of news reporting is in society and the impact that it can have, as if this killing had been reported correctly, it would never have led to such violence and destruction. For the MSM to immediately lead with this story as if racist motivation was a given is a scandal. People are dead because of it.


  • #6488
    YFlyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,713 ✭✭✭YFlyer


    Tasfasdf wrote: »
    Did they survey the whole country or just a few Americans.

    Click on the link in the 1st paragraph.


  • #6489
    Tell me how
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,155 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    Outlaw Pete wrote: »

    The death of David Dorn and others who have either been killed or injured after having got caught up in the protests (in one way or another) are proof positive of just how important the role of news reporting is in society and the impact that it can have, as if this killing had been reported correctly, it would never have led to such violence and destruction. For the MSM to immediately lead with this story as if racist motivation was a given is a scandal. People are dead because of it.

    What did you make of Laura Ingraham's comments on Drew Brees versus her comments on Lebron James?


  • #6490
    circadian
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,611 ✭✭✭circadian


    Outlaw Pete wrote: »
    Cant't get more tense then around the KKK:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5_8WjNf4GI



    How about a situation were a black armed gang are chanting "Oink, oink; bang, bang":




    There seems to be a determined attempt to show that black people are being oppressed in America and that there is systemic racism in the police force and it really isn't helping. There absolutely should be marches on the street right now, but they shouldn't be about black lives mattering, they should be about police brutality as a whole, as that is what the real issue is.

    Unfortunately though not all deaths at the hands of the police in the States are reported in the same amplified way, and that just results in people understandably feeling 'hunted' (as one politician remarked) and so what is needed is the issue to be reported on in a responsible way but it won't be as its become a hot button topic to be exploited by politicians and this brutal killing of George Floyd is shamefully being used as just that.

    The death of David Dorn and others who have either been killed or injured after having got caught up in the protests (in one way or another) are proof positive of just how important the role of news reporting is in society and the impact that it can have, as if this killing had been reported correctly, it would never have led to such violence and destruction. For the MSM to immediately lead with this story as if racist motivation was a given is a scandal. People are dead because of it.

    People are dead as a result of a corrupt and unaccountable police force.


  • #6491
    owlbethere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,329 ✭✭✭owlbethere


    Overheal wrote: »
    What happened here
    That looks appalling. If you see the man in the wheelchair. He's white. The image does show the police brutality that is talked about but I don't think the police brutality is race related. So the world getting their knickers in a twist for a sad ending to a black thug, is not racism.


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  • #6492
    Overheal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    cdeb wrote: »
    You didn't link the "other studies" which mentioned a 20% rate. Kinda hard to look at them.

    Though given your poor grasp of statistics to date, I think my original view would still be valid anyway.

    And "disingenuous"? You're the one who quoted the rate at which black people are stopped by police as evidence of racial bias, and when challenged realised it was actually all people with no mention of race...

    20% comes from the Stanford study...

    https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/21/us/police-stops-race-stanford-study-trnd/index.html

    And that’s how I know you didn’t read it


  • #6493
    Overheal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    owlbethere wrote: »
    That looks appalling. If you see the man in the wheelchair. He's white. The image does show the police brutality that is talked about but I don't think the police brutality is race related. So the world getting their knickers in a twist for a sad ending to a black thug, is not racism.

    One does not negate the other. You can have racism and bad policing both.

    For example: a 2019 investigation showed that Minneapolis PD had not bothered to test rape kits for 1,700 victims over the last 30 years.


  • #6494
    weldoninhio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,311 ✭✭✭✭weldoninhio


    Tadeo Fit Calf wrote: »
    It is certain that the policeman killed Floyd. It's not certain that he was racist.

    But that's not even that relevant. He's just one person. It seems pretty clear that he thought he could kneel on his neck without consequences. I can't see him feeling safe to do that to a white person. That points to institutional systemic racism. And that is a big deal.

    I guess people will point to the old guy being pushed and stuff like that. That was unnecessary but doesn't remotely compare.

    You haven’t heard of Tony Timpa?? Almost the exact same thing happened, except Timpa had called the cops himself and hadn’t broken any law.


  • #6495
    owlbethere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,329 ✭✭✭owlbethere


    Overheal wrote: »
    One does not negate the other. You can have racism and bad policing both.

    For example: a 2019 investigation showed that Minneapolis PD had not bothered to test rape kits for 1,700 victims over the last 30 years.

    That is a valid point.


  • #6496
    Overheal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Reports from LA protester interment of sexual assault performed by LAPD. Many more accounts online of what happened with the Jackie Robinson stadium debacle. 5+ hours for some people with no restroom access, a lesbian who was groped by 2 officers, another who was told “you have no rights here.” Through Facebook and twitter testimonials.


  • #6497
    joe40
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,813 ✭✭✭joe40


    circadian wrote: »
    People are dead as a result of a corrupt and unaccountable police force.

    Exactly, if the BLM protests result in better policing, better oversight, better training (big if, I know) then that has to be a benefit for everyone.
    Especially poorer communities regardless of race or ethnicity.

    This constant militarisation of police, as their only response to crime is creating a vicious circle.

    Force by the police, even lethal force, is necessary sometimes, but they have to exercise that force with care.


  • #6498
    cdeb
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,453 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    Overheal wrote: »
    20% comes from the Stanford study...

    https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/21/us/police-stops-race-stanford-study-trnd/index.html

    And that’s how I know you didn’t read it
    You mentioned "other studies" which you didn't cite.

    The same Stanford study explains how you could pull a group of people over 20% more often without any sort of bias at all.

    So the point doesn't stand up.


  • #6499
    biko
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,060 ✭✭✭✭biko


    Outlaw Pete wrote: »
    There seems to be a determined attempt to show that black people are being oppressed in America and that there is systemic racism in the police force and it really isn't helping. There absolutely should be marches on the street right now, but they shouldn't be about black lives mattering, they should be about police brutality as a whole, as that is what the real issue is.
    US police are actually less inclined to shoot at black suspects




    https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/1745-9133.12187
    We found that, despite clear evidence of implicit bias against Black suspects, officers were slower to shoot armed Black suspects than armed White suspects, and they were less likely to shoot unarmed Black suspects than unarmed White suspects.
    It's mentioned here https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2016/07/19/academic-research-on-police-shootings-and-race/


  • #6500
    Carfacemandog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,044 ✭✭✭Carfacemandog


    American opinions on police racism have shifted quite a bit over the last 6 years, with 30% more believing that there are issues with brutality against black people now than then.

    IpsosPoll_GeorgeFloyd_Q3_BroaderProblem_060420_v01_KS_hpEmbed_16x9_992.jpg


  • #6501
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 3,773 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    cdeb wrote: »
    Where did I say that? (Hint - I didn't)

    Why would you try attribute a comment to me that I haven't remotely said?

    Why do you honestly think it makes sense to put words into my mouth like that? It is a really pig-ignorant way of debating.

    There is a lot to protest about. That's why I praised the clarity of the google docs report documenting police brutality in all of this (which just listed events, and didn't try bring race into it). That's why I've previously commented that societal issues are a big factor - we all know what American ultra-capitalism (for want of a better phrase) is like in terms of the way it creates and treats its poor.

    These are things to be protested. But by making all it about race, the real issues get hidden. That's the point I've been making all along.

    Could the reason for not mentioning race be an attempt to inflate the numbers and then sneakily imply it is all white cops versus unarmed black men?


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  • #6502
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 3,773 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Carfacemandog wrote: »
    American opinions on police racism have shifted quite a bit over the last 6 years, with 30% more believing that there are issues with brutality against black people now than then.

    IpsosPoll_GeorgeFloyd_Q3_BroaderProblem_060420_v01_KS_hpEmbed_16x9_992.jpg

    Scary if true. Reminds me of Goebbels Big Lie theory. If a lie gets repeated often enough eventually people believe it.


  • #6503
    Edgware
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,874 ✭✭✭Edgware


    Overheal wrote: »
    One does not negate the other. You can have racism and bad policing both.

    For example: a 2019 investigation showed that Minneapolis PD had not bothered to test rape kits for 1,700 victims over the last 30 years.
    Say it aint so Krusty


  • #6504
    peddlelies
    Closed Accounts Posts: 840 ✭✭✭peddlelies


    Absolute state of it



  • #6505
    completedit
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,639 ✭✭✭completedit


    peddlelies wrote: »
    Absolute state of it


    I'm loving these new episodes of south park. you couldn't make the smugness up


  • #6506
    Sam Quentin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,236 ✭✭✭Sam Quentin


    Sam Quentin wrote: »
    That 'Neus Channel CNM' needs to be hacked of the air... inciting protests which they know right well will lead to violence,.and all because they hate Mr Trump. Absolutely unbelievable totally shocking behaviour. Gawwwwwd they have a lot to answer to!?!?
    MeMen2_MoRi_ wrote: »
    Maybe you need a break from the neus channel cnm? It doesn't seem to be doing you any good, have a break have a kit kat with a nice cup of tea.. I'd recommend Barry's tea.

    NoNoNo
    I think they should be relentlessly called out.
    Just as they are relentless with fake news concerning Donald. Because they hate Mr Trump.


  • #6507
    MeMen2_MoRi_
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,982 ✭✭✭MeMen2_MoRi_


    Poor Donnie he's gonna love looking out the window in the morning and seeing this..

    "The city of Washington, D.C., is echoing a call for justice by naming a road and painting an unmissable message on a street that leads to the White House: Black lives matter."

    https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/dc-paints-black-lives-matter-on-street-near-lafayette-square-street-renamed-black-lives-matter-way/2323647/?fbclid=IwAR0rWI0GxTCkTJuT1v2OvpIjGJtIcHCvystlDMC4To4Inyba4C4FfjjwdsA


  • #6508
    punisher5112
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,519 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    peddlelies wrote: »
    Absolute state of it


    Oh no the white privilege comments.....

    The scariest part is a lot of these loons are actually educated.....


  • #6509
    Outlaw Pete
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,423 ✭✭✭✭Outlaw Pete


    circadian wrote: »
    People are dead as a result of a corrupt and unaccountable police force.

    They are far from "unaccountable".

    Just two examples in recent years. One black victim and one white victim:

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/nov/22/alabama-conviction-police-gregory-gunn-shooting
    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-48562834

    The narrative being spoken about today in the context of the protests is a false one.


  • #6510
    Justin Credible Darts
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,404 ✭✭✭Justin Credible Darts


    now that the white man who impeded the cops was pushed over and fractured his skull, we might get a "white lives matter"

    oh wait


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  • #6511
    RIGOLO
    Site Banned Posts: 1,463 ✭✭✭RIGOLO


    Overheal wrote: »
    Reports from LA protester interment of sexual assault performed by LAPD. Many more accounts online of what happened with the Jackie Robinson stadium debacle. 5+ hours for some people with no restroom access, a lesbian who was groped by 2 officers, another who was told “you have no rights here.” Through Facebook and twitter testimonials.

    Initially the LAPD asked 3,000 protestors, many set on destruction , to play the worlds biggest game of SIMON SAYS... SIMON SAYS please stand still and dont loot or riot.
    But the protestors were having none of it.

    21:00 " cmon cop, Im going to smash your head and loot this shop "

    21:05 " officer I need to pee, can you show me where the restroom is, and it must be an all inclusive restroom, Im very sensitive about things like that. By the way you should get that cut on your head looked at, dont you know throwing yourself into the path of flying bricks is very reckless.My lawyer will be in touch. "

    Yes indeed, social justice warriors always complaing about how they were treated after they set about smashing up the street.


This discussion has been closed.
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