Irish Independent Top 20 Players of the Past 50 years

Mick McGraw · 29-05-2020 12:36pm #1

People been following this at all.Been interesting to read through it this week.

Cluxton named as the best Leinster footballer of the period which I have no problem with but I'd have put Matt Connor ahead of him myself as he was a complete genius and he was top scorer in the country between league and championship each year from 1980-84 (inclusive) which is incredible level of consistency.

highgiant1985 · 29-05-2020 2:40pm

Yeah it’s been an interesting read.

Any one able to confirm what the Kilkenny top 20 list of hurlers was? I had the paper but it went into the recycling bin on wed so can’t find it now! Ieinsters was either Monday’s or Tuesdays paper.

Mick McGraw · 29-05-2020 2:55pm

highgiant1985 wrote: »

Yeah it’s been an interesting read.

Any one able to confirm what the Kilkenny top 20 list of hurlers was? I had the paper but it went into the recycling bin on wed so can’t find it now! Ieinsters was either Monday’s or Tuesdays paper.

1.Henry Shefflin, 2. DJ Carey, 3. Eddie Keher, 4. Tommy Walsh, 5. JJ Delaney, 6. Noel Skehan, 7. TJ Reid, 8. Ger Henderson, 9. Frank Cummins, 10. Richie Hogan, 11. Jackie Tyrrell, 12. Liam O’Brien, 13. Liam Fennelly, 14. Eddie Brennan, 15. Joe Hennessy, 16. Michael Fennelly, 17. Noel Hickey, 18. Eoin Larkin, 19. Michael Kavanagh, 20. Paul Murphy

castletownman · 29-05-2020 9:35pm

Shoot out between Cluxton, Canavan, Jack O'Shea and (least likely) Padraig Joyce for the football gong, with Shefflin, Canning and Corcoran battling out for the hurling (with Sambo McNaughton)

I know Cluxton's standing in the game is legendary, but it would be rather farcical if he wins it ahead of four-time Footballer of the Year Jack O'Shea and one of the greatest forwards to grace the game in Canavan, in my opinion of course. We all have been spoon-fed the narrative that he revolutionised kick-outs, but he had almost robotic movement in front of him from the best drilled side in history. They more than likely would have found a way to win anyway without his restarts.

Like Noel Skehan won nine All-Ireland's (three as a sub) for Kilkenny, was the Hurler of the Year in 1982 and saved Kilkenny's bacon more times in his career than Cluxton has. Yet if he was ranked as number one ahead of Shefflin or Canning it would be rightly regarded as ridiculous. Lev Yashin is seen as a revolutionary goalie in soccer (in a far more competitive and widely played game)- doesn't mean he is a greater player than Pele, Maradona, Messi or whoever else.

Hair's width between Jacko and Canavan for me, but would maybe plump for Canavan as he almost single-handedly guided Tyrone to the AI in 1995 and soldiered on with a county with no prior tradition of winning All-Irelands to eventually lead them to the promised land.

Shefflin, like Cluxton, had incredible talent around him, but he was the star of the greatest hurling team of all-time, so just edges it ahead of Canning, who had more natural ability and is still capable of the outrageous.

Mick McGraw · 29-05-2020 10:19pm

I'd say Jack O'Shea will get the nod.

Joyce hasn't a hope he was a great player at his best but I seem to remember him having some poor years in the middle part of his career before having a nice finish to his career.

Mick McGraw · 30-05-2020 9:29am

Football
1. Jack O'Shea (Kerry)
2. Pat Spillane (Kerry)
3. Peter Canavan (Tyrone)
4. Stephen Cluxton (Dublin)
5. Mikey Sheehy (Kerry)
6. Matt Connor (Offaly)
7. Brian Mullins (Dublin)
8. Larry Tompkins (Kildare/Cork)
9. Colm Cooper (Kerry)
10 John O'Keefe (Kerry)
11. Michael Murphy (Donegal)
12. Maurice Fitzgerald (Kerry)
13. Sean Cavanagh (Tyrone)
14. Colm O'Rourke (Meath)
15. Seamus Moynihan (Kerry)
16. Padraic Joyce (Galway)
17. Trevor Giles (Meath)
18. James McCarthy (Dublin)
19. Brian Fenton (Dublin)
20. Tomas O'Sé (Kerry)

Mick McGraw · 30-05-2020 9:33am

Hurling
1.Henry Shefflin (Kilkenny)
2. DJ Carey (Kilkenny)
3. Brian Whelahan (Offaly)
4. Eddie Keher (Kilkenny)
5. Tommy Walsh (Kilkenny)
6. Brian Corcoran (Cork)
7. Nicky English (Tipperary)
8. Joe Canning (Galway)
9. Seanie McMahon (Clare)
10. Ken McGrath (Waterford)
11. Joe Cooney (Galway)
12. Pat Hartigan (Limerick)
13. JJ Delaney (Kilkenny)
14. Brian Lohan (Clare)
15. Noel Skehan (Kilkenny)
16. Eamonn Cregan (Limerick)
17. Eoin Kelly (Tipperary)
18. TJ Reid (Kilkenny)
19. Tony Doran (Wexford)
20. Ray Cummins (Cork)

Rasputin11 · 30-05-2020 10:25am

Mick McGraw wrote: »

Hurling
1.Henry Shefflin (Kilkenny)
2. DJ Carey (Kilkenny)
3. Brian Whelahan (Offaly)
4. Eddie Keher (Kilkenny)
5. Tommy Walsh (Kilkenny)
6. Brian Corcoran (Cork)
7. Nicky English (Tipperary)
8. Joe Canning (Galway)
9. Seanie McMahon (Clare)
10. Ken McGrath (Waterford)
11. Joe Cooney (Galway)
12. Pat Hartigan (Limerick)
13. JJ Delaney (Kilkenny)
14. Brian Lohan (Clare)
15. Noel Skehan (Kilkenny)
16. Eamonn Cregan (Limerick)
17. Eoin Kelly (Tipperary)
18. TJ Reid (Kilkenny)
19. Tony Doran (Wexford)
20. Ray Cummins (Cork)

The modern hurlers don't get much of a look in, TJ at 17, laughable, top 5 player.

Mick McGraw · 30-05-2020 10:45am

Rasputin11 wrote: »

The modern hurlers don't get much of a look in, TJ at 17, laughable, top 5 player.

Not really laughable, for him to be at 17 it's a top 20 so you could make arguments for every player to be higher on the list if you wanted, there's a decent spread of players from all across the past 5 decades on the list and players who haven't completed their careers yet are going to be at a disadvantage.

castletownman · 30-05-2020 10:49am

Rasputin11 wrote: »

The modern hurlers don't get much of a look in, TJ at 17, laughable, top 5 player.

Whats more laughable is Tony Doran and Ray Cummins lower than TJ.

Those two are rightly considered two of the best full-fowards of all-time, along with Nickey Rackard. TJ finished 7th in the initial Kilkenny list.

tastyt · 30-05-2020 10:51am

Brian Lohan and seanie McMahon ahead of Eoin Kelly and tj Reid is bonkers

Lundstram · 30-05-2020 10:52am

DJ Carey was a much more skillful hurler than Shefflin. Best I've ever seen.

Ciaran McDonald in the football.

Best players should not be defined by the number of All Irelands they have.

Mick McGraw · 30-05-2020 10:54am

tastyt wrote: »

Brian Lohan and seanie McMahon ahead of Eoin Kelly and tj Reid is bonkers

Really? Lohan and McMahon are arguably the best players of all time in their respective positions.

Mick McGraw · 30-05-2020 10:57am

Lundstram wrote: »

DJ Carey was a much more skillful hurler than Shefflin. Best I've ever seen.

Ciaran McDonald in the football.

Best players should not be defined by the number of All Irelands they have.

I always favoured DJ to Shefflin, you could argue Shefflin was more effective than DJ but DJ was miles better to watch he was such an exciting player and he faced tougher competition as the team he had around him wasn't as good as the team Shefflin was on and the game was much more competitive in the 90's than it was during Shefflins career.

Both all time greats though so there's no wrong answer when picking between the two them.

PCeeeee · 30-05-2020 11:04am

Mick McGraw wrote: »

I'd say Jack O'Shea will get the nod.

Joyce hasn't a hope he was a great player at his best but I seem to remember him having some poor years in the middle part of his career before having a nice finish to his career.

More that Joyce hadn't really same quality of players round him in the latter years rather than his own standards dropping. Galway were on a steep downward slope.

I was at plenty of games where he was the only thing going for us, at times that made even worse for him as he was the focus of our entire attack. Left us very easy to read/defend.

One of my all time favourites.

niallo27 · 30-05-2020 11:06am

tastyt wrote: »

Brian Lohan and seanie McMahon ahead of Eoin Kelly and tj Reid is bonkers

You obviously never watched hurling in the 90s

I says · 30-05-2020 11:55am

Looking at these polls it’s all for ****e as the standard of hurling/football has changed so much down through the eras.
Modern era, shorter hurls, no ground hurling and you’d be send off for trying to double on a puck out or pulling on the ball.
Fitness levels to 25yrs ago are no comparison. All of a panel can hurl now, how many passengers played and won AIs back then.
Watching the 80 hurling final it was all timber. And looking at Offalys 82 win players would be shot for the amount of hit and hope clearances without picking out a man compared to today’s possession based defensive football.
The game is amateur in name only, in the last fifteen years it’s gone professional since the Cork boys were trying to drown themselves with lucozade sport doing interviews after a game. Look at the money that’s spent preparing teams now for championship.

Mick McGraw · 30-05-2020 12:00pm

I says wrote: »

Looking at these polls it’s all for ****e as the standard of hurling/football has changed so much down through the eras.
Modern era, shorter hurls, no ground hurling and you’d be send off for trying to double on a puck out or pulling on the ball.
Fitness levels to 25yrs ago are no comparison. All of a panel can hurl now, how many passengers played and won AIs back then.
Watching the 80 hurling final it was all timber. And looking at Offalys 82 win players would be shot for the amount of hit and hope clearances without picking out a man compared to today’s possession based defensive football.
The game is amateur in name only, in the last fifteen years it’s gone professional since the Cork boys were trying to drown themselves with lucozade sport doing interviews after a game. Look at the money that’s spent preparing teams now for championship.

You have to judge players on how good they were relative to the standards of the time they played in.Average teams from today would almost certainly hammer all ireland winning teams from the past due to how much more seriously the preparation of teams and players is these days than in the past.

Hulk Hands · 30-05-2020 12:06pm

Lundstram wrote: »

DJ Carey was a much more skillful hurler than Shefflin. Best I've ever seen.

Ciaran McDonald in the football.

Best players should not be defined by the number of All Irelands they have.

But why should being skillful be the defining metric either? DJ had nowhere near the consistency or effectiveness of Shefflin. McDonald could kick a few highlight reel shots/passes but was deemed good enough at the time to win a single All Star and was no.15 on the Connacht list

I says · 30-05-2020 12:07pm

Mick McGraw wrote: »

You have to judge players on how good they were relative to the standards of the time they played in.Average teams from today would almost certainly hammer all ireland winning teams from the past due to how much more seriously the preparation of teams and players is these days than in the past.

That’s why you can’t compare. Reference every decade to keep playing standards similar but not over 50 years. That four in a row Kerry team wouldn’t keep it kicked out to a modern average inter county team these days. Fitness and ball skills way better and trained. That is not to insult a great team of their time but you can’t say they could compete these days.

Nozebleed · 30-05-2020 12:08pm

no john mullane? shocking. one of the finest hurlers to play the game

30-05-2020 12:09pm

DJ was funner to watch but Shefflin was the overall better hurler, for me.

Mick McGraw · 30-05-2020 12:12pm

Hulk Hands wrote: »

But why should being skillful be the defining metric either? DJ had nowhere near the consistency or effectiveness of Shefflin. McDonald could kick a few highlight reel shots/passes but was deemed good enough at the time to win a single All Star and was no.15 on the Connacht list

Skill and excitement are a large part of the reason people are drawn to a sport it's as much what people remember as effective play is.

LuasSimon · 30-05-2020 12:17pm

The independent is a paper that I always thought had very lazy and negative GAA coverage but these teams for each county and so on have been fairly bang on and have been great reads . Must have had a wide net of contributors to coverage top 20 football players in clare , sligo etc .

Hulk Hands · 30-05-2020 12:17pm

Mick McGraw wrote: »

Football
1. Jack O'Shea (Kerry)
2. Pat Spillane (Kerry)
3. Peter Canavan (Tyrone)
4. Stephen Cluxton (Dublin)
5. Mikey Sheehy (Kerry)
6. Matt Connor (Offaly)
7. Brian Mullins (Dublin)
8. Larry Tompkins (Kildare/Cork)
9. Colm Cooper (Kerry)
10 John O'Keefe (Kerry)
11. Michael Murphy (Donegal)
12. Maurice Fitzgerald (Kerry)
13. Sean Cavanagh (Tyrone)
14. Colm O'Rourke (Meath)
15. Seamus Moynihan (Kerry)
16. Padraic Joyce (Galway)
17. Trevor Giles (Meath)
18. James McCarthy (Dublin)
19. Brian Fenton (Dublin)
20. Tomas O'Sé (Kerry)

Mullins, Tompkins and O'Rourke are all a bit high. If they must pick players from that era then Mickey Linden was ahead of them. There's a bit of token representation from teams that won a couple of AI's. Football was on a down period from that great Kerry early 80s team to the late 90s. Brogan, Stephen McDonald and McCaffrey could all get a mention. Not a terrible list though all in all

Mick McGraw · 30-05-2020 12:27pm

Hulk Hands wrote: »

Mullins, Tompkins and O'Rourke are all a bit high. If they must pick players from that era then Mickey Linden was ahead of them. There's a bit of token representation from teams that won a couple of AI's. Football was on a down period from that great Kerry early 80s team to the late 90s. Brogan, Stephen McDonald and McCaffrey could all get a mention. Not a terrible list though all in all

Mickey Linden was a class act one of my favourite footballers of all time , Anthony Tohill is another who was unlucky to miss out on the top 20 .

mountgomery burns · 30-05-2020 2:12pm

Anyone have the Waterford top 20 list?

physioman · 30-05-2020 2:18pm

Mick McGraw wrote: »

Football
1. Jack O'Shea (Kerry)
2. Pat Spillane (Kerry)
3. Peter Canavan (Tyrone)
4. Stephen Cluxton (Dublin)
5. Mikey Sheehy (Kerry)
6. Matt Connor (Offaly)
7. Brian Mullins (Dublin)
8. Larry Tompkins (Kildare/Cork)
9. Colm Cooper (Kerry)
10 John O'Keefe (Kerry)
11. Michael Murphy (Donegal)
12. Maurice Fitzgerald (Kerry)
13. Sean Cavanagh (Tyrone)
14. Colm O'Rourke (Meath)
15. Seamus Moynihan (Kerry)
16. Padraic Joyce (Galway)
17. Trevor Giles (Meath)
18. James McCarthy (Dublin)
19. Brian Fenton (Dublin)
20. Tomas O'Sé (Kerry)

Tomas o se in the top 20? Thought darragh was a better footballer. I would have had Tony scullion as a better defender in my opinion. .

tastyt · 30-05-2020 4:47pm

Not old enough to have seen JBM but know he’s an absolute GAA and Cork legend .

Was he just good in both codes and not good enough to be an all time great ?

Bass Reeves · 30-05-2020 4:48pm

I says wrote: »

That’s why you can’t compare. Reference every decade to keep playing standards similar but not over 50 years. That four in a row Kerry team wouldn’t keep it kicked out to a modern average inter county team these days. Fitness and ball skills way better and trained. That is not to insult a great team of their time but you can’t say they could compete these days.

TBH I think you can. You have to look at the players and see if he could adapt to he modern game and visa versa you have to look at the modern players and wonder if he could adapt to playing 20-30 years ago. It not all just about tarining, 40 years ago players held down the type of full time jobs that some players then did. Jack O'Shea was a tradesman AFAIK. You have to look at how these players were considered by there contemperies.

Hulk Hands wrote: »

Mullins, Tompkins and O'Rourke are all a bit high. If they must pick players from that era then Mickey Linden was ahead of them. There's a bit of token representation from teams that won a couple of AI's. Football was on a down period from that great Kerry early 80s team to the late 90s. Brogan, Stephen McDonald and McCaffrey could all get a mention. Not a terrible list though all in all

Tompkins along with Matt O'Connor were the two greatest CF that I have ever seen. He won two All Irelands with a middling Cork team but they were in Five All Ireland Finals. Tompkins was a box to box player and i think a good backetball players as well. Great free taker but would be on any team for his general football ability and brain as well. mentally very tough. Mullins was an animal and I mean that in the best sense, won an All Ireland at 19 years of age at midfield. Fairly mobile for he size of him. O'Rourke was one of the four great Rourke scorers of the 70-90's period. Both as a freetaker and from open play. Maybe rated a little bit high but still deseves to be there.

Mick McGraw wrote: »

You have to judge players on how good they were relative to the standards of the time they played in.Average teams from today would almost certainly hammer all Ireland winning teams from the past due to how much more seriously the preparation of teams and players is these days than in the past.

TBH good senior Club teams like Corafin would beat a lot of teams from back then. But when you compare you have to compare if players would be able to look after them selves without the refs and linemens protection.

Bass Reeves · 30-05-2020 4:51pm

tastyt wrote: »

Brian Lohan and seanie McMahon ahead of Eoin Kelly and tj Reid is bonkers

That Clare team had only very middling forwards it had brillant backs and midfielders. There are only 5 backs in the top twenty.

Hulk Hands · 30-05-2020 7:34pm

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Tompkins along with Matt O'Connor were the two greatest CF that I have ever seen. He won two All Irelands with a middling Cork team but they were in Five All Ireland Finals. Tompkins was a box to box player and i think a good backetball players as well. Great free taker but would be on any team for his general football ability and brain as well. mentally very tough. Mullins was an animal and I mean that in the best sense, won an All Ireland at 19 years of age at midfield. Fairly mobile for he size of him. O'Rourke was one of the four great Rourke scorers of the 70-90's period. Both as a freetaker and from open play. Maybe rated a little bit high but still deseves to be there

Look it's easy to extol the virtues of any player, the argument is where they should be placed. All 3 are great players. Are Mullins or Tomkins better than Cavanagh, Cooper or Fitz who they were selected higher? Was O'Rourke better than Joyce or his own county man and 2 time Footballer of the year Giles? No in my opinion and id think most rational opinions. Nothing against the 3 players who are all greats

30-05-2020 7:35pm

Never seen Connor play. Any games on the GAA website of him?

PCeeeee · 30-05-2020 8:52pm

Jesus I miss it

Bass Reeves · 30-05-2020 9:02pm

Hulk Hands wrote: »

Look it's easy to extol the virtues of any player, the argument is where they should be placed. All 3 are great players. Are Mullins or Tomkins better than Cavanagh, Cooper or Fitz who they were selected higher? Was O'Rourke better than Joyce or his own county man and 2 time Footballer of the year Giles? No in my opinion and id think most rational opinions. Nothing against the 3 players who are all greats

Alot of people think only of the Colm O'Rourke of the 87-95 period. He was 30 years of age whem he won his first medal in 1987. Ulster lads revere Perter the great for for his 10+ years soldiering away before Tyrone won an All Ireland. O'Rourke was the Peter the Great of the 80's. 12 years on the Meath senior team before he won an All Ireland. Footballer of the year at 34 years of age. In the 87 final with a cork team all over them he scores the goal to get them back on track. 20 years a Meath senior player. Giles walked away O'Rourke played on until the bitter end and he was not even born in Meath.

Cananagh was a great player as was Joyce. And maybe we give the edge to players who played with successful counties, the Jack O'Shea's and the Pat Spillanes. But you look at the list and there is only one goalie, four midfielders, and four defenders, the rest are all forwards. Of the forwards there is four that played on the half forward line and seven are inside forwards.

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

Never seen Connor play. Any games on the GAA website of him?

There is a very small clip of him here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snlHd8e7uKs

Hulk Hands · 30-05-2020 9:21pm

I'll agree with the successful counties point anyway Bass, Declan Browne's the best footballer I've seen live bar Peter Canavan yet he'll never get acknowledged as such. Thankfully he got rewarded with two all stars. The forwards backs argument is tougher as forwards stand out so much more. Il never argue against having Tomas O'Se, Canty or Lacey in these arguments for that reason though

MfMan · 30-05-2020 9:37pm

Mick McGraw wrote: »

I always favoured DJ to Shefflin, you could argue Shefflin was more effective than DJ but DJ was miles better to watch he was such an exciting player and he faced tougher competition as the team he had around him wasn't as good as the team Shefflin was on and the game was much more competitive in the 90's than it was during Shefflins career.

Both all time greats though so there's no wrong answer when picking between the two them.

Canning better than both, consummate, complete hurler. Shefflin not even best KK hurler of his era; JJ and Tommy Walsh just as consistent and more brilliant. Brian Lohan a better defender than Ollie Canning or Pete Finnerty? I think not.

PCeeeee · 30-05-2020 9:52pm

Hulk Hands wrote: »

I'll agree with the successful counties point anyway Bass, Declan Browne's the best footballer I've seen live bar Peter Canavan yet he'll never get acknowledged as such. Thankfully he got rewarded with two all stars. The forwards backs argument is tougher as forwards stand out so much more. Il never argue against having Tomas O'Se, Canty or Lacey in these arguments for that reason though

I'll always have a bias towards the lads I saw live. There is something in seeing them in the whole and not confined by the screen. The way they move, what they do off the ball even their demeanour sometimes. The really good ones stand out a mile.

Just on successful counties and players, he mightn't have won much in the end but Kieran McDonald was something else to watch.

Declan Browne was awesome. You can only wonder what he'd have been like in a forward line like the modern Dubs.

mountgomery burns · 30-05-2020 9:54pm

While I know Browne was a super footballer, is there a caveat there that you don't know what he'd have been like in the white heat of an all Ireland final for example? He might well of excelled but rightly or wrongly not having the experience counts against him in these sort of things.

PCeeeee · 30-05-2020 9:58pm

mountgomery burns wrote: »

While I know Browne was a super footballer, is there a caveat there that you don't know what he'd have been like in the white heat of an all Ireland final for example? He might well of excelled but rightly or wrongly not having the experience counts against him in these sort of things.

We'll never know. More is the pity. Can you hold it against a fella? I dunno. He was successful in his own right, over and over. I suppose I can wonder but if I had to guess I'd say he would have rose to it.

mountgomery burns · 30-05-2020 10:03pm

PCeeeee wrote: »

We'll never know. More is the pity. Can you hold it against a fella? I dunno. He was successful in his own right, over and over. I suppose I can wonder but if I had to guess I'd say he would have rose to it.

Yeah you wouldn't but when it comes to picking the best the likes of John Galvin, Gary Brennan, Declan Browne aren't going to topple your Brian Fenton, Gooch Cooper or Canavan in the end just because those are the fellas who you remember putting in the displays that won all-irelands

And though I agree you'd think he would have flourished but not having the evidence makes it harder to pick him, certainly if you're writing for a broadsheet sports column.

Strumms · 30-05-2020 10:10pm

Mick McGraw wrote: »

People been following this at all.Been interesting to read through it this week.

Cluxton named as the best Leinster footballer of the period which I have no problem with but I'd have put Matt Connor ahead of him myself as he was a complete genius and he was top scorer in the country between league and championship each year from 1980-84 (inclusive) which is incredible level of consistency.

Good shout, also...

If we are talking about consistency...

Stephen Cluxton

Position : Goalkeeper

Leinster Titles : 15

All Ireland’s : 7

National Football Leagues : 5

27 titles ... seriously and...

All Stars : 5

He captained Dublin to 6 of those 7 All Ireland Championships.

That’s staggering, thats something in sport, be it GAA, amateur or otherwise that’s simply amazing. He’s simply one of the greatest sportsmen the country has ever produced, but he’s that humble and quiet about his achievements, you have never seen him seek column inches or turn up on the chat show circuit, trying to sell a book, plug this or that. I’ve know him a very small bit for a while through a couple of situations and he’s a nice guy, very humble and there is no aura of success or achievement he’s just a guy getting on with life, his career, his beloved sport...

His record above speaks for itself and will be decades you’d imagine but likely never that will be equaled. Staggering.

Also as a goalkeeper he has scored 66 points. Fukkk.

PCeeeee · 30-05-2020 10:24pm

mountgomery burns wrote: »

Yeah you wouldn't but when it comes to picking the best the likes of John Galvin, Gary Brennan, Declan Browne aren't going to topple your Brian Fenton, Gooch Cooper or Canavan in the end just because those are the fellas who you remember putting in the displays that won all-irelands

And though I agree you'd think he would have flourished but not having the evidence makes it harder to pick him, certainly if you're writing for a broadsheet sports column.

Agree. But it would imo be so wrong to leave his like out of the discussion.

Like it or not the county system we as the GAA inherited is inherently unfair. Some lads who are born superstars will never win nothing. That's not to say we can't recognise their greatness. Sometimes these lads have achieved more in winning nothing than fellas with AI medals.

Edit. Perhaps I should say while winning nothing rather than in winning nothing.

Mick McGraw · 30-05-2020 11:19pm

PCeeeee wrote: »

Agree. But it would imo be so wrong to leave his like out of the discussion.

Like it or not the county system we as the GAA inherited is inherently unfair. Some lads who are born superstars will never win nothing. That's not to say we can't recognise their greatness. Sometimes these lads have achieved more in winning nothing than fellas with AI medals.

Edit. Perhaps I should say while winning nothing rather than in winning nothing.

It was mentioned in one of the pieces in the independent during the week that John O'Leary picked Kevin O'Brien as part of the best 15 composed of players he played against ahead of Pat Spillane as he said it was easier to be a great footballer playing for Kerry and how good would Spillane have been if he was from Wicklow.

Spillane was obviously an all time great but O'Leary raises a good point as it is much easier to dedicate yourself to the sport when you know if you get a chance to play at county level you have a chance of winning motivation is not a huge issue for players from Kerry,Dublin etc whereas it is for the likes of Kevin O'Brien,Declan Brown,John Galvin etc who became all time great players despite knowing from day one they probably had very little chance of achieving much in the game.Also its much easier to be a great player when you are surrounded by high quality players.

JohnnyFlash · 30-05-2020 11:25pm

These things will always throw up surprises, but P. Joyce not making the best 15 is madness.

Mick McGraw · 30-05-2020 11:28pm

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

These things will always throw up surprises, but P. Joyce not making the best 15 is madness.

Which of the top 15 would you remove so Joyce can be in it?

Bass Reeves · 30-05-2020 11:31pm

Mick McGraw wrote: »

Which of the top 15 would you remove so Joyce can be in it?

What other inside forward in the top 15 would you replace. Peter Canavan, Mickey Sheehy, Gouch, Michael Murphy, Maurice Fitzgerald or Colm O Rourke.

Utopia Parkway · 31-05-2020 12:35am

Mick McGraw wrote: »

Which of the top 15 would you remove so Joyce can be in it?

I'd have him ahead of Tompkins and O'Rourke without even thinking about it and unlike some of the older players I saw all those three play in the flesh.

But sure they'll always be quibbles over who's ahead of who in a list.

Bass Reeves · 31-05-2020 12:48am

Utopia Parkway wrote: »

I'd have him ahead of Tompkins and O'Rourke without even thinking about it and unlike some of the older players I saw all those three play in the flesh.

But sure they'll always be quibbles over who's ahead of who in a list.

So O'Rourke will get him from 16th to 14th.... WOW. Tompkins was a totally different footballer. He could have played in any central position on the field from FB to FF. Have no doubt, Joyce was a great footballer but I not rate him in Tompkins class. TBH there is not much between himself and O'Rourke but O'Rourke probably shades it. Mainly due to the longevity of his career, success came late to him but he carried Meath teams from 1980 on to the successful era of the late 80's

LuasSimon · 31-05-2020 8:30am

Bass Reeves wrote: »

So O'Rourke will get him from 16th to 14th.... WOW. Tompkins was a totally different footballer. He could have played in any central position on the field from FB to FF. Have no doubt, Joyce was a great footballer but I not rate him in Tompkins class. TBH there is not much between himself and O'Rourke but O'Rourke probably shades it. Mainly due to the longevity of his career, success came late to him but he carried Meath teams from 1980 on to the successful era of the late 80's

Thought Maurice Fitzgerald might have a bit higher , wouldn’t have thought Jack o Shea was the best player of the last 50 years but when someone like Mick O Dwyer says he was the best midfielder he ever saw play the game it’s hard to argue with that . Did he even say the best player he ever saw play the game ??

Bass Reeves · 31-05-2020 9:15am

LuasSimon wrote: »

Thought Maurice Fitzgerald might have a bit higher , wouldn’t have thought Jack o Shea was the best player of the last 50 years but when someone like Mick O Dwyer says he was the best midfielder he ever saw play the game it’s hard to argue with that . Did he even say the best player he ever saw play the game ??

I suppose never directly, but he did say that of all the players he saw Matt Connor was the one he have most liked to have on the Kerry 4in a row team

Irish Independent Top 20 Players of the Past 50 years

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