Amazon, Jeff Bezos and Billionaires, we're through the looking glass people!

completedit · 15-05-2020 11:19AM #1

America has record high unemployment, in the meantime Bezos and Amazon have amassed an extra 30 billion over the past couple of months, PROFITING from the pandemic. The richest man in America is PROFITING off an event that has brought the economy and many businesses hanging on by a thread if they haven't ceased to exist already.

One on hand, I respect him, he has climbed the ladder and achieved peak capitalism(he is the son of a 16 year old Cuban immigrant which is pretty incredible) but on the other hand, is it morally wrong that people can amass such wealth and give so little back?

I used to think the idea that it simply the market mechanism at play and hey, who can question the market and put a full stop to my questions(same logic when it came to footballers making obscene amounts) but no, the market should suit us as a society, not the elite few who have the gifts to capitalize off it.

lawred2 · 15-05-2020 11:20AM

completedit wrote: »

America has record high unemployment, in the meantime Bezos and Amazon have amassed an extra 30 million PROFITING from the pandemic. The richest man in America is PROFITING off an event that has brought the economy to a standstill.

One on hand, I respect him, he has climbed the ladder and achieved peak capitalism(he is the son of a 16 year old Cuban immigrant which is pretty incredible) but on the other hand, is it morally wrong that people can amass such wealth and give so little back?

I used to think the idea that it simply the market mechanism at play and hey, who can question the market and put a full stop to my questions(same logic when it came to footballers making obscene amounts) but no, the market should suit us as a society, not the elite few who have the gifts to capitalize off it.

I'd say you're well off there

completedit · 15-05-2020 11:21AM

Billion sorry

LeYouth · 15-05-2020 11:25AM

Just ask him for a few quid. Be grand.

Dravokivich · 15-05-2020 11:25AM

What are you getting at? He runs a web store, that people are confident in. He provides online services, that people want. He provides cloud services, that companies want.

While there's issues with the management of the workforce. There's nothing different now, than there was 3 months ago. Other than, more people buying there, because it's a website they are confident in using.

Should we be using Wish instead?

EmmetSpiceland · 15-05-2020 11:26AM

It’s goddamned unAmerican not to profit from a national crisis.

Lurching · 15-05-2020 11:29AM

I have no issue with people making enormous amounts of money.
I'd prefer if they did give back in terms of enormous charitable donations (who needs over $100bn anyway).

What really annoys me is that they won't spend it. I know a huge proportion of Bezos money is only on paper and is tied up in investments, but a huge portion would also be cash in his account.
Sitting on this cash means (in the absence of quantitative easing) that less well off people have even less money.

15-05-2020 11:31AM

Heads we win, tails you lose.

completedit · 15-05-2020 11:42AM

Dravokivich wrote: »

What are you getting at? He runs a web store, that people are confident in. He provides online services, that people want. He provides cloud services, that companies want.

While there's issues with the management of the workforce. There's nothing different now, than there was 3 months ago. Other than, more people buying there, because it's a website they are confident in using.

Should we be using Wish instead?

So why is it fair that American workers real wages have stagnated since the 70's and the gap between the head honchos and labor has diverged so much, even though labor productivity has soared? Yes Bezos showed great foresight and ingenuity and that has led to over 900,000 jobs and that is one of the good sides of capitalism, I benefit from Prime which is a great service. But it's just wrong when the facts are so blatant. Bezo's said he hasn't enough to spend his fortune on philanthropic efforts so will invest towards getting to space, how about an increase in the wage of some of the workers behind your success?

What's the end game in all this? Bezo's just cultivates billions and billions, buys up more and more businesses and then we have one man with supreme leverage over the population because he sells cloud services and a platform for watching shows?

mikhail · 15-05-2020 11:44AM

A lot of that extra Amazon money is profits that would otherwise be in the hands of Wallmart's, K-Mart's, Target's, etc. shareholders. Cry me a river for them.

This is a separate issue from worker pay, of course.

cj maxx · 15-05-2020 11:45AM

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

It’s goddamned unAmerican not to profit from a national crisis.

I view it the same as when in Forrest Gump all the shrimp boats were sunk apart from his, and he became a shrimp millionaire off that.
Amazon's business has been going for years with that model.
If covid19 makes them the only player in town, well that's just good fortune for them

randd1 · 15-05-2020 11:53AM

completedit wrote: »

America has record high unemployment, in the meantime Bezos and Amazon have amassed an extra 30 billion over the past couple of months, PROFITING from the pandemic. The richest man in America is PROFITING off an event that has brought the economy and many businesses hanging on by a thread if they haven't ceased to exist already.

One on hand, I respect him, he has climbed the ladder and achieved peak capitalism(he is the son of a 16 year old Cuban immigrant which is pretty incredible) but on the other hand, is it morally wrong that people can amass such wealth and give so little back?

I used to think the idea that it simply the market mechanism at play and hey, who can question the market and put a full stop to my questions(same logic when it came to footballers making obscene amounts) but no, the market should suit us as a society, not the elite few who have the gifts to capitalize off it.

Americans don't like taxing the wealthy. It's too close to socialism for them.

And they just don't like socialism, even if it benefits them, or if they stupidly don't realize that quite a fair bit of their country is socialist be definition. But they don't like socialism.

So accumulate away there Jeff, it's the American thing to do.

Dravokivich · 15-05-2020 12:01PM

completedit wrote: »

So why is it fair that American workers real wages have stagnated since the 70's and the gap between the head honchos and labor has diverged so much, even though labor productivity has soared? Yes Bezos showed great foresight and ingenuity and that has led to over 900,000 jobs and that is one of the good sides of capitalism, I benefit from Prime which is a great service. But it's just wrong when the facts are so blatant. Bezo's said he hasn't enough to spend his fortune on philanthropic efforts so will invest towards getting to space, how about an increase in the wage of some of the workers behind your success?

What's the end game in all this? Bezo's just cultivates billions and billions, buys up more and more businesses and then we have one man with supreme leverage over the population because he sells cloud services and a platform for watching shows?

You use his services. You give out about him making money because a lot of people use his services. Especially during this recent issue of Covid-19 when there's less access to shops.

Ok, so as I asked earlier what are you getting at? Oh... so your "he's getting rich because of covid-19" fell flat because it turns out, you're contributing to it. You start to lead into social issues and wage issues that we won't have a say in. And is pretty much a systemic issue in the USA, that extends beyond any number of popular shops/websites. They've a society and market setup that requires multiple incomes into a household.

But how is that Bezo's fault? With Amazon been given more money by you. During this?

Sheeps · 15-05-2020 12:08PM

There's no moral argument for billionaires to exist. I'm all for allowing people to be rewarded for their effort, but there is no amount of effort one person can ever do in a single life time that justifies the channelling of wealth to such a focal point as to create a billionaire. It's just not right.

Amazon is a great and I use it frequently and I wont blame Bezos for being rich. The issue is only changable through society and legislatively.

4068ac1elhodqr · 15-05-2020 12:32PM

Bezos, Gates & Buffet (3 people), are equal in wealth to well over 1/2 (160million+) of all Americans (320m).

Which in turn is likely equal to a couple of billion people in the rest of the world.

neris · 15-05-2020 12:35PM

You do realise alot of that "wealth" is stock ownership and not cash sitting in the bank

4068ac1elhodqr · 15-05-2020 12:41PM

Stock ownership can be sold at any point, and turned to cash in the bank, the reason for holding 51%+ stock is control, lower dividend tax, and expectation of further gains.

One eyed Jack · 15-05-2020 01:13PM

completedit wrote: »

America has record high unemployment, in the meantime Bezos and Amazon have amassed an extra 30 billion over the past couple of months, PROFITING from the pandemic. The richest man in America is PROFITING off an event that has brought the economy and many businesses hanging on by a thread if they haven't ceased to exist already.

One on hand, I respect him, he has climbed the ladder and achieved peak capitalism(he is the son of a 16 year old Cuban immigrant which is pretty incredible) but on the other hand, is it morally wrong that people can amass such wealth and give so little back?

I used to think the idea that it simply the market mechanism at play and hey, who can question the market and put a full stop to my questions(same logic when it came to footballers making obscene amounts) but no, the market should suit us as a society, not the elite few who have the gifts to capitalize off it.

You don’t live in America though?

As you point out yourself, he’s the son of a Cuban immigrant, who used his brain to get to where he is, that’s not peak capitalism, that’s peak knowledge economy.

It’s not the least bit morally wrong that people can amass such wealth and give back so little, they’re under no obligation to, and were you in his circumstances I’ve no doubt you’d feel the same way he does (having had the exact same experiences to get to where he is), but because you don’t have it, you imagine it’s wrong that he does.

His company aren’t profiting off any pandemic either btw, in fact what they did do was stopped sellers profiting off the pandemic by restricting sales of PPE equipment on Amazon -

‘Everybody and His Dog Is Trying to Sell Medical Equipment’

SEPT 23 1989 · 15-05-2020 01:20PM

Is he happy though?

Muahahaha · 15-05-2020 01:41PM

Must say I admire Bezos, its astonishing what he has achieved. They're basically a logistics company who sorted out unbelievably efficient online delivery. There were lots of companies like DHL, Fed-Ex who were perfectly positioned to dominate that space but Bezos came in and shat all over them. Walmart, Tesco, Carrefour, Target, etc are all giants of retail and he's shat all over them as well.

Though now hes worth some $130bn it would be nice to hear he's going to go down the Bill Gates/Mark Zuckerburg route and do something useful with it.

Ipso · 15-05-2020 04:29PM

randd1 wrote: »

Americans don't like taxing the wealthy. It's too close to socialism for them.

And they just don't like socialism, even if it benefits them, or if they stupidly don't realize that quite a fair bit of their country is socialist be definition. But they don't like socialism.

So accumulate away there Jeff, it's the American thing to do.

The cheek of them, if it weren't for their ignorance they could be like Cuba or Venezuela.

Earthhorse · 15-05-2020 04:34PM

The issue I have with companies like Amazon, Google, Apple etc. all of whose products I use and enjoy is that they don't pay their fair share of tax.

If they did that I might be happier with the inordinate amounts of money they make.

Zebra3 · 15-05-2020 04:36PM

Ipso wrote: »

The cheek of them, if it weren't for their ignorance they could be like Cuba or Venezuela.

Or Haiti.

Oh wait, can't mention that country.

raze_them_all_ · 15-05-2020 04:40PM

Sheeps wrote: »

There's no moral argument for billionaires to exist. I'm all for allowing people to be rewarded for their effort, but there is no amount of effort one person can ever do in a single life time that justifies the channelling of wealth to such a focal point as to create a billionaire. It's just not right.

Amazon is a great and I use it frequently and I wont blame Bezos for being rich. The issue is only changable through society and legislatively.

If I found a way to cure cancer/aids. Sold it for 300 a pop and became a billionaire people like you would complain that I didn't cure some other disease for free

Corben Dallas · 15-05-2020 04:43PM

Some say Profiteering from a Pandemic... others say... Fully utilizing his market position by raking in revenue because of his effective monopoly. Success!

Jeff Bezos has seen his net worth grow by 25 billion since the start of the pandemic.... and also said that his "investors may want to take seat" which one might take to mean... yes the company has made $4 billion in profit (1stQ earnings this year I believe) but to shareholders ...dont expect any payouts and dividends anytime soon.

So Amazon is keeping all the money ...thanks.

They have well documented poor staff relations and work practices. It seems also a poor attitude to their stockholders as well.

In short ...Stop buying useless stuff on the net you don't need while bored under the Covid lockdown.

randd1 · 15-05-2020 04:46PM

Ipso wrote: »

The cheek of them, if it weren't for their ignorance they could be like Cuba or Venezuela.

Both of which have been pushed into poverty by American embargo's and trade policies against over-bearing dictatorships. And even at that, America is heading down their route in terms of poverty of the lower classes and the elite having all the wealth and power.

Or they could be like European countries that do have both capitalism and socialism.

And by socialism, I actually mean social democracy, not communism (á la Cuba) or wannabe communism dressed up as democracy with rigged elections (á la Venezuela).

One eyed Jack · 15-05-2020 04:57PM

Corben Dallas wrote: »

In short ...Stop buying useless stuff on the net you don't need while bored under the Covid lockdown.

Their online shopping is only a pittance of their actual revenue. They generate the greater amount of their revenue from their cloud services -

State of the cloud: Amazon Web Services is bigger than its other four major competitors, combined

ceadaoin. · 15-05-2020 05:37PM

I've definitely been using Amazon more than usual during all this. Especially for groceries which I hadn't done before. Having Amazon prime has been a lifesaver, probably literally in some cases. They are offering a useful service , not sure what the problem is.

4068ac1elhodqr · 15-05-2020 07:42PM

Amazon paid an effective (negative) -1.2% tax rate of in 2018 for the $11.8bn pre-tax profit in the US (where 21% is the standard federal rate)...
Clever accounting, tax rebates and diversion of cash into 'infrastructre' projects.
This means a single individual subscriber to Prime, paid more taxes than their corporation that year.

https://thumbor.forbes.com/thumbor/960x0/https%3A%2F%2Fblogs-images.forbes.com%2Fniallmccarthy%2Ffiles%2F2019%2F02%2F20190218_Amazon_Tax.jpg/
No wonder he's loaded!

Many coffee chains do the same, snapping/pushing out up small independent stores 'investments' with their pre-tax profits to avoid taxes on net profit.
Starmucks paid an effective 2.8% rate for their uk's operation 2017 with profit of $213m. They dispute that, but the FT report, disputes their dispute.

completedit · 16-05-2020 12:07PM

Dravokivich wrote: »

You use his services. You give out about him making money because a lot of people use his services. Especially during this recent issue of Covid-19 when there's less access to shops.

Ok, so as I asked earlier what are you getting at? Oh... so your "he's getting rich because of covid-19" fell flat because it turns out, you're contributing to it. You start to lead into social issues and wage issues that we won't have a say in. And is pretty much a systemic issue in the USA, that extends beyond any number of popular shops/websites. They've a society and market setup that requires multiple incomes into a household.

But how is that Bezo's fault? With Amazon been given more money by you. During this?

I believe those working for Amazon should receive a fairer slice of the pie. The gap between CEO and worker has sky rocketed since the 1980s'. We are on course to a new feudalism. I can like the products and even admire Bezos, but how come a man who has stated 'there isn't enough philanthropic efforts in the world for me to spend my money on' can't provide a better income for the people who work for him who contribute to the success of the company.

Capt'n Midnight · 16-05-2020 01:30PM

Muahahaha wrote: »

Though now hes worth some $130bn it would be nice to hear he's going to go down the Bill Gates/Mark Zuckerburg route and do something useful with it.

He donated a $0.25 of a million to support bookshops affected by covid 19 closures.

Out of the $24,000 million increase in his wealth during the same time.
It would be like one of us getting a bonus of €1,000 and giving 1c back.

He's getting paid billions by the government for rocket research despite not demonstrating anything that couldn't have been done by using the control system from the 1993 DC-X on a WWII V2.

This is a tenuous link but it's more about the mentality of billionaires than anything else.
He also owns the Washington Post which doesn't doesn't pay Trump the homage The Donald thinks he deserves. So because Amazon relies on the US Postal Service Trump has decreed that it set aside insane amounts of money now to cover all future pension requirements even though private companies don't have to do it. Trump is pricing the service that rural America needs out of reach because of a unrelated spat.

Amazon, Jeff Bezos and Billionaires, we're through the looking glass people!

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