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You know God exists. Now thats either true or its not. Your opinion matters.
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I'd never hear the phrase omnibenevolent being used before. I thought the God person was meant to be Omnipotent, Omniscient and Omnipresent. Which is fine,, the bible is the word of God, doesn't mean he or who ever wrote it on his behalf was telling the truth.
Omnipotent - could be, so God chooses to do nothing ever,
Omniscient - he knows everything except the bible often disagrees with this, but again, maybe the God thing is a bit of a d1ck and gets a kick out of winding people up
Omnipresent - so he is everywhere, or has the choice to be, weird and pretty much unnecessary if he is the first two as he knows everything already, so he could be omnipotent and only go to the places he wants to be, as he knows about everywhere else0 -
Which is fine,, the bible is the word of God, doesn't mean he or who ever wrote it on his behalf was telling the truth.
If the bible isn't telling the truth, the whole God thing pretty much falls asunder. After all, we only know about all those other omni attributes because the bible tells about them. I swear, you couldn't make this stuff up. Or could you... :pac:0 -
As harsh as this may seem, spirit does not hold the human form in the same regard as we ourselves do, it is considered more the vehicle of transport for the soul in this life time, I dont normally quote from the Bible, but I do believe that was what Jesus was referring to when he said, "Let the dead, bury the dead."
There seems to be a lot of people getting there information from the Bible, and thats fine if it works for you, but I would advocate a more direct route, first hand experience is a must anything else is hearsay.
Free will is the ability to choose between different possible courses of action unimpeded, before a spirit comes into human form, it chooses its parents, its life experience, during its life experience it chooses how it reacts, whether it accepts its fate, or reacts differently, for a young child, it could be a chance for spiritual growth for the parents, do they become bitter and resentful or take solace in the fact a soul choose to spend that small amount of time with them, out of all the people on the planet.
Your children come through you, they are not for you, and though they are with you, they do not belong to you.0 -
For those that take on a spiritual path, as they travel along their journey, it is true each path is individual, but there are many common truths that each will encounter.
You speak of people seeking the truth and coming up with contradictory proofs, is that different religions you mean, Im not quite sure what you are referring too, maybe you could give an example.0 -
The abject poverty, starving and diseased people of the world are not the result of God, but the sheer greed of the rest of mankind, who standby and allow this to happen to his fellow man.
The US military fund alone could end poverty.
It is not a reflection on God, but us.0 -
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The abject poverty, starving and diseased people of the world are not the result of God, but the sheer greed of the rest of mankind, who standby and allow this to happen to his fellow man.
The US military fund alone could end poverty. It is not a reflection on God, but us.
Very true, particularly if you, like most of us on this forum, are of the opinion that God doesn't exist in the first place. Organised religion on the other hand is man made and has a long and bloody history. If we consider the abject poverty of many, and all its attendant woes, a result of human greed, how many of those greedy humans would call themselves Christian? The US military for example is primarily made up of gun toting Christians.0 -
Experiences during meditation are just that, we can ask questions and get the answer in meditation, but that experience is in our heads only.
I do not consider it evidence until it spills over into this reality, the connection has to be seen from the spiritual to the physical, otherwise it is all just nonsense.
The fact that you believe something and then see evidence in this reality, shows there is a connection between thought and this reality, and that thought effects this reality.
It works on every level, if you grow up with low self esteem and self doubt, chances are you will not get very far in life, life coaches teach this very idea, positive thinking.
Having belief in yourself and confidence, there is a far greater chance of succeeding in life.
Hence the phrase, "Fake it, till you make it.
TO say that believing in something first and then seeing the evidence is not evidence, I truly dont know what to say to that.
Jesus Christ was always referred to as "Master", what was he master of, the mind, everything starts with thought, then belief, then effort then the materialization of the goal or object.0 -
There is a disconnect here, religion is man made, there maybe some down through the ages who were involved in religion who made genuine progress on the spiritual path, and there might even be today, but for the large part it is a money making organisation, who down through the ages have shed blood, and sucked money from those ill able to afford it.
Heres the difference, someone who has made progress on a spiritual path could not take another life, those who hide under the banner of religion and murder for power and money or abuse children are not connected to God, but to their own spiritual ego of self importance and self righteousness.0 -
There is a disconnect here, religion is man made, there maybe some down through the ages who were involved in religion who made genuine progress on the spiritual path, and there might even be today, but for the large part it is a money making organisation, who down through the ages have shed blood, and sucked money from those ill able to afford it.
Heres the difference, someone who has made progress on a spiritual path could not take another life, those who hide under the banner of religion and murder for power and money or abuse children are not connected to God, but to their own spiritual ego of self importance and self righteousness.
The notion that any kind of incorporeal spirit exists is also man made. You might believe it to be true, just as other might believe in the existence of a blue elephant god. Believing something to be true or wanting something to be true does not make that thing true in any objective sense though.0 -
And that is where we differ greatly, spirit is not man made, does exist and can be experienced both on a spiritual level and in this physical reality.0
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You made a series of posts already which I and a few others replied. You ignored all those replies and have simply made another string of posts.
I am curious to know therefore.... since it will determine how I engage with you in the future.... if your main intention here is two way adult mature conversation..... or to soapbox sermons at us?spirit does not hold the human form in the same regard as we ourselves do, it is considered more the vehicle of transport for the soul in this life time
Please define your terms. What is "spirit" exactly and how do you substantiate it's existence.
In a debate between Dan Barker and the unfortunately named Kyle Butt, Butt kept using the word "spirit". Dan Barker therefore asked him to define it like I just asked you.
Speaking out of an orifice more in line with his surname than his thesis, Butt was comically unable to do it. He trotted out a long definition which was a string of words telling the audience everything spirit is NOT. Not one word of his "definition" said what spirit IS.
He was therefore of course entirely unable to substantiate the existence of the thing, given he lacked any substantive definition of it.
Maybe you can do better?I would advocate a more direct route, first hand experience is a must anything else is hearsay.
How very contrived and convenient of you, that the form of evidence you elevate to the highest level.... is the form of evidence that just happens to be LEAST amenable to scrutiny and rebuttal.
However personal testimony in other areas of discourse seems to be steadily getting a bad rap for being less than reliable even at the best of times.Free will is the ability to choose between different possible courses of action unimpeded
Given you simply ignored my post to you before, and continued with your sermon.... I have to repeat my question. Have you ANY evidence that free will actually exists? It is by no means taken as a given in many realms of philosophy.that experience is in our heads only.
As is all the "first hand experience" you speak of in an early post in your sermon.The fact that you believe something and then see evidence
Which "you" do you refer to here, because you are not speaking for me. For me the evidence comes first, belief second. Not the other way around as you describe here.It works on every level, if you grow up with low self esteem and self doubt, chances are you will not get very far in life
Not sure how true that is at all. Many successful people, especially in the arts, report being plagued by self doubt all the time, and suffer from issues of self esteem. In fact sometimes rather than hamper then, it drives them. And "positive thinking" in contrast can help some, but hinder others. There is no one size fits all here despite your fantasy narrative on the subject.
What any of this has to do with "god" and "spirit" however is a mystery to me. You appear to be doing a Gish Gallop of rabbit holes and tangents without linking any of it to any thesis, topic or common theme.
For all the sense and relevance you are making here you might as well shout "There is a god/spirit" and then move to telling us the best recipe for Guccamole you ever found.TO say that believing in something first and then seeing the evidence is not evidence, I truly dont know what to say to that.
Agreed, I have no doubt you do not know what to say to it. But there is good reason one of the main agendas of the scientific method is to weed out confirmation bias. The problems associated with having a belief in a truth first, and fitting or interpreting the evidence to it later are well known and well documented.
And it is not just in science this is an issue. But in all areas of our life. For example if you really believe a spouse is cheating on you, despite no evidence they are, you will suddenly start parsing everything through that narrative. A spouse may simply be delayed a long time in traffic on the way home, but under the rubric of the pre-belief of infidelity the spouse is actually off having a great time in someone elses bed in this time. And evidence not fitting that narrative may be ignored.everything starts with thought, then belief, then effort then the materialization of the goal or object.
Speak, as I said, for yourself. Do not pretend, least of all for me, to speak for others.spirit is not man made, does exist
<Definitions needed>
<Citations needed>
<Substantiation needed>
This forum tends not to go much into "Truth by assertion" you see. In fact it tends after a short time to get the ire of the moderation team. Can I ask you directly to substantiate your claims therefore?0 -
Yes God exists, for all0
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This post is for Nozzferrahhtoo.
In reply to your statement that the posts others made were ignored, did you read the second list of posts, or sermons as you state.
I do believe I answered each in turn, your first reply mentioned, meditation experiences and belief before evidence, both were addressed in the fourth post, you also mentioned free will which was covered in the first post, if you wish to engage in a two way mature adult conservation, then maybe you should act like a mature adult and not try to patronize with threats of the moderation team and assume when a statement is made, it is made on behalf of everyone.
Your inability to understand stems from the fact that you work solely from the confines of the limited logical mind, to know that anything exists beyond that will escape you.
The spiritual is not material, it cannot be seen under a microscope or measured with any of your scientific equipment.
Spirit is the life force itself, there are those who can sense the presence and engage with spirit, those restricted to the five senses only, will not, is it too hard to conceive that we have latent abilities that can be developed.
As regards your cheating spouse, if you believe that, then look for evidence, if you find none then maybe she isint, if you find evidence, then maybe she is.
Are you of the opinion, we cling to our beliefs, with nothing to back it up.
The crux of the matter is you dont understand how limited and small the logical mind is, and why should you. you have never gone beyond it.0 -
if you wish to engage in a two way mature adult conservation, then maybe you should act like a mature adult and not try to patronize with threats of the moderation team and assume when a statement is made, it is made on behalf of everyone.
Your inability to understand stems from the fact that you work solely from the confines of the limited logical mind, to know that anything exists beyond that will escape you.
Mod warning: Personal attacks such as the above are against the charter of this forum. Please take a moment to read the charter before posting again.
When replying to a point made by another poster, please use the quote option to quote the poster so everyone else knows who you're talking to and which point of theirs you are addressing. To address a poster more generally, the shorthand here is to use the @ symbol, e.g. if I wanted to address you I'd use @iceman. Thanks for your attention.0 -
The spiritual is not material, it cannot be seen under a microscope or measured with any of your scientific equipment.
The same could be said for the imaginary. How exactly do you demonstrably distinguish what you perceive to be real, e.g. the spiritual, from what you imagine to be real?0 -
The same could be said for the imaginary. How exactly do you demonstrably distinguish what you perceive to be real, e.g. the spiritual, from what you imagine to be real?
How can you give a warning to a person defending his beliefs yet in your next post make fun of them. Are you an idiot? Or just a bully?0 -
Iamabeliever wrote: »How can you give a warning to a person defending his beliefs yet in your next post make fun of them. Are you an idiot? Or just a bully?
Mod warning: Carded for personal abuse. As with the previous poster, it is acceptable to attack someone's opinion or beliefs but not their person as you have just done above. It is also against the charter to question moderation in-thread, we have a feedback thread here for that. Please also note that this is the atheist and agnostics forum, where most regular posters consider religious belief specious and tend to be critical of it. If you're not happy about having your beliefs examined under a critical eye, this is perhaps not the right forum to declare them. Thanks for your attention.0 -
I work with a guy who 'knows' that god exists and has an in-built distrust of science.
So that's it really, when somebody 'knows' something you don't and truly believes that to be the case then it's impossible to debate with them. To be fair he has a great sense of humour though and we have good craic with him but he truly believe us unbelievers are all deceived.
Incidentally:
- He also believes the Earth is flat
- Space doesn't exists (we're all living in a dome)
- There are hidden signals and clues to the occult absolutely everywhere (such as the recurrence of the number 33, the 666 hand signal, 9/11 being revealed many times before it happened in things like the Simpsons, the Matrix and Loony tones etc etc etc)
- Basically all terrorist attacks are fake, ie they're all staged, with dummies, fake guns, fake victims, fake blood and so on
I have to say, lunchtime is never dull!! :-)0 -
No, none of your posts were directed at me. You are new the forum, perhaps you could check how it works before going off on on, or just ask if you need help. We are a helpful bunch you know.you also mentioned free will which was covered in the first post
But it wasn't "addressed" now was it? What you did in a post was give your own personal definition of what you think Free Will means. Did I ask you for that? No. I did not. This is why your posts do not / did not appear to be directed at me. You did not actually reply to anything I said or asked.
What I asked was not for a definition of free will, but your evidence that we actually HAVE it. If I ask for evidence you have cake, you would not give me the recipe for what cake contains. I already know what cake is.Your inability to understand stems from the fact that you work solely from the confines of the limited logical mind, to know that anything exists beyond that will escape you.
It is a common theist trope around here that when a theist has no evidence for their claims, they instead pretend that is not their failing, but because their target/mark is lacking in some way. It has not convinced or tricked anyone before, so do not expect you trying the same move will do so today. This "You just do not understand because you lack some skill/ability/faculty that I have" is a complete canard. Raise your game please.
It is funny that you mention logic though. Your tacit statement therefore is that to agree with your claims and ideas, we must be illogical. This much I would 100% agree with you on, I have no doubt that is the requirement you would need.The spiritual is not material, it cannot be seen under a microscope or measured with any of your scientific equipment.
Oh look, just like Kyle Butt rather than tell us what it IS, you begin by listing the things it is NOT. I so called it.Spirit is the life force itself, there are those who can sense the presence and engage with spirit, those restricted to the five senses only, will not, is it too hard to conceive that we have latent abilities that can be developed.
It is also not "hard to conceive" that you have 12 arms and three heads. But something being easy to conceive is not even remotely evidence that it is true or credible. If the best you can say for your positions on this thread is that they are "easy to conceive" then again we are 100% agreement. They are very simplistic and remarkably "easy to conceive".
But being easy to conceive is NOT evidence that "spirit" or this "life force" of yours actually exists. So once again rather than replying to my rebuttals and questions, you are merely giving me a sermon on what you believe. WHAT You believe is clear. It is the WHY you believe it that is opaque to me and.... I am beginning to suspect.... to you too.As regards your cheating spouse, if you believe that, then look for evidence, if you find none then maybe she isint, if you find evidence, then maybe she is.
Way to miss the point there. The point is that if I start with the belief a spouse is cheating FIRST, then I will be more than capable of finding things that fit it as "evidence" second. That is the problem with belief before evidence, rather than belief as a consequence of evidence.
What you appear not to understand with the word "evidence" is the difference between data that supports a claim, and data that is merely congruent to a claim. When you admonish us to believe first and seek evidence second, you are simply recommending the latter form.0 -
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Iamabeliever wrote: »How can you give a warning to a person defending his beliefs yet in your next post make fun of them. Are you an idiot? Or just a bully?
No one made fun of anyone. It is a valid question the user above asked. If one defines something as "not material, it cannot be seen under a microscope or measured with any of your scientific equipment" then a valid question to ask is how you can distinguish between that and anything else that you simply imagine. Because something you simply imagine WILL fit the same definition.
How that comes across as "making fun" of anyone, is really a puzzle to me.0 -
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I think it is fair to say that if someone sits there and asks for proof of God, it cannot be done, its not possible.
The only way for this to happen is through searching yourself, spiritual practices etc, that is why I say personal experience.
Once you have had personal experience, you will be in no doubt whether it is imaginary or not, and thats the bottom line, the evidence lies in your own experience.
But look at it this way, just for a moment, lets say God exists and is responsible for all creation, we as individuals, in the grand scheme of things, are tiny, insignificant, but we feel God should come and prove himself to us.
I would find it a more balanced view, if someone did partake in spiritual practice for a period of time and then proclaimed it didnt work.
I have stated before the evidence can spill over into this reality, but again it is personal experience.
The main bugbears so far seem to be putting the cart before the horse, I do not believe it is a die-hard belief needed at the start, more so an open mind, you can still remain critical of anything evidence wise that comes your way, Iam not advocating you have a die-hard belief and then go searching for evidence and except everything without question, no, the experiences will come by themselves.
The other bugbear seems to be free will, was it not free will that was exercised when you got up this morning, when you decided to post on said forum, but we probably want more extreme examples, so I will give a personal one, my wife had a tumor removed from her spine when she was twenty seven, at the prime of her life, she worked in the medical profession, and was very logical and scientific. Since the tumor was removed her mobility has suffered and she has been left in chronic pain, all day, everyday, her career finished. Does she have free will, or was it taken away from her. Her response, she had the free will to re-act the way of her choice, constant pain has forced her to live in the now, she could have become very bitter, she didn't, she appreciates the small things in life once taken for granted, she realizes its not all about the material and possessions and feels she has grown as a person.
Just because the decisions facing us become harsh, doesn't mean we haven't got free will.0 -
Hotblack Desiato wrote: »How conveeenient.
A rather dull response might I add...
As much charisma as a dirty rag flopping on a brittle clothes line.
There's a lot of variables in people's ideas of spirituality and whether they're Christian, Atheist or new age they can all live a spiritual lifestyle.
I see people in here quote scientists and researchers, holy books and other people's ideas basically plagiarism to the highest order..
Posting other people's interpretations then using it to put themselves up on a wet cardboard platform.....it's fallen down before one's standing on top.
It's easy to emulate Dawkins or other atheists, and then use it to gain points in a debate.
There's a lot of spiritual Atheists and Agnostics out there and they understand spirituality.
It's a very simple way of living, uncomplicated and it opens up the mind...
My way of life ain't for everyone, but it's not better than anyone elses...0 -
I believe in the illusion of free will, that I feel like I made a choice everyday. I don't mean this in the sociological context of something or someone is controlling me and I don't realise it (although that could easily be true). I mean it in the Mathematical way. Atoms, Electrons, sub atomic particles from the beginning of teh universe have a set of rules that they abide by, we don't know all of them but they are there. From the very first moment, they have reacted to all the other particles around them in regards to these rules. From this moment onwards, they would always act a specific way, bounce a specific way and always end up with me at a laptop with the illusion of free will.
I don't think this is a bad thing, it is quite fascinating, the perception of free will is more than enough and is indistinguisahable from free will from our way we observe the universe and probably always will be.
As for God, I think they are all a nice trick of the mind to help us deal with the fact that we are nothing, mean nothing and can't deal with the fact that nothing will change this. It is a nice comfort for some, i no longer need it but manny do and let them at it so long as they don't mess up my day.0 -
My way of life ain't for everyone, but it's not better than anyone elses...
That's fine, it works for you so go for it. I think the problems start happening when people start presenting their beliefs as undeniable truths that others should accept and live their lives accordingly. In this case, they should be able to evidence their beliefs if they are to have any kind of a convincing argument. Someone tells me they're Christian, Muslim, Wiccan, or Jedi I've absolutely no problem with it. The problem happens if they tell me I should also become Christian, Muslim, Wiccan, or Jedi or whatever, or try to teach it to my kids. Likewise if they try to set down rules as to who can or cannot get married, have sex, or engage in planned parenthood.0 -
I think it is fair to say that if someone sits there and asks for proof of God, it cannot be done, its not possible.
The only way for this to happen is through searching yourself, spiritual practices etc, that is why I say personal experience.
Once you have had personal experience, you will be in no doubt whether it is imaginary or not, and thats the bottom line, the evidence lies in your own experience.
Given that everyone with contradictory ideas of god can't all be right, does that not mean that personal experience is insufficient to determine the existence of god?0 -
spirit is not man made, does exist and can be experienced both on a spiritual level and in this physical reality.The spiritual is not material, it cannot be seen under a microscope or measured with any of your scientific equipment.
You have contradicted yourself.
If something can be experienced physically then it can be measured scientifically.
If something cannot be in any scientifically measured, then how is it distinguishable from not existing?0 -
Mark Hamill wrote: »You have contradicted yourself.
If something can be experienced physically then it can be measured scientifically.
If something cannot be in any scientifically measured, then how is it distinguishable from not existing?
This is like new age woo... your post is not making any sense or reason.
Can you post this in layman's terms please.
It's hard on the head.0 -
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Call a spade a spade, I notice a lot of anti religion and spirituality and point's being scored on this forum, collective thanking and moderators taking the atheists side more frequently, and shutting people down and ruining some banter and the odd squabble which could be sorted out here rather than face the rath of somewhere else to sort out the problems...
What I see is a lot of critical discussion of theistic and spiritualist claims, well written and thought out posts receiving thanks from other posters who appreciate the points made and effort invested, and moderators working quite well with posters to keep discussions moving.
The other thing I am seeing is posters who don't like their ill-thought religious and spiritual crutches being deconstructed in front of them, aghast that the mods don't step in and rescue them from the nasty atheists with their offensive reasoning and logic.
I am sure that you are not one of these people and that you actually have plenty of evidence of your claims happening in this thread.So in effect if this forum represents Atheism as a whole on board's it's quite PC sterile and boring... don't question a mod, you're banned because you questioned a mod ?
One more infraction and you're out, it's like school..
Then the mod puts up a smart comment...so and so are taking a break for a few days to cool down and the usual happy clapper's giving it a like.
Seriously, there needs to be a bit of room for heated debates and discussions...
There is a feedback thread to discuss this kind of thing and I would genuinely like to continue discussing this with you there because I honestly have no idea what you are talking about. The only times I have seen mods exercise their powers is when posters are directly insulting someone or ignoring direct mod instructions and they are very lenient when they do use their powers (any other forum on this site where calling a mod an idiot to their face would only get you an infraction?).This place used to be very popular and entertaining now it's been run like a politically correct Californian college campus...one strike and you're infracted...
A bit like what Atheism doesn't stand for...ye left the church and religion only to create something that's so similar.
Very much like the Abrahamic dogma without the god head in charge.
It is still entertaining, maybe the problem is that your posts and banter aren't as entertaining as you think you are?0
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