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Brexit discussion thread XII (Please read OP before posting)

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,006 ✭✭✭Enzokk


    Some info from the appearance of Gove and Frost at the committee today, they refused to commit to the safeguards to the ECHR because they want to ability to enhance it in the future.

    Government refusing to sign up to Brexit safeguards so it can change Human Rights Act, Gove admits
    The UK is refusing to sign up to human rights safeguards demanded by the EU in exchange for a trade deal so the government has the option of changing the Human Rights Act, Michael Gove has said.

    The cabinet office minister told a parliamentary committee on Wednesday that the government might want to "enhance" legislation on human rights "in all sorts of ways".

    Britain, along with every country in Europe other than Belarus, is a signatory of the European Convention on Human Rights. Brussels wants the UK to commit to seeing the status quo on the issue as part of the terms of a Brexit trade agreement.

    They want to enhance it by getting rid of it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,105 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    It has been explained so many times that standards, or which the ECHR can be counted, are the lowest level. There is nothing to stop any country from going above them, or enhance them as Gove is trying to state it.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 42,515 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Mod: No insults please. Post deleted.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Posts: 31,828 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Reading the comments section of this story.
    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-52819126
    Coronavirus: Von der Leyen calls €750bn recovery fund 'Europe's moment'

    ....


    A recovery fund worth €750bn (£670bn; $825bn) has been proposed by the EU's executive Commission to help the EU tackle an "unprecedented crisis".

    The package will be made up of grants and loans for every EU member state.

    Economies across the 27-nation EU bloc have been ravaged by the Covid-19 pandemic, but several southern states had big debts even before the crisis.

    Commission President Ursula von der Leyen said "this is Europe's moment".

    "Things we take for granted are being questioned. None of that can be fixed by any single country alone," she told the European Parliament. "This is about all of us and it is way bigger than any of us."

    Brexiteers are jumping all over this in the comments section saying just how the UK has had a lucky escape from being burdened with the costs of all this "recovery fund!"


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,995 ✭✭✭McGiver


    This was extensively discussed here (in France) on the radio last weekend in the context of Renault's looming financial difficulties. The consensus from all contributors was that pumping money into electric vehicles won't bring any jobs "home" because we Europeans don't own the most important part of any EV - the battery, and the (lack of) availability of batteries will severely hamper development of the industry. Putting up more barriers for the sake of national self-interest will only hand an advantage to countries/companies that don't engage in such silliness.

    On that point, there's an outside chance that the UK might manage to outmanoeuvre the French, if they were to invest in - and succeed in - the development of fuel-cell technology. But, of course, they risk scuppering their best opportunity to conquer the French by shutting themselves out of the EU.
    EU, several member states and sone carmakers are already working on battery R&D and especially manufacturing in Europe. This is long recognised issue and it's being worked on.

    It's better to pump money into electric car industry even when the battery supply is still Asian than to pump money to largely obsolete polluting fossil fuel car industry which is dependent on oil from despotic, unstable and toxic countries.


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  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 95,466 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    IIRC the German car makers reckoned Brexit would cost them about €1.2Bn a year because of tariffs and extra paperwork.

    And then the pound fell against the euro so they had to offer discounts to sell cars in the UK.

    To put that cost in perspective one German car maker alone Volkswagen is paying out €30 Bn for the emissions scandal.


    The German car makers will not be rushing to the UK's rescue or dancing to their tune.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,743 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    J Mysterio wrote: »
    Yes, but this is essentially a letter to MPs more generally (or the opposition if you will) and not to the Tories, or government.
    jm08 wrote: »
    Its a response to a letter the opposition MPs obviously wrote to Barnier.
    Indeed.

    And, furthermore, all the letter does is quote more or less word-for-word what the Withdrawal Agreement says about an extension. The Withdrawal Agreement that Boris Johnson secured, and Boris Johnson signed on behalf of the UK, and the Boris Johnson and his fanboys hailed as the "oven-ready deal" that Boris Johnson secured when no-one else could.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,454 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    IIRC the German car makers reckoned Brexit would cost them about €1.2Bn a year because of tariffs and extra paperwork.

    And then the pound fell against the euro so they had to offer discounts to sell cars in the UK.

    To put that cost in perspective one German car maker alone Volkswagen is paying out €30 Bn for the emissions scandal.


    The German car makers will not be rushing to the UK's rescue or dancing to their tune.

    Historically, the German cars always sold at a higher price in the UK than other markets, and at lower prices in the Irish market (due to VRT).


  • Posts: 31,828 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Historically, the German cars always sold at a higher price in the UK than other markets, and at lower prices in the Irish market (due to VRT).

    They sell cars with the paddy spec, which is far lower than the UK spec, hence so many UK imports.

    In other news,.Nissan have decided to keep the Sunderland factory open while closing a plant in Spain.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,105 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    They sell cars with the paddy spec, which is far lower than the UK spec, hence so many UK imports.

    In other news,.Nissan have decided to keep the Sunderland factory open while closing a plant in Spain.

    Didn't Nissan receive a secret deal from TM just after the brexit vote?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,831 ✭✭✭RobMc59


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    Didn't Nissan receive a secret deal from TM just after the brexit vote?

    Perhaps the UK has copied some EU countries and offered `tax haven` incentives.


  • Posts: 31,828 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    Didn't Nissan receive a secret deal from TM just after the brexit vote?

    Did she?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 748 ✭✭✭moon2


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    Didn't Nissan receive a secret deal from TM just after the brexit vote?

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/feb/04/government-letter-to-nissan-reveals-brexit-promise-to-carmarkers

    Not sure what the current status of this deal is though. It's unlikely to be widely announced and publicly available to read.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,006 ✭✭✭Enzokk


    RobMc59 wrote: »
    Perhaps the UK has copied some EU countries and offered `tax haven` incentives.


    Could you post details of these tax havens? If other EU countries are offering them already, why hasn't the UK done it before?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,280 ✭✭✭fash


    Would imagine it makes more sense to be in UK than in EU. Japan has a deal with EU and can sell in cars directly. If there is no deal between UK and EU, better to be based in UK so can sell directly there and from Japan to EU. Couple that with some UK style dubious state aid and could make sense


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,454 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Enzokk wrote: »
    Could you post details of these tax havens? If other EU countries are offering them already, why hasn't the UK done it before?
    I
    The Caymen Islands,The British Virgin Islands, Gibraltar, The Isle of Mann, The Channel Islands, etc. etc. etc.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,454 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    fash wrote: »
    Would imagine it makes more sense to be in UK than in EU. Japan has a deal with EU and can sell in cars directly. If there is no deal between UK and EU, better to be based in UK so can sell directly there and from Japan to EU. Couple that with some UK style dubious state aid and could make sense

    Not when 80% of cars are exported. Where do the components come from?

    Better to manufacture in Japan and ship directly to markets.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,280 ✭✭✭fash


    Not when 80% of cars are exported. Where do the components come from?

    Better to manufacture in Japan and ship directly to markets.
    Hard to understand the decision otherwise: unless there is an absolutely huge state aid bung, why stay in UK otherwise?

    Edit: ok, it seems the correct answer is that nothing has actually changed yet.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,831 ✭✭✭RobMc59


    I
    The Caymen Islands,The British Virgin Islands, Gibraltar, The Isle of Mann, The Channel Islands, etc. etc. etc.

    I doubt you could have large manufacturing or pharmaceutical companies in any of those places.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,454 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    RobMc59 wrote: »
    I doubt you could have large manufacturing or pharmaceutical companies in any of those places.

    True, but lots of opportunities for tax diversion - and plenty of benefit to spread around. Who cares about manufacturing - more money to be had dodging taxes.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,006 ✭✭✭Enzokk


    RobMc59 wrote: »
    I doubt you could have large manufacturing or pharmaceutical companies in any of those places.


    I wasn't trying to catch you out or anything, you just made a statement about tax haven countries in the EU in your post. I was just wondering what you were basing this view on.

    The second question still stands though, what has stopped the UK from following this model if other EU countries are already doing it? I hope you aren't trying to imply there is a EU Law that prohibits the UK from doing the same as other countries.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 95,466 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    fash wrote: »
    Hard to understand the decision otherwise: unless there is an absolutely huge state aid bung, why stay in UK otherwise?

    Edit: ok, it seems the correct answer is that nothing has actually changed yet.
    The other answer is that there is enough domestic to support one large car plant in the UK even if all the others close.


    It's essential that the UK get the EU to recognise cars made in the UK from EU parts as OK for rules of origin.

    The US on the other hand is more likely to treat the UK like Canada or Mexico when it comes to rules of origin. I can't see the US grandfathering in the use of EU parts for the sake of it. GMO, NHS contracts, chlorinated chicken, cattle laced with chemicals are the obvious trade offs.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,454 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Nissan have closed car plant in Barcelona.

    http://https://www.bbc.com/news/business-52829348

    Must have some deal agreed.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,088 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    They sell cars with the paddy spec, which is far lower than the UK spec, hence so many UK imports.

    In other news,.Nissan have decided to keep the Sunderland factory open while closing a plant in Spain.

    Paddy spec is the result of vrt and the need to keep prices reasonably affordable with vrt on top.

    It's not paddy spec as the priority which you seem to imply.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,105 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    It is an odd announcement from Nissan. It will of course be lauded in the likes of the Express as a vote of confidence in Brexit, and in some ways it is, but there is more to it than that.

    I wonder why they announced it now, prior to any deal. It is either a massive gamble or they have already factored in the issues that no deal could bring, or are relying on whatever was in that deal.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,831 ✭✭✭RobMc59


    Enzokk wrote: »
    I wasn't trying to catch you out or anything, you just made a statement about tax haven countries in the EU in your post. I was just wondering what you were basing this view on.

    The second question still stands though, what has stopped the UK from following this model if other EU countries are already doing it? I hope you aren't trying to imply there is a EU Law that prohibits the UK from doing the same as other countries.

    I wasn't implying anything,I have no problem with countries attracting investment by offering incentives,I posted because someone implied the UK had a secret deal.
    It's possible the Nissan UK facility is more competitive than the Spanish plant which could be the reason for their decision.


  • Posts: 31,828 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    It is an odd announcement from Nissan. It will of course be lauded in the likes of the Express as a vote of confidence in Brexit, and in some ways it is, but there is more to it than that.

    I wonder why they announced it now, prior to any deal. It is either a massive gamble or they have already factored in the issues that no deal could bring, or are relying on whatever was in that deal.
    Nissan have a significant market share in the UK and there is also talk of assembling other makes there as well.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/business-52829348
    Nissan is part of a three-way alliance with Renault and Mitsubishi, which are restructuring global operations to enable them to work more closely and cut costs.
    As part of its plans, Nissan said it would focus on several "key markets", including Japan, North America and China.
    Its boss said that it will "sustain" its presence in Europe but will leave more room for alliance partners there, such as Renault.


    There has been speculation that Renault could switch some production to the Sunderland factory.
    Nissan chief executive Makoto Uchida said the company would maintain production at its Sunderland plant.
    It will begin building cars there again in June, after production was paused due to coronavirus-related lockdown measures.
    I'm not so sure about them Building Renaults though, but it would avoid any tariffs if they did.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,257 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    "building" Renaults in Sunderland to avoid tarrifs would be as pathetic as our motor "industry" was. Disassembled cars put back together with some parts notionally from Irish vendors, who were just reselling the same stuff.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 883 ✭✭✭reslfj


    Renault and Nissan were about to merge. This merger has been called off for now. They will however continue to work together.

    You can't - IMHO - in any reasonable way judge their future plans from the closure of a single factory.

    There is plenty of unused auto-factory capacity in Europe. You need to have a very detailed knowledge of every factory of every auto grouping to understand why they move production, expand or close factories.

    The market is moving to electric cars and Nissan/Renault may well use its UK factory for fossil-fuel cars for some years? Getting a larger sum from the UK government may well justify building in the UK for a period.

    The real game is where the electric cars and batteries will be built when volume production of electric cars takes off.

    Lars :)

    PS! The physical assembly of any modern car is very efficient and done right not too expensive. Good robots and good logistic for JIT are core to this. Getting the design right, tested in the labs, approved, marketed and liked by customers is infinitely more important than actually making the car on the assembly line.

    This is not new, but 'importance' has shifted more away from blue-collar jobs and to an approved and certified product into the hands of the buyer.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,743 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    RobMc59 wrote: »
    I wasn't implying anything,I have no problem with countries attracting investment by offering incentives,I posted because someone implied the UK had a secret deal.
    It's possible the Nissan UK facility is more competitive than the Spanish plant which could be the reason for their decision.
    Nissan has been offered state aid to cope with Brexit; this isn't a new revelation. It's likely that this would have been a factor in their choice over which plant to close.

    It's not really a "vote of confidence in Brexit", though. Nissan has already signalled that, in a no-deal Brexit, its European business is not viable, precisely because it is so UK-focussed.

    Essentially, Nissan is signalling that, if it retains a commitment to the European market, that will be based on its manufacturing capacity in the UK. But whether it retains a commitment to the European market will depend on the Brexit terms. So the fact that they have closed the Barcelona plant doesn not mean that they won't also close Sunderland, or signficantly scale it down, if the UK fails to make a deal with the EU under which the Sunderland plant can serve the EEA market.


This discussion has been closed.
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