Sending a battery by post issue.

Diabhalta · 23-04-2018 7:00pm #1

I really don't know what is going on here. Things like this want me to move to another planet and never come back. Seriously, I would love to do that if I could.

Ordered a phone on ebay, advertised as new, came in an opened box with broken seal, so I am telling the seller I want to return it. He sent me link with a DHL label, didn't work so he sent me money to cover the postage back.

Sent from Germany using DHL, handed over to me by An Post. No issues apparently.

Now I went to the post office today and wanted to send the phone back to Germany. 18 euro registered. So then she asked me what's in it, and I said phone. So I have been told that there is a battery in it and it could be destroyed (or something like that) so I should use courier for that.

First of all couriers are charging insane amount of money to send this packet.
Parcel2go, interesting that the Express service is cheaper than the economy. No way I am using couriers. What a joke:

2018-04-23_17.36.17.jpg

One of the prohibited items are batteries.

So what's going on here? I ordered a phone with a battery in it and I can't send it back? Ebay is full of listings with various batteries available to buy. Few months back I ordered 8 rechargeable AA batteries, arrived ok. Then I ordered an RC car kit, big battery pack included. Arrived ok. Obviously there is no issue with batteries being sent by post.

What to do now? I can go to the post office again and lie about the contents. Just whatever, sending car parts or something like that. I really have to get my money back and in order to do that I have to send the phone back.

I ordered a different phone, brand new this time from Amazon. It's on the way and of course it will arrive.

punisher5112 · 23-04-2018 7:04pm

Try parcel motel.

I've tried so many and they won't touch lithium ion but of course will deliver to you but not back out of the country.

Diabhalta · 23-04-2018 7:05pm

Parcel motel is Nightline couriers. Parcel motel is only within Ireland or Ireland->UK.

whiterebel · 23-04-2018 7:59pm

Lithium ion batteries are prohibited on aircraft, which An Post may use. The reason is they can go on fire, and burn up to 1200 degrees, which you can’t put out in the hold. TNT and UPS will probably have it on their prohibited article list too. All of them will probably x-ray the contents, and if they find that you have deliberately mis-declared the contents you will have a serious problem.

L1011 · 23-04-2018 8:01pm

The person sending it to you didn't declare the battery. Don't repeat the lie.

Lithium batteries need to be shipped properly or there are fatal consequences

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UPS_Airlines_Flight_6

(note the other forum I mod...)

CeilingFly · 23-04-2018 8:55pm

Batteries are prohibited from aircraft unless they are sent as hazardous cargo and the big specialist couriers will have systems for this, but postal services (most of Europe) don't.

Dhl (who own German post system) send bulk parcels to Ireland from Germany via road and sea, thus no restrictions. Similarly, Amazon ship bulk parcels to An Post via road / sea for onwards delivery by an post.

Your options are gls parcel shop or dpd, both of whom provide a road/sea service to Europe

Diabhalta · 24-04-2018 7:33pm

L1011 wrote: »

The person sending it to you didn't declare the battery. Don't repeat the lie.

Lithium batteries need to be shipped properly or there are fatal consequences

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UPS_Airlines_Flight_6

(note the other forum I mod...)

So somebody loads 81,000 lithium batteries in scorching Dubai and it all catches fire minutes after. As a result lithium batteries are banned. How many other cases are out there? Zero? Genius, can't send even one battery anymore. Well done mankind, what a fail.

Obviously it's not an issue to send few batteries by plane, but 81,000 is a problem. How about nobody sends 81,000 batteries from Dubai anymore?

I messaged seller and told him that he needs to organize transport, this isn't my problem after all.

L1011 · 24-04-2018 7:46pm

Diabhalta wrote: »

So somebody loads 81,000 lithium batteries in scorching Dubai and it all catches fire minutes after. As a result lithium batteries are banned. How many other cases are out there? Zero? Genius, can't send even one battery anymore. Well done mankind, what a fail.

Obviously it's not an issue to send few batteries by plane, but 81,000 is a problem. How about nobody sends 81,000 batteries from Dubai anymore?

I messaged seller and told him that he needs to organize transport, this isn't my problem after all.

That's the extreme example. Lithium fires in flight have happened multiple times. And external heat is basically irrelevant.

They shouldn't have ever been carried by air in the first place.

whiterebel · 24-04-2018 9:12pm

Diabhalta wrote: »

So somebody loads 81,000 lithium batteries in scorching Dubai and it all catches fire minutes after. As a result lithium batteries are banned. How many other cases are out there? Zero? Genius, can't send even one battery anymore. Well done mankind, what a fail.

Obviously it's not an issue to send few batteries by plane, but 81,000 is a problem. How about nobody sends 81,000 batteries from Dubai anymore?

I messaged seller and told him that he needs to organize transport, this isn't my problem after all.

An iPad caught fire on a plane into London this week. Qantas will not allow any Lithium Ion batteries into the cargo hold in tablets, phones or laptops.
And its not the heat, Lithium reacts under pressure.

https://avherald.com/h?article=4b73f5a8&opt=0

JohnC. · 25-04-2018 7:43am

The entire Boeing 787 fleet was grounded after several incidents, some on the ground, some needing emergency landings, with the planes own batteries, until that was fixed. They were lithium ion too. This stuff isn't a joke or PC gone mad.

[Deleted User] · 25-04-2018 6:00pm

I didnt know this!!

Ive a drill ordered from Wickes in the UK that has 2 Lithium batteries. I used an Post's Address Pal. Does this mean that I wont be receiving my drill?

whiterebel · 25-04-2018 6:02pm

TheTorment wrote: »

I didnt know this!!

Ive a drill ordered from Wickes in the UK that has 2 Lithium batteries. I used an Post's Address Pal. Does this mean that I wont be receiving my drill?

They check the parcels, I think, so they will probably reject it. They have missed things in the past, or maybe send it over by truck instead.

punisher5112 · 25-04-2018 8:34pm

I bought loads of Hilti drills and used address pal no issues it's a strange one as they were aware of what it was coming over.

magentis · 25-04-2018 8:54pm

TheTorment wrote: »

I didnt know this!!

Ive a drill ordered from Wickes in the UK that has 2 Lithium batteries. I used an Post's Address Pal. Does this mean that I wont be receiving my drill?

I just got a laptop battery today via addresspal from Amazon,there was a huge 8" x 6" sticker on it stating it had a lithium ion battery in it and "do not ship if package is damaged".I got it without issue,it was clearly labelled.Adresspal takes so long I reckon they must send by truck and ferry.

I also got a large anker power bank this time last year,again clearly labelled and no issues.Im fairly sure you will get your drill without a problem.

tnegun · 25-04-2018 9:01pm

I use address pal for batterys all the time. Are they prohibitied too? I thought I read on here somewhere that they ship by road/ferry. Edit: As the poster above says the packages always have the warning sticker on them too so must be ok.

cormie · 11-05-2020 9:09am

Hey, I'm in the same boat here at the moment. Parcel2go prohibiting batteries, as well as an post.

I've checked parceldirect.ie and I think they ok batteries if you print a label saying the package has a battery, but still about €17 just to send a tiny padded envelope

This seems a bit cheaper: https://gls-group.eu/IE/en/occasional-shipment/shipping-calculator

From what I know DPD don't accept occasional deliveries and you need an account with them and may need a minimum volume of sending per year?

Any other solutions?

EDIT: Looks like DPD do low volume here: https://shipping.dpd.ie/

But it's coming in more pricey than GLS to UK at least.

L1011 · 11-05-2020 9:15am

You can do a outbound send with DPD using ParcelWizard I think, drop it off at the nearest agent.

cormie · 11-05-2020 9:28am

Thanks, I actually posted an edit on my post just after your reply. DPD do low volume shipping, and I See they offer a "return" option through the parcel wizard account.

For just regular shipping though, they seem more expensive than GLS, but if you go to the "returns" option on parcel wizard, there does seem to be some codes in the "retailerl list" that look like they are options for deliveries not assigned to any retailer, with prices starting from €8, but I'm not sure how they will work.

EDIT: I rang DPD PW and they said those options are for amazon/amazon resellers and the guy just advised to go to shipping.dpd.ie

paddy19 · 11-05-2020 1:12pm

whiterebel wrote: »

Lithium ion batteries are prohibited on aircraft, which An Post may use. The reason is they can go on fire, and burn up to 1200 degrees, which you can’t put out in the hold. TNT and UPS will probably have it on their prohibited article list too. All of them will probably x-ray the contents, and if they find that you have deliberately mis-declared the contents you will have a serious problem.

This is a not a safety issue. Many postal services allow the shipment
by air of a mobile phone containing a lithium ion battery.

The reason An Post don't want to ship batteries is because they
would have to get into risk assessment and that
would take extensive training and time.

The regulations are more complex than an outright ban.

The IATA which represents the airlines has published a detailed guide.
which references UN3481 - PI967.

The regulation only applies to batteries Cells >20 and Batteries > 100 Wh
UN3481 PI 967 Section I IMP: RLI.

Mobiles phone tend to be measured in mWh so 5,000 mWh = 5 Wh.

Background:
"The International Air Transport Association (IATA) is the trade association for the world’s airlines, representing some
290 airlines or 82% of total air traffic.
We support many areas of aviation activity and help formulate industry policy on critical aviation issues."

For some light reading see attached.

whiterebel · 11-05-2020 2:37pm

Li-on Batteries are on the An Post prohibited article list. They are Hazardous Items for most if not all of the couriers. Nobody is going to go into that level of detail per case, unless they are shipping them on a regular basis.

paddy19 · 11-05-2020 3:12pm

whiterebel wrote: »

Li-on Batteries are on the An Post prohibited article list. They are Hazardous Items for most Or not all of the couriers. Nobody is going to go into that level of detail per case, unless they are shipping Them on a regular basis.

"They are Hazardous Items for most Or not all of the couriers."

I think it's good to accurate about these type of issues.

Inaccurate global statements undermine science.

One Li-ion battery in a mobile phone is not a hazardous item according to the airlines and they should know.

An Post do not want to do risk assessments that's why they won't take batteries.

I have no problem with An Post or any other courier not wanting to get into risk assessment
but that is a different issue than claiming it's a hazard to aircraft.

whiterebel · 11-05-2020 4:46pm

paddy19 wrote: »

"They are Hazardous Items for most Or not all of the couriers."

I think it's good to accurate about these type of issues.

Inaccurate global statements undermine science.

One Li-ion battery in a mobile phone is not a hazardous item according to the airlines and they should know.

An Post do not want to do risk assessments that's why they won't take batteries.

I have no problem with An Post or any other courier not wanting to get into risk assessment
but that is a different issue than claiming it's a hazard to aircraft.

Here's accurate for you. You need hazardous labels and/or paperwork for lithium-ion batteries to travel by air cargo. The is a risk of fire when they are subjected to pressure.

Inaccurate twaddle endangers people.

runawaybishop · 11-05-2020 6:34pm

cormie wrote: »

Hey, I'm in the same boat here at the moment. Parcel2go prohibiting batteries, as well as an post.

I've checked parceldirect.ie and I think they ok batteries if you print a label saying the package has a battery, but still about €17 just to send a tiny padded envelope

This seems a bit cheaper: https://gls-group.eu/IE/en/occasional-shipment/shipping-calculator

From what I know DPD don't accept occasional deliveries and you need an account with them and may need a minimum volume of sending per year?

Any other solutions?

EDIT: Looks like DPD do low volume here: https://shipping.dpd.ie/

But it's coming in more pricey than GLS to UK at least.

Doubtful your phone has a battery, it's probably just a cell or two and is legal to ship. An post don't care though, or don't understand.

runawaybishop · 11-05-2020 6:37pm

whiterebel wrote: »

Here's accurate for you. You need hazardous labels and/or paperwork for lithium-ion batteries to travel by air cargo. The is a risk of fire when they are subjected to pressure.

Inaccurate twaddle endangers people.

Phones don't usually have batteries. Even if they do it's just a simple label. I have shipped hundreds of phones via couriers to tens of countries, and had them shipped back.

paddy19 · 11-05-2020 7:25pm

whiterebel wrote: »

Here's accurate for you. You need hazardous labels and/or paperwork for lithium-ion batteries to travel by air cargo. The is a risk of fire when they are subjected to pressure.

Inaccurate twaddle endangers people.

https://imgur.com/a/gZePo4k

The International Air Transport Association (IATA) is the trade association
for the world’s airlines, representing some 290 airlines

IATA LBSG (Lithium Battery Shipping Guidelines). Costs $199.

UN3481 - PI967 Lithium Cells / Batteries contained in equipment

Per cell: ≤ 20Wh
Per battery: ≤ 100Wh

≤ 2 batteries or 4 cells
≤ 2 packages per
consignment

Required marks and labels: No Requirements

They put a lot of work into developing extensive and expensive twaddle.

L1011 · 11-05-2020 7:27pm

Moved to Couriers, local rules apply

cormie · 11-05-2020 7:51pm

runawaybishop wrote: »

Doubtful your phone has a battery, it's probably just a cell or two and is legal to ship. An post don't care though, or don't understand.

Can you expand on this please? It's actually an old phone I've sold on ebay, I believe this is the battery that's in it: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Original-Motorola-XT890-RAZR-XT907-Droid-XT901-Electrify/dp/B01DA0G8GQ

Are you saying this isn't a battery, but a cell, and therefore, is ok to ship with an post? So if I go to them and ask for registered post and they ask is there a battery in it, and I say no, I'm technically not lying?

whiterebel · 11-05-2020 9:37pm

paddy19 wrote: »

https://imgur.com/a/gZePo4k

The International Air Transport Association (IATA) is the trade association
for the world’s airlines, representing some 290 airlines

IATA LBSG (Lithium Battery Shipping Guidelines). Costs $199.

UN3481 - PI967 Lithium Cells / Batteries contained in equipment

Per cell: ≤ 20Wh
Per battery: ≤ 100Wh

≤ 2 batteries or 4 cells
≤ 2 packages per
consignment

Required marks and labels: No Requirements

They put a lot of work into developing extensive and expensive twaddle.

You say its not a safety issue for An Post, yet here you are quoting the DHL DGR. Just FYI, DGR means Dangerous Goods Regulations. That should have been your first hint. The fact it has a UN number means it is dangerous.

Seeing as you are so fond of mentioning IATA, here is a line from their page on Lithium batteries:
“Though widely used, most people are not aware that lithium batteries are dangerous goods that can pose a safety risk if not prepared in accordance with the transport regulations”

Thay have 27 pages on the guidlelines on how to handle shipments containing LI batteries by air, and you reckon its not a safety issue? They have another 6 page document about these batteries in passenger cabins.

In some cases you can ship Hazarous cargo on passenger planes, but in limted quantites. Still hazardous, but only allowed to ship tiny amounts. This is the same, but the DGR label must still be shown on it, which is why you see ones on computers etc. Someone would have to be responsible to know the exact amount quantity, packing, and specs for the batteries for the aircraft, thats why they wont ship them. If there are no declarations, and no markings you could get 200 packages with LI batteries inside and no-one would be aware of it.

whiterebel · 11-05-2020 9:38pm

This thread is now in the Couriers forum which expressly forbids talk of getting around prohibitions, so this thread is going to be cleaned up and locked. Anyone new to this forum please familiarise yourself with the charter and the stickies.

paddy19 · 11-05-2020 10:50pm

The UN transport regulation specifically states that a Li-Ion battery in a single mobile phone does not require labelling as a hazardous material.

An Post do not ban batteries because they are hazardous but because they do not want to have to do risk easements in every sub post office in the land.

That's all I said, nothing more , nothing less.

cormie · 11-05-2020 11:00pm

Can someone clear that up before locking please? That's twice now it's been stated that a mobile phone wouldn't qualify as dangerous or even a battery, but is more regarded as a cell and safe to post? So would it therefore be truthful to declare that what I'm posting does not have a battery if I'm only posting a phone?

Sending a battery by post issue.

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