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The UK response to Covid-19 [MOD WARNING 1ST POST]

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,061 ✭✭✭Enzokk


    The Guardian has a page for those that work in the NHS and support staff who has died from coronavirus,

    Doctors, nurses, porters, volunteers: the UK health workers who have died from Covid-19

    It is really sad reading through this, but at the same time with some of those that died it is infuriating if this is what happened,
    Andy Howe, 48

    Andy Howe worked on the Medilink service, which took NHS workers and patients to hospital. He died on the way to hospital after falling ill, his employer said.

    A spokesman for the RMT union said: “We are saddened by the news of Andy’s passing. “We’re also angered by the reports we have received about a lack of duty of care for Andy, his colleagues and the wider public.”

    He said this included reports of toilets and buses not being cleaned properly, and a lack of protective screens or masks.

    Thomas Harvey, 57

    Thomas Harvey caught the coronavirus and died after treating patients with only gloves for protection, according to his family.

    It is claimed Harvey fell ill after helping a patient who later tested positive for Covid-19 and eventually died on 29 March. He had been signed off work more than two weeks earlier when he developed symptoms including a cough, shortness of breath and body aches.

    His family said that if he had had the correct personal protective equipment, he might still be alive. Goodmayes hospital claimed there were “no symptomatic patients on the ward”. However, a former colleague told the BBC that Harvey contracted the virus after treating a patient who later tested positive.

    John Alagos, 23

    John Alagos is believed to be the youngest medic in the UK to die from coronavirus. His mother, Gina Gustilo, said her son fell ill during a 12-hour shift but was allegedly not allowed to return home due to short-staffing.

    She told the Mail on Sunday: “I asked: ‘Why didn’t you come home?’ He said he had asked other staff but they said they were short of staff and they did not let him go.”

    Rebecca Mack, 29

    Rebecca Mack, from Morpeth in Northumberland, had worked as a children’s nurse at Newcastle’s Royal Victoria Infirmary before going on to a job with NHS 111. She had no known health problems, and fell ill after a work training session in Derby.

    She was self-isolating alone at her home when her symptoms worsened. Mack called for an ambulance and left the door open for paramedics. They found her dead in her home, her mother, Marion, told the Newcastle Chronicle.

    Julie Omar, 52

    A highly experienced trauma and orthopaedic nurse, Julie Omar had been self-isolating at home after developing symptoms, Worcestershire acute hospitals NHS trust said. Her condition deteriorated and she died at home.

    Amor Padilla Gatinao, 50

    Amor Padilla Gatinao had worked in the NHS for 18 years, and her husband, Mario, said he believed she caught the virus while working at St Charles hospital. Speaking to Sky News, he said: “Our youngest child is 14 years old and it is so hard. The pain is unbearable.

    “I called the ambulance and they came to the house but refused to admit her to the hospital. They told her to take paracetamol. Her whole body was in pain. She couldn’t eat. She was diabetic and also had a heart condition.

    “I don’t know why the government did not do more to protect NHS workers, like my wife. She was neglected. My children’s lives will never be the same again.”

    Three of those 6 cases seem to be due to a shortage or incorrect use of PPE, the other three will not be recorded in the UK Government figures as they died at home.


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 43,904 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Enzokk wrote: »
    Three of those 6 cases seem to be due to a shortage or incorrect use of PPE, the other three will not be recorded in the UK Government figures as they died at home.
    Potential lawsuits?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,058 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    meeeeh wrote: »
    They didn't ask for charity, he wanted to do it.

    NHS a monstrosity of an organization and there were warnings before that it is very hard to run such a huge system efficiently. Cuts are nowhere near the only reason there are issues with NHS. Part of the problem is that NHS is such a national treasure beyond reproach. Nobody managed to look across borders and see better health systems in Europe ran with less money. This crisis just exposed the deficiencies more.

    The NHS seems to be handling the crisis pretty well. There seems to be plenty of capacity left if required.

    PPE is a major problem, but correct me if I'm wrong, but is that not the case everywhere?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,023 ✭✭✭✭Joe_ Public


    bilston wrote: »
    The NHS seems to be handling the crisis pretty well. There seems to be plenty of capacity left if required.

    PPE is a major problem, but correct me if I'm wrong, but is that not the case everywhere?

    Does seem to be doing alright in the circumstances to be fair. Everywhere is experiencing problems to a certain extent. The care homes sector seems to have borne the biggest brunt, though, they pretty much seem to have been left fend for themselves while they scrambled to plug the leaks in the nhs. Priorities, i guess.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,349 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    Raab is Minister for Foreign Affairs.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,612 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    bilston wrote: »
    The NHS seems to be handling the crisis pretty well. There seems to be plenty of capacity left if required.

    PPE is a major problem, but correct me if I'm wrong, but is that not the case everywhere?

    Not everywhere is as bad with PPE or testing. There is a difference between having capacity and effectively managing the system so it's responsive enough. The chances of getting out of icu are more than 50/50 (uk) in some more successful countries. More people die more capacity remains in the system. It's blindingly obvious that even under reporting and late reporting (sometimes for weeks) can't bring down high death numbers.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,023 ✭✭✭✭Joe_ Public


    Newsnight touched on the big issue re testing earlier.

    January - Germany and UK working together to develop a diagnostic testing kit.

    Somewhere a policy decision was taken to stop cooperating and it was decided PHE would develop its own test. This then put them about a month behind the Germans.

    12 March - Chris Witty announces at press briefing that they wont be doing any community or contact trace testing but concentrating on hospitals instead.

    Couple of big decisions taken there that are going to require answers before all this is done.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,349 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    The US also went with its own test but then that test failed. One wonders as to the dynamics of why this happened?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,023 ✭✭✭✭Joe_ Public


    Water John wrote: »
    The US also went with its own test but then that test failed. One wonders as to the dynamics of why this happened?

    Dont know in either case tbh. It doesnt necessarily imply anything dodgy but it does beg serious questions as these are decisions that bore huge implications and will have big effects on the uk's efforts to ease restrictions.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,108 ✭✭✭Christy42


    Dont know in either case tbh. It doesnt necessarily imply anything dodgy but it does beg serious questions as these are decisions that bore huge implications and will have big effects on the uk's efforts to ease restrictions.


    Even without anything dodgy it shows that focusing on trying to be the ones seen to solve every problem and actually solving the problem are very different things.

    They both a we are the best approach and utterly failed. This requires countries to work together which is not in the playbook of Boris and Trump.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,088 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    Are you serious?

    ---

    Two world wars and one world cup... need us more than we need them, don't mention the war... Brexit...

    Seriously? You're going back to the Saxons?

    Newsnight touched on the big issue re testing earlier.

    January - Germany and UK working together to develop a diagnostic testing kit.

    Somewhere a policy decision was taken to stop cooperating and it was decided PHE would develop its own test. This then put them about a month behind the Germans.

    12 March - Chris Witty announces at press briefing that they wont be doing any community or contact trace testing but concentrating on hospitals instead.

    Couple of big decisions taken there that are going to require answers before all this is done.

    That's why!

    British exceptionalism has again needlessly killed people.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,023 ✭✭✭✭Joe_ Public


    It's hard to say without knowing specific details. It will come out in the wash eventually, thats for sure.

    Thing I'd wonder is when and how strongly herd immunity strategy came to the fore as that could conceivably have led to them downgrading the importance of testing at a disastrously early stage. Everything goes back to that.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,954 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    I'm not sure that this is all down to downgrading the importance of testing. It could be the opposite.

    If you think testing is very important, and if you're a government motivated or influenced by nationalism and anti-globalism, you'll think it very important that your country should have its own autonomous capacity to deliver tests (make ventilators, produce PPE . . .). Hence you'll avoid international co-operation on these matters, and prefer to channel your resources into a stand-alone effort.

    I don't know, to be honest, to what extent this has influenced the UK approach, but I wouldn't discount the possiblity that it has.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,276 ✭✭✭Memnoch


    NHS trusts have been giving guidance to doctors to dissuade them from writing Covid-19 on death certificates.

    https://goodlawproject.org/covid-19-deaths/
    Doctors are asked to use the standard MCCD (Medical Certificate of Cause of Death) form to certify death. ‘Pneumonia ‘or ‘community acquired pneumonia’ are acceptable at 1(a) on the MCCD. There is no requirement to write COVID 19 as part of the MCCD. It may be mentioned at 1(b) on the form, should the doctor wish.

    I don't see how anyone can still have even an iota of doubt that the British government are deliberately suppressing the true mortality statistics of this pandemic.

    You would expect something like this in Russia or Brazil, not the in UK.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,088 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    Memnoch wrote: »
    NHS trusts have been giving guidance to doctors to dissuade them from writing Covid-19 on death certificates.

    https://goodlawproject.org/covid-19-deaths/



    I don't see how anyone can still have even an iota of doubt that the British government are deliberately suppressing the true mortality statistics of this pandemic.

    You would expect something like this in Russia or Brazil, not the in UK.

    No, I would expect it from "this" UK.

    They are the equivalent of those oligarchical societies now.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,921 ✭✭✭Quantum Erasure


    Driving to take a walk is lawful during England lockdown, police told

    ‘Reasonable excuses’ also include moving house, buying luxuries and essential repairs
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/16/driving-for-exercise-allowed-under-lockdown-rules-police-advised-coronavirus

    Driving to the countryside and walking – where more time is spent doing the latter than the former – is among a list of reasonable excuses for Britons leaving their home during the coronavirus lockdown, according to advice issued to police.

    A document published by the National Police Chiefs’ Council (NPCC) and the professional standards body the College of Policing says public statements made soon after the adoption of the lockdown regulations suggested members of the public could leave their homes only if “essential” to do so.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,931 ✭✭✭PommieBast


    For some strange reason https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/uk/ now shows N/A under recovered for UK. Have they actually stopped reporting this figure..?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,061 ✭✭✭Enzokk


    Memnoch wrote: »
    NHS trusts have been giving guidance to doctors to dissuade them from writing Covid-19 on death certificates.

    https://goodlawproject.org/covid-19-deaths/



    I don't see how anyone can still have even an iota of doubt that the British government are deliberately suppressing the true mortality statistics of this pandemic.

    You would expect something like this in Russia or Brazil, not the in UK.


    Unless they have not been counting the deaths in hospital from patients who has tested positive of the virus and were suffering from pneumonia and who died consequently because the death certificate doesn't state Covid-19, then no problem.

    So who will be asked to confirm this? Matt Hancock who denied he set a target for 25 000 tests per day by the middle of April when his department said exactly this? This is the problem when you lose credibility when it comes to being open and transparent on facts, why should anyone believe anything from any minister in the UK?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,711 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    Memnoch wrote: »
    NHS trusts have been giving guidance to doctors to dissuade them from writing Covid-19 on death certificates.

    https://goodlawproject.org/covid-19-deaths/



    I don't see how anyone can still have even an iota of doubt that the British government are deliberately suppressing the true mortality statistics of this pandemic.

    You would expect something like this in Russia or Brazil, not the in UK.

    Increase in all cause mortality is the figure that matters. 59% more deaths in the U.K. than expected first 14 weeks of this year, or 25k+

    That’s the impact of covid 19 in the U.K. that the authorities are desperately trying to suppress and misrepresent.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,831 ✭✭✭theological


    Driving to take a walk is lawful during England lockdown, police told

    ‘Reasonable excuses’ also include moving house, buying luxuries and essential repairs
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/16/driving-for-exercise-allowed-under-lockdown-rules-police-advised-coronavirus

    Driving to the countryside and walking – where more time is spent doing the latter than the former – is among a list of reasonable excuses for Britons leaving their home during the coronavirus lockdown, according to advice issued to police.

    A document published by the National Police Chiefs’ Council (NPCC) and the professional standards body the College of Policing says public statements made soon after the adoption of the lockdown regulations suggested members of the public could leave their homes only if “essential” to do so.


    I'm glad to see that this has been clarified. The police are meant to police what is law, they are not meant to police what goes beyond the law. For example the infamous drone footage from Derbyshire police. Everyone they attempted to shame in the video was actually acting within the law.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,644 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    It will come out in the wash eventually, thats for sure.

    This is the UK we are talking about! The truth won't come out until years after everyone responsible is safely dead.

    Think Iraq war, Hillsborough, Bloody Sunday.

    It is not in the interests of the couple of thousand Eton/Oxbridge types who run the Government, opposition, press and civil service that the public learns anything, ever, and the public think they are being looked after by the toffs and boffins who are good at that stuff so the public can watch the footie and fight outside clubs on a Saturday.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,160 ✭✭✭declanflynn


    This is the UK we are talking about! The truth won't come out until years after everyone responsible is safely dead.

    Think Iraq war, Hillsborough, Bloody Sunday.

    It is not in the interests of the couple of thousand Eton/Oxbridge types who run the Government, opposition, press and civil service that the public learns anything, ever, and the public think they are being looked after by the toffs and boffins who are good at that stuff so the public can watch the footie and fight outside clubs on a Saturday.
    As long as people are happy with that system it shouldn't be changed.
    Have you ever tried to help someone who doesn't want to be helped, its difficult and sometimes dangerous


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,023 ✭✭✭✭Joe_ Public


    This is the UK we are talking about! The truth won't come out until years after everyone responsible is safely dead.

    Think Iraq war, Hillsborough, Bloody Sunday.

    It is not in the interests of the couple of thousand Eton/Oxbridge types who run the Government, opposition, press and civil service that the public learns anything, ever, and the public think they are being looked after by the toffs and boffins who are good at that stuff so the public can watch the footie and fight outside clubs on a Saturday.

    Sorry but this isnt hundreds of soldiers or civilians dying somewhere else, its hundreds of uk citizens dying each day and, cynical as i am, that's not something that's going to be so easily whitewashed away. Of course it takes time. Leveson got there eventually for one anyway. I think blame game in this instance is going to be a dominant theme.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,644 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    its hundreds of uk citizens dying each day.

    They just aren't bulldog battlers like our Boris.

    Where's your British grit? We faced worse than this in the blitz.

    Anyway, Now Is Not The Time, it never is.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,023 ✭✭✭✭Joe_ Public


    Hancock before select health committee this morning.

    One good question, actually from a conservative mp.

    When setting up their testing PHE considered establishing a decentralised system, as the likes of Korea and Germany were doing, but then decided against it. Why? What was the available expert guidance that led them down that path, which they are now currently reversing?

    Of course hancock not going to shed any light on this. But these questions wont be going away.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,187 ✭✭✭FVP3


    Water John wrote: »
    Raab is Minister for Foreign Affairs.

    He is acting PM.

    Regardless why is publishing keeping the door open a good idea, politically? Sure the relatives of those are stuck abroad care, but its not going to be enthusiastically received by everybody else, are they even isolating people?


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,146 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    FVP3 wrote: »
    He is acting PM.

    Regardless why is publishing keeping the door open a good idea, politically? Sure the relatives of those are stuck abroad care, but its not going to be enthusiastically received by everybody else, are they even isolating people?

    Why do they need to isolate people like with the first evacuation flights from Wuhan?

    Everyone is isolating in their own homes now.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,671 ✭✭✭brickster69


    "if you get on the wrong train, get off at the nearest station, the longer it takes you to get off, the more expensive the return trip will be."



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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,187 ✭✭✭FVP3


    Thats insane alright, people if they are from the area could clap from their apartments , does the UK even have the 2km rule?


This discussion has been closed.
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