Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread XI (The Finals Countdown)

arsebiscuits1 · 20-05-2020 1:51pm

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

As someone who never really liked Zebo due to his work ethic and reputation of individual over team, I thought he was fully deserving of this performance being his last in Red.

He was a total me feiner that game, he wanted nothing more than to have a huge individual moment that game for his highlight reel

Case in point. 26:58 Munster have advantage in Leisnters half. Zebo had turned Ringrose in, a simple pop to Scannell and Munster have a 4 on 1 with Earls very likely to finish in the corner. Instead, he steps outside Ringrose who just had to shepard him towards touch where he eats into 3 other players space. He tries a fancy offload to Earls which goes straight to touch.

That's U13 levels of detrimental selfishness

Case in point again. 34:22 on the clock. Zebo gets the ball just outside the Leinster 22. Leinster have no one in the backfield as Carbery was still on the ground from a previous man. Munster had 5 men outside Zebo to Leinsters 3 (all defending quite high) with Cronin being the widest man for Leinster. A simple early pass from Zebo and they've a guaranteed 5 on 3 inside Leinsters 22. He opts to carry for no gain in ground and it ends with Kleyn getting his red card a few phases later.( EDIT: Somehow this was only a yellow? I remember it differently. JK a very lucky boy to avoid anything more)

Case in point 3. 47:23. Ringrose sends a lovely grubber down the touchline from his half and it stays in play. Zebo recovers on the 5m in his 22. He is a left so he has plenty of an angle to get a decent touch finder on half way. Murray is jogging back as he doesn't feel he needs to be a passing option as any reasonable thought process is Zebo will kick it. Ringrose chops him low and ROL gets a lovely poach on the ball.

thomond2006 · 20-05-2020 3:16pm

Quin_Dub wrote: »

That describes his entire career tbh.

You lose me with this sort of rubbish.

Clegg · 20-05-2020 3:24pm

Quin_Dub wrote: »

That describes his entire career tbh.

When he broke through first I'd say he was pretty unselfish. Scored plenty of trys and linked well with teammates. But I think his overall play diminished in his final years with Munster. I don't know if it was from his falling out with Schmidt or just a dip in firm, but he looked more lethargic on the field and playing more for himself than the team.

Clegg · 20-05-2020 3:26pm

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

As someone who never really liked Zebo due to his work ethic and reputation of individual over team, I thought he was fully deserving of this performance being his last in Red.

He was a total me feiner that game, he wanted nothing more than to have a huge individual moment that game for his highlight reel

Ironically, the best thing he did that game was when he was at his most unselfish. Was a few metres from Leinsters line and could've made a giant him himself. Instead pops an offload to Earls to score instead.

arsebiscuits1 · 20-05-2020 3:29pm

Clegg wrote: »

Ironically, the best thing he did that game was when he was at his most unselfish. Was a few metres from Leinsters line and could've made a giant him himself. Instead pops an offload to Earls to score instead.

Yup. Earls took that extremely well. Nice little basketball style offload from Zebo

yerrahbah · 20-05-2020 3:31pm

Zebo had a poor final season at Munster, resulting in him not being selected for the SF vs Racing

Every single player goes through peaks and troughs in form.

But like everything with Zebo for some reason it is blown totally out of proportion amongst some people.

Quin_Dub · 20-05-2020 4:00pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

You lose me with this sort of rubbish.

Clegg wrote: »

When he broke through first I'd say he was pretty unselfish. Scored plenty of trys and linked well with teammates. But I think his overall play diminished in his final years with Munster. I don't know if it was from his falling out with Schmidt or just a dip in firm, but he looked more lethargic on the field and playing more for himself than the team.

We can agree to disagree , there is no question that Zebo is a hugely talented player however he has never shown the kind of work ethic and selflessness that you see from other players.

A player like Earls or Conway for example , both equally (or more so) talented and skillful in their own way have always been far more likely to take the less selfish option , far more likely to be seen filling in to a role for the team , whether that's stepping in to scrum-half when they spot he's not there at the ruck or indeed , hitting that ruck if they were 1st on the scene. He was far more likely to stay out waiting for the scoring pass or to look to take it on himself rather than giving it early to better placed players.

I'm not questioning Zebo's obvious talent , I'm questioning his work ethic and his willingness to put the team above himself.

Sometimes he put in the effort and worked for the collective and sometimes he didn't , unfortunately the latter was far more likely to be the case and neither Munster nor Irelands game plan really allowed for that luxury especially against the better sides.

Scottmactom · 20-05-2020 4:25pm

This is a leinster thread, move the zebo talk elsewhere please.

thankfully he never played for leinster, can only imagine the complaining from munster fans given his antics if he had.

20-05-2020 5:44pm

It's well documented that Zebo doesn't put the work in off the field which is a pity because he still made it to the top of the game (Lions tour).

Can you imagine if he had the discipline of someone like Earls or Dave Kearney and married that with the gifts that (almost by themselves) got him to the top table. He'd have been unplayable.

As for Lowe, he was an awful bollox that game. So many moments, even really subtle ones - he spots JJ over the ball and never missing a chance to rinse an outhalf:

dregin · 21-05-2020 10:53am

Deleted User wrote: »

It's well documented that Zebo doesn't put the work in off the field which is a pity because he still made it to the top of the game (Lions tour).

Can you imagine if he had the discipline of someone like Earls or Dave Kearney and married that with the gifts that (almost by themselves) got him to the top table. He'd have been unplayable.

As for Lowe, he was an awful bollox that game. So many moments, even really subtle ones - he spots JJ over the ball and never missing a chance to rinse an outhalf:

I remember him posting a video of him listening to Nevermind on vinyl and thinking "We could be friends". This clip cements it as a certainty.

Clegg · 21-05-2020 11:05am

Decent interview with Jordi about his move to Ulster and what it's like in lockdown. He mentions that it was tough to leave Leinster, but he left at the right time. I'm a huge fan of his, but I think if he stuck around he wouldn't be making Leinsters strongest 23 anymore. There's so much quality there now.

https://www.the42.ie/jordi-murphy-ulster-contract-5103489-May2020/

Scottmactom · 21-05-2020 12:13pm

this day last year is when leinster announced contract renewals... how long until they announce this seasons?

Scottmactom · 22-05-2020 6:50am

Sexton again in media saying he doesn't intend on retiring anytime soon, does he finish his career at leinster?
Or is there an inevitable falling out going to happen with Sexton and the IRFU?

Podge_irl · 22-05-2020 7:06am

Why would there be an inevitable falling out?

Scottmactom · 22-05-2020 7:08am

Podge_irl wrote: »

Why would there be an inevitable falling out?

There has been before.

He will want to play into his late 30's and IRFU may wish to move on from his large contract and usher in a new era.

irishbucsfan · 22-05-2020 7:11am

I think they're pretty keen to maintain a relationship with him for when he's finished playing and they'll let him wind down

Buer · 22-05-2020 7:13am

I don't see Sexton leaving Leinster again given he has a young family and was quite open about how hard he found leaving last time.

His hand may be forced but, if he wants it, I could potentially see him getting another year at Leinster (not Ireland) bringing him to 2022 and retiring at 36. But things do tend to change very quickly in rugby once you reach a certain age. ROG was starting in the RWC in October 2011. He never started another game for Ireland and announces his retirement 18 months later after his form fell off a cliff.

With this lengthy break, Sexton might find it harder than most to get back to full fitness at this point and there looks like an absolutely gruelling season ahead where guys like Ross and Harry Byrne are going to get a lot of game time. In terms of balancing the books, Cullen and Easterby might simply tell Sexton they don't have a spot for him any longer.

I do think he's almost certainly going to remain involved in rugby in some form after he hangs up his boots. Whether he takes the ROG approach or the Cullen approach remains to be seen.

thomond2006 · 22-05-2020 7:16am

At the end of his contract, I'm not sure teams will offer the kind of money Sexton would demand to move in the first place. He'll be about to turn 36 and has a lot of injuries in the bank.

salmocab · 22-05-2020 7:17am

Buer wrote: »

I don't see Sexton leaving Leinster again given he has a young family and was quite open about how hard he found leaving last time.

His hand may be forced but, if he wants it, I could potentially see him getting another year at Leinster (not Ireland) bringing him to 2022 and retiring at 36. But things do tend to change very quickly in rugby once you reach a certain age. ROG was starting in the RWC in October 2011. He never started another game for Ireland and announces his retirement 18 months later after his form fell off a cliff.

With this lengthy break, Sexton might find it harder than most to get back to full fitness at this point and there looks like an absolutely gruelling season ahead where guys like Ross and Harry Byrne are going to get a lot of game time. In terms of balancing the books, Cullen and Easterby might simply tell Sexton they don't have a spot for him any longer.

I do think he's almost certainly going to remain involved in rugby in some form after he hangs up his boots. Whether he takes the ROG approach or the Cullen approach remains to be seen.

Funnily I think this lengthy break will benefit the older players, don’t think it will add years or anything but a few months of no contact must surely be good for the body.

sydthebeat · 22-05-2020 7:22am

If he's good enough, he gets the contract.
If he's not, he doesnt... Simple as.

A 35 year old Brian o driscoll was still the countries best center when he retired.

No reason currently that the same can't be said for Johnny

irishbucsfan · 22-05-2020 7:27am

salmocab wrote: »

Funnily I think this lengthy break will benefit the older players, don’t think it will add years or anything but a few months of no contact must surely be good for the body.

Completely depends on the player. It can be the exact opposite of what you need if you have a debilitating problem. I've a friend who is in that position now and is having to do external work with a specialist regularly just to ensure they can come back at all. There's lots of athletes from all kinds of sports in that position now.

Buer · 22-05-2020 7:30am

thomond2006 wrote: »

At the end of his contract, I'm not sure teams will offer the kind of money Sexton would demand to move in the first place. He'll be about to turn 36 and has a lot of injuries in the bank.

I don't think the money will be a key factor for him. After his trip to France and his top up deal over the past 5 years, I'd imagine things are pretty comfortable in the Sexton household.

I reckon he could take a 50% pay cut and still be on more money than some of his test level colleagues.

Buer · 22-05-2020 7:37am

salmocab wrote: »

Funnily I think this lengthy break will benefit the older players, don’t think it will add years or anything but a few months of no contact must surely be good for the body.

It will benefit in some ways, no doubt. But I think it will be an overall net negative in terms of how it pans out. He'll take longer to get back to match fitness at the start of the season and, whilst doing so, he'll be embarking on the toughest season of his career which will more than offset any benefit of the break, I'd reckon. If he wants to get through the season in one piece, his minutes will need to be managed to the extent where he's only a part time Leinster player, I'd suggest.

If we look at the current proposals floating about, the Pro14, 6N and Champions Cup still aim to finish. That's 2 test matches, 2 interpros and 5 knock out games before the 2020/21 season even commences which is going to be condensed into a much tighter schedule than normal. And this season culminates in a Lions tour (which he may or may not be going on).

errlloyd · 22-05-2020 9:01am

sydthebeat wrote: »

If he's good enough, he gets the contract.
If he's not, he doesnt... Simple as.

A 35 year old Brian o driscoll was still the countries best center when he retired.

No reason currently that the same can't be said for Johnny

ROG went off a cliff though. Think it was mentally more than physically.

thomond2006 · 22-05-2020 9:11am

Buer wrote: »

I don't think the money will be a key factor for him. After his trip to France and his top up deal over the past 5 years, I'd imagine things are pretty comfortable in the Sexton household.

I reckon he could take a 50% pay cut and still be on more money than some of his test level colleagues.

That was my point. It's going to take an unrealistic offer for him to lace up his boots elsewhere. The English clubs are talking about eliminating the marquee player space in their cap which would rule out a crazy offer from there and I imagine the French clubs will be scared away after Sexton's snake bitten time at Racing. Given everything he's achieved I would be surprised to see him move to another club.

Clegg · 22-05-2020 9:25am

errlloyd wrote: »

ROG went off a cliff though. Think it was mentally more than physically.

It was a gradual decline and then a sudden, steep drop off imo. ROG was dreadful in the 07 World Cup. Most our our players were, but he was a standout in that regard. He was very poor in 09 as well. He's remembered for the drop goal against Wakes, but less talked about is BOD having to bail him out after his terrible performance off the tee against England. He was poor for a few years until 2011 when he game just evaporated.

22-05-2020 9:27am

errlloyd wrote: »

ROG went off a cliff though. Think it was mentally more than physically.

I think RoG's lack of conditioning started to show towards the end of his career and he was playing behind an Ireland pack that wasn't all that bothered.

If you are in very good shape you can make up for the eventual drop offs but for RoG he started resorting to hail mary's and that's when the game is up.

Scottmactom · 22-05-2020 9:34am

Sextons form was.. eh.... patchy in 2019.

sydthebeat · 22-05-2020 9:39am

Scottmactom wrote: »

Sextons form was.. eh.... patchy in 2019.

Agreed.

That's why the start of the next season is vital for him (end of last season)

If he can pull out top end performances in the HC run in and 6Ns, he'll be in a lot stronger position to renew his contract.

Poor showings could take the choice from him

Clegg · 22-05-2020 9:41am

Scottmactom wrote: »

Sextons form was.. eh.... patchy in 2019.

True.

But he was the best player in the World in 2018. With this enforced break it can give him time to heal up and hopefully rediscover his best form.

Bazzo · 22-05-2020 9:42am

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Completely depends on the player. It can be the exact opposite of what you need if you have a debilitating problem. I've a friend who is in that position now and is having to do external work with a specialist regularly just to ensure they can come back at all. There's lots of athletes from all kinds of sports in that position now.

If he's not doing full contact drills with the Mrs in the garden then he's clearly not dedicated enough

Buer · 22-05-2020 9:43am

Scottmactom wrote: »

Sextons form was.. eh.... patchy in 2019.

In green, he was very hit and miss and well below his performances of 2018 which, in fairness, might never be matched again by an Irish 10 in our lives.

He was still, by a distance, the best outhalf at provincial level. His performances in the pool stages of the Champions Cup were excellent and he was probably Leinster's best player in those opening 3 games.

Scottmactom · 22-05-2020 9:55am

Outhalves playing pro rugby from Leinster with a senior cap for a province:

Jonathan Sexton(34/St. Marys/St. Marys) - Leinster
Ian Keatley(33/Belvedere/Clontarf) - Zebre
Ian Madigan(31/Blackrock/Blackrock) - Ulster
Ian McKinley(30/St. Columba's/Lansdowne) - Benetton
AJ MacGinty(30/Blackrock/Blackrock) - Sale
Noel Reid(30/St. Michaels/Clontarf) - Leicester
Cathal Marsh(28/St. Michaels/St. Marys) - RUNY
Ross Byrne(25/St. Michaels/UCD) - Leinster
Joey Carbery(24/Athy RFC-Blackrock/Clontarf) - Munster
Ciaran Frawley(22/Skerries RFC/UCD) - Leinster
Conor Dean(22/Blackrock/St. Marys) - Connacht
Harry Byrne(21/St. Michaels/Lansdowne) - Leinster

Bold = Played for Leinster

Academy outhalves:

David Hawkshaw(U21/Belvedere/Clontarf)
Tim Corkery(U19/Kilkenny RFC/UCD)

El_Duderino 09 · 22-05-2020 11:01am

Podge_irl wrote: »

Why would there be an inevitable falling out?

Because he has been the man for so long that he won't like being replaced and he might have Influence enough to prevent himself being replaced. I really think we need to move on from sexton at Ireland level. He's the best right now but if we're not careful he could be the top man in 2/3 years time as we approach the next world cup.

It would be terrible to have a 38 year old fly half at a world cup. But to plan to have a 38 year old fly half at a world cup is to plan a complete disaster. Didn't we learn anything from the Rory best experience last year?

Quin_Dub · 22-05-2020 11:58am

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Because he has been the man for so long that he won't like being replaced and he might have Influence enough to prevent himself being replaced. I really think we need to move on from sexton at Ireland level. He's the best right now but if we're not careful he could be the top man in 2/3 years time as we approach the next world cup.

It would be terrible to have a 38 year old fly half at a world cup. But to plan to have a 38 year old fly half at a world cup is to plan a complete disaster. Didn't we learn anything from the Rory best experience last year?

I'd agree - This coming season should really be the last one where Sexton is a guaranteed starter . By all means have him in the squad and so on , but who ever is the next in line , whether that's Carbery , R. Byrne or someone else needs to be starting the bigger games. They need to be starting against in Twickenham or Paris.

When Sexton does retire having the next guy in line only having ever started against Italy or Samoa and only have played the last 20 minutes in a bunch of other games is pointless.

The same applies to all positions to be honest , but half-back is the one where we rarely seem to take that risk.

Clegg · 22-05-2020 12:18pm

Quin_Dub wrote: »

I'd agree - This coming season should really be the last one where Sexton is a guaranteed starter . By all means have him in the squad and so on , but who ever is the next in line , whether that's Carbery , R. Byrne or someone else needs to be starting the bigger games. They need to be starting against in Twickenham or Paris.

When Sexton does retire having the next guy in line only having ever started against Italy or Samoa and only have played the last 20 minutes in a bunch of other games is pointless.

The same applies to all positions to be honest , but half-back is the one where we rarely seem to take that risk.

Sexton's injury problems have allowed Ross Byrne the chance to amass plenty of experience in crucial European games for Leinster. In terms of experience he's way ahead of Carbery at this stage. Lack of dynamism will hurt his chances at the highest level level though.

Carbery's move to Munster hasn't panned out the way he or the IRFU would have liked. His own injury woes and a lack of quality coaching have set him back.

Carry and Billy Burns are the other starting 10's. But neither strike me as good enough to excel at test level.

The answer? Strap a rocket to Harry Byrne and watch him go.

Quin_Dub · 22-05-2020 12:46pm

Clegg wrote: »

Sexton's injury problems have allowed Ross Byrne the chance to amass plenty of experience in crucial European games for Leinster. In terms of experience he's way ahead of Carbery at this stage. Lack of dynamism will hurt his chances at the highest level level though.

Carbery's move to Munster hasn't panned out the way he or the IRFU would have liked. His own injury woes and a lack of quality coaching have set him back.

Carry and Billy Burns are the other starting 10's. But neither strike me as good enough to excel at test level.

The answer? Strap a rocket to Harry Byrne and watch him go.

All fair points - The Who isn't really that important right now, fundamentally Ireland need to get better at succession planning.

One of thing things the All-Blacks do very well is blood players in big games, even when there's a "super-star" incumbent.

We tend to hang on , particularly in key positions like half-backs and the next guy up , even though they might have 30+ caps when the incumbent retires they will likely only a bare handful of starts in Big games and even then only in the event of injury.

Why for example , can't we have Sexton on the bench for the 6N's and have one of the others start the games ?

Topic for another thread though...

El_Duderino 09 · 22-05-2020 12:47pm

Quin_Dub wrote: »

I'd agree - This coming season should really be the last one where Sexton is a guaranteed starter . By all means have him in the squad and so on , but who ever is the next in line , whether that's Carbery , R. Byrne or someone else needs to be starting the bigger games. They need to be starting against in Twickenham or Paris.

When Sexton does retire having the next guy in line only having ever started against Italy or Samoa and only have played the last 20 minutes in a bunch of other games is pointless.

The same applies to all positions to be honest , but half-back is the one where we rarely seem to take that risk.

We do it at out half because we've had some great out halves. We did it at 13 when o driscoll was there too. Did it at Hooker when best was there. I think the temptation is there any time there's a great player and you're afraid to replace them. The sooner they build towards replacement, the better.

It's nothing personal against the incumbent. Rory best is a great guy and I'd recommend my sister to marry him, but he was the wrong man for the job in the world cup. He kept his place because of lack of a replacement. I hope the se thing does happen with sexton.

aloooof · 22-05-2020 12:49pm

Clegg wrote: »

Carbery's move to Munster hasn't panned out the way he or the IRFU would have liked. His own injury woes and a lack of quality coaching have set him back.

You can keep saying this, but I'll keep repeating that he's started exactly one game since Larkham has come in. It's far more the former than the latter.

aloooof · 22-05-2020 12:54pm

Quin_Dub wrote: »

All fair points - The Who isn't really that important right now, fundamentally Ireland need to get better at succession planning.

One of thing things the All-Blacks do very well is blood players in big games, even when there's a "super-star" incumbent.

We tend to hang on , particularly in key positions like half-backs and the next guy up , even though they might have 30+ caps when the incumbent retires they will likely only a bare handful of starts in Big games and even then only in the event of injury.

Why for example , can't we have Sexton on the bench for the 6N's and have one of the others start the games ?

Topic for another thread though...

I suspect it's largely because NZ have greater strength in depth. It's easier replace, say, Dan Carter with Beauden Barrett. Since Carter retired Barrett, Mounga, Sopoaga and Cruden have all had caps. We don't have anywhere near that quality.

Scottmactom · 22-05-2020 12:56pm

aloooof wrote: »

I suspect it's largely because NZ have greater strength in depth. It's easier replace, say, Dan Carter with Beauden Barrett. Since Carter retired Barrett, Mounga, Sopoaga and Cruden have all had caps. We don't have anywhere near that quality.

Plus someone like Carter retires from international rugby when he leaves to get paid opening up the 10 position.

Clegg · 22-05-2020 1:01pm

aloooof wrote: »

You can keep saying this, but I'll keep repeating that he's started exactly one game since Larkham has come in. It's far more the former than the latter.

It was a problem the season before Larkham joined as well. It's a legacy issue that hasn't been addressed. And Munster have as talented a half back line and back three as any. They're wasted in the way they set out. Carbery simply isn't in the right system he needs to flourish. The way the provinces set out their attacking structures are different, but Leinster have so many more onfield options to choose from once the 10 gets the ball.

aloooof · 22-05-2020 1:05pm

Clegg wrote: »

It was a problem the season before Larkham joined as well. It's a legacy issue that hasn't been addressed. And Munster have as talented a half back line and back three as any. They're wasted in the way they set out.

They've literally changed coaches. Felix Jones for Stephen Larkham. Yet it somehow hasn't been addressed?

Clegg · 22-05-2020 1:08pm

aloooof wrote: »

They've literally changed coaches. Felix Jones for Stephen Larkham. Yet it somehow hasn't been addressed?

Yes. Because things haven't changed a bit.

thomond2006 · 22-05-2020 1:15pm

Clegg wrote: »

Yes. Because things haven't changed a bit.

You've made that decision based on 103 minutes of rugby, coming off injury, with Munster this season?

He came off the bench against Leinster in Thomond, it's his first game since the RWC.
He started at Ulster in a mix and match lineup where Munster ended up completely overwhelmed.

His biggest issue by far has been his unavailability. He gets injured in training in January requiring surgery and then opts for another surgery on an existing problem. What has that got to do with the Munster coaches? Between Ireland and Munster he's played 218 minutes since August 2019.

aloooof · 22-05-2020 1:16pm

Clegg wrote: »

Yes. Because things haven't changed a bit.

There was a marked change in how Munster played this season.

And again, Carbery started exactly one game in that new system. You seem to be drawing a massive conclusion on Carbery based on that one game.

Clegg · 22-05-2020 1:27pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

You've made that decision based on 103 minutes of rugby, coming off injury, with Munster this season?

He came off the bench against Leinster in Thomond, it's his first game since the RWC.
He started at Ulster in a mix and match lineup where Munster ended up completely overwhelmed.

His biggest issue by far has been his unavailability. He gets injured in training in January requiring surgery and then opts for another surgery on an existing problem. What has that got to do with the Munster coaches? Between Ireland and Munster he's played 218 minutes since August 2019.

The point of my argument is that Munster lack the quality of coaching needed to develop Carbery's game. Yes, injuries have hampered his development quite a bit, but the bigger issue, for me, is the Munster system which does not get the best out of players such as he.

thomond2006 · 22-05-2020 1:30pm

Clegg wrote: »

The point of my argument is that Munster lack the quality of coaching needed to develop Carbery's game. Yes, injuries have hampered his development quite a bit, but the bigger issue, for me, is the Munster system which does not get the best out of players such as he.

Can you point to a player in recent years who got out of Munster, who did not get the best out of him, and went on to better things?

"Quite a bit" is putting it mildly. In 2019/20 you could have had Graham Henry and Wayne Smith at Munster and it wouldn't make a bit of difference. So really we're only talking about 2018/19 with a different set of assistant coaches. That season Carbery was average at worst, with Castres away being a low point and Gloucester away a high point. He also missed six weeks that season through injury in the QF against Edinburgh.

You could end up being correct but if Carbery doesn't work out injury and the lack of pitchtime will be a major reason why.

aloooof · 22-05-2020 1:37pm

Clegg wrote: »

The point of my argument is that Munster lack the quality of coaching needed to develop Carbery's game. Yes, injuries have hampered his development quite a bit, but the bigger issue, for me, is the Munster system which does not get the best out of players such as he.

But again. He's played exactly 103 minutes in that system. So how can you know this?

Either that or you seem to be judging Carbery's development based on the performances of other players in the Munster system this season. I'll let you spot the issue with the logic there.

Clegg · 22-05-2020 2:12pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

Can you point to a player in recent years who got out of Munster, who did not get the best out of him, and went on to better things?

"Quite a bit" is putting it mildly. In 2019/20 you could have had Graham Henry and Wayne Smith at Munster and it wouldn't make a bit of difference. So really we're only talking about 2018/19 with a different set of assistant coaches. That season Carbery was average at worst, with Castres away being a low point and Gloucester away a high point. He also missed six weeks that season through injury in the QF against Edinburgh.

You could end up being correct but if Carbery doesn't work out injury and the lack of pitchtime will be a major reason why.

It'll absolutely be a mix of those things. I don't dispute that at all. Tbf I alluded to that in my original post. Carbery's move hasn't gone the way anyone wanted through a mixture of injury and coaching.

Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread XI (The Finals Countdown)

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